04-05-2002 18:48									#1
	Ctp Competition Rule Discussion.. Tired of ads?

We have a week to formalise the rules. The thread for the competition itself is here .

We know that cheating is not allowed

But everything else is still in the air.

Solvers decision will be final as regards the final rules, but we can discuss them first.

Pollution? The Consensus seems to be on
Wonders- most people that expressed an opinion seemed to think either no wonders or take the game breakers out.... ALTERNATIVELY could we allow the players of each game to decide?

The map? Is everyone happy with it??

Last edited by Solver on 04-05-2002 at 19:29

	04-05-2002 19:17									#2
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Yes! Post the rule suggestions here.

The main question, IMO, is about the wonders - are we leaving them on, or not, or some?

As for pollution, I have already decided, and most will agree that it should be on. Unless something really out of order happens, I think we'll have it remain so.

The map - I am happy with it, bet the others are, too.

	04-05-2002 19:51									#3
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A thought as to wonders:

If you choose on a game-by-game basis it will be unfair to whoever chooses first, since they are bound to pick London Exchange, etc. and then the second chooser can eliminate those which are useful against his tactics.

You could of course have both players send their choices to a third party, but that slows things down.

An alternative is this: Each player chooses before the competition the 4 (or 5 or whatever) wonders which they want excluded in all their games. That way everything is set beforehand, and it might do more to make the games varied too, sinceight be a couple of games where the London Exchange is not excluded because both players thought it was OK to play with.

	04-05-2002 22:31									#4
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I think that if we exclude some, we should exclude all. Wonders are too one sided. It is part of the game, and yet, for the league, to keep an even possibility between the sides,(and an objective game) having wonders would screw with that. I have not seen the map yet, but it is exactly the same? If so, then the main deciding factor for those first few wonders is who starts on them first. Later, as the cities growth makes differences between size and production, that will not matter. But, for those first few turns, if the host really wants the wonder, then he will get it. It can only be had by one person, so I say no. Wonders is only a small strategy that we can probably do without, for the sake of the better ones that it would undermine.

	04-05-2002 22:37									#5
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No problem about not being able to get on. When would you like to continue? I graduate highschool next friday( ) so for the two weeks until I head for basic training, I can play 24/7 League games and any regular games. But then of course, I will be out of the loop for 6 weeks while I experience hell. After that I will be able to play all I need to. So, when do you want to continue? I have all day today.

	04-05-2002 22:54									#6
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Patryn: i get around 120 kb/s

i have an xp2000+ cpu so i really hope it aint that which is stalling the downloads


about the rules:

i say pollution on
wonders: take away the most game breakers (but its a part of the game and shouldnt be completely excluded)

map: dunno as i havent seen it yet bcz i dont have gotten an iso yet

	05-05-2002 00:11									#7
	Re: Ctp Competition Rule Discussion.. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka We have a week to formalise the rules. The thread for the competition itself is here . We know that cheating is not allowed But everything else is still in the air. Solvers decision will be final as regards the final rules, but we can discuss them first. Pollution? The Consensus seems to be on Wonders- most people that expressed an opinion seemed to think either no wonders or take the game breakers out.... ALTERNATIVELY could we allow the players of each game to decide? The map? Is everyone happy with it??

Been a while for me so I've missed what has been happening with this tourney. What are the settings for the map? Size, land/ocean, goods, barbarians? When can we get a copy to test/review? How are you going to keep people from using the rush buy/rush PW tricks?

For rules, are we playing "anything goes"? Piracy/pillaging, etc...? For wonders, is it possible to use a vote by the players? If so, I vote for NO wonders at all except for gaia theory, worm hole and nanite defuser. For pollution, it should not be an issue. However, for any of the players that have made it past nukes in a MP game, the pollution problem becomes HUGE. Almost a game stopper. I have found it's best just to leave pollution out to help eliminate more of the luck factor. And, if it is turned off, you don't need to have the Gaia theory wonder.

How many settlers/gold for starting? I also vote for no barbarians as once again, they introduce more luck than skill into the game. You get barbarians, you get slaves... while the other person may not. With the preset map, will all ruins be removed? (hope so)

When will the tourney be starting? How long will we have to play our games? What is the format? I'm sure I'll have another 100 questions, but hopefully this will be a good start. Thanks again for putting this on.

Yoda

	05-05-2002 00:33									#8
	game rules Remove this text

Oh yes, one more thing. Has anyone given some thoughts to house rules? Things like making a rule that SOL's can't bombard cities. Also, nukes can attack cities directly. These two rules in particular make for a much better game. SOL's are far too powerful in CTP which they solved in CTP2 (too bad it wasn't a better game). 2 or 3 nukes will completely wipe out any city no matter how large it is. Is this really the desired result?

yoda

	05-05-2002 02:16									#9
	game map Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, I went through the previous thread's posts and found the map. Exactly how do I go about using/viewing it? I should know, but since I've never used the map editor or run any scenarios...

Thanks.

	05-05-2002 12:24									#10
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These are my votes:
Pollution ON.
Wonders OFF.

Bug is in piracy, so my vote is no piracy.

I don't agree with Yoda about Sols. Some players play with that rule (Sols can't bombard cities), so they can expend their turns in building infraestructure and buildings without a serious danger from your enemy till the game is very advanced. I think this is not correct. You need to be scared of your enemy (he can be building a lot of sols) so you have to know where to build units and where you can waste some turns in other things. So my vote is Sols CAN bombard cities. This competition is to see who wins, not to play a very advanced game.

About wonders, I have seen some players want to play with them, so I purpose if we are going to play 2 games against each player that host decide if we play with or without, but giving the no-host the chance to exclude the most important of them which should be debated here.
Same with other settings like settlers and gold. For example settlers 3-7, gold 500-5000. So if I am host I can decide 5 settlers, 3000 gold and wonders on.

	05-05-2002 14:13									#11
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I like it - Catete your suggestions are ingenious- they become an 'Average' of the two players Strategy in EVERY game, - and yeh Point taken on no bombarding - it suits player who plays a longer game...

I think Solver that the rules should be in ranges.... like Start settlers 3 - 7 , gold 500 - 5000 . Each Player may select up to three units three wonders that are excluded- Or agree to exclude all wonders..

Piracy should be off yes, as it is so full of bugs.

Very very good post Catete... Now when can I kick your backside in game?

	05-05-2002 15:02									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Regarding the map:

If you want to see the version I posted before you should unzip it into ...\scenarios\Competition\ (IIRC... if that disagrees with what I posted before, then follow the other instructions) and then start up a single player (or hotseat) game, hitting select scenario.

I seem to recall that you originally wanted a version which was a descenarioified single player saved game. I have produced one of these via the /exportmap and /importmap commands, but in the process some of the goods got transmogrified (poppies into tobacco, etc.) If you still want this version then I'll sort it all out again, but if not then I won't waste my time.

So, do you want a SP saved game version?

	05-05-2002 15:06									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As for Piracy, I thought we have already decided - my decision is OFF - it's very powerful, and quite buggy.

As for Wonder, I will then give in to the demand, let's turn them off (especially taking in account the map). However, Wormhole MUST be left on (to have Alien victory), but then no Nanite Defuser and Gaia - if it's off, then it's off. How is this?

SOLS - I think let play as everyone wants with them.

quote: How are you going to keep people from using the rush buy/rush PW tricks?

Partially, moderation. But sure it's hard to know... we will largely HAVE to rely on the players' word... I hope that all the participiants here are fair and mature.

	05-05-2002 15:23									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka Very very good post Catete... Now when can I kick your backside in game?

NEVER ... but you can try it anyway today about 18'00 my time...

	05-05-2002 21:36									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka I think Solver that the rules should be in ranges.... like Start settlers 3 - 7 , gold 500 - 5000 . Each Player may select up to three units three wonders that are excluded- Or agree to exclude all wonders..

I don't have a problem with playing with SOL's bombarding. It was just a suggestions. However, Gav has brought up another point and that being "three units for exclusion". Why? I thought you said you were trying to find the best CTP player, not the best under certain senarios?

I do like the idea of "host gets choice" but with the modifications that certain exclusions can be requested by the non-host.

Finally, the map. And that's a big one. I can see how much work that has gone into making that map for this tourney and I would like to thank the maker... However, and please don't take this personally, I think the map is seriously flawed. Having "land bridges" and starting so close is designed specifically for a short, violent game. Is that the intent? Don't let people develop but throw them into conflict imediately? Reminds me of playing on "small" maps.

I am willing to put some time into creating an alternative map if the creator wouldn't mind a second map for the group to vote on. What I think would make a good map would be two large land masses at either pole (north/south on an earth world) as the starting positions. 4 to 6 islands in the middle. Goods would be about what you have except key monopoly completions would be on the islands in the middle. That way the player could try for a long game or make plans for an early invasion giving the variation to the game length and strategy.

Should I start editing an alternative map?

	05-05-2002 21:44									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't know... the intent surely was not a short game, but it might have been so. Yes, start working on an alternate map, if you really believe you should, but please try to be quick with it, and I would like it to be similar enough to the original - idnetical, with quite some land to colonize, and such.

	05-05-2002 22:03									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You have my permission to use my map for your league. Gavrushka previously mentiononed this map in the previous thread. It is the SYM4WAY_C map. I will try to attach it...

I can't attach the .csg file but here is a screen shot of one of the quandrants. Once you get sym4way_c.csg file... Copy the attachment it to your desktop, and double click it to view the map. Go to options -- cheat mode -- show map, to see the map.

Attachment: sym4way_c_map.doc
This has been downloaded 14 time(s).

	05-05-2002 22:05									#18
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Thanks Quinns . BTW it was already mentioned . I will have to see whether I prefer this to the map JBTW made.

	06-05-2002 06:21									#19
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hmmm i was quite impressed with the map he made(had my first look at it today)

As of the suggestions about more settlers and more gold

Well settlers only give more speed to the start of the game e g faster to ren etc.

But gold ONLY are tempting for the buy / switch trick

so my suggestions are:

Since we are playing for THE best Ctp player lets play how Civ is intended to be played

1 settler 100 gold


about piracy, i know its bugged, but how should you then prevent an monopoly? kill the cities trading, well the same bug gets there then too. The lost caravane etc

plz take this into consideration, either no trade(that would be stupid)

or else i cant see the difference about piracy and taking one of the cities trading (same bug will occure) And after all this game is also about protecting youre trade and if you cant protect it, you should neither be allowed to trade

well piracy is powerfull, but then you actually need to protect those trade routes, and also think about were to lay those routes (you can influence that on road building and city placements)

Any GOOD arguements for piracy off? well i for one cant see 1 as this is a essential part of a strategy game

	06-05-2002 08:20									#20
	New Map Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Solver Don't know... the intent surely was not a short game, but it might have been so. Yes, start working on an alternate map, if you really believe you should, but please try to be quick with it, and I would like it to be similar enough to the original - idnetical, with quite some land to colonize, and such.

Well, here is my first try. I made a mistake by making it a gigantic map, but it shows basically what I think would make for a very challenging game. Please have a look at it and let me know if I should spend the time making a similar map for a huge setting. I tried to make the goal of the map to give players the option of either war or the wormhole. That way it won't just be a slug fest.

Any comments/suggesting/criticism is welcome. After all, it's far easier to comment than it is to create. Also, I haven't set starting locations or any of that stuff... just worried about the map for now. Personally, because of the gigantic map (my mistake), I think there is too much land.

yoda

	06-05-2002 08:56									#21
	new map Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hmmm... I've already noticed some problems. Seems I've totally forgotten to put beach hexes along the coast... oops!

	06-05-2002 13:23									#22
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Quinns thank you- the sym4way map is superb - and encompasses all elements of the game! It forces players to make some very tough choices. Strategy runs amazingly deep on that map!

Yoda - I will have a look at the map later today!

Pin 100 gold 1 settler was the start against the AI - NOT for MP - thats why the options were allowed to be set when MP was released - If we started that way, games would be painful.... Piracy is off mot for strategy reasons, but due to the massive piracy bugs that were never addressed in MP - I know at least on player in this comp who plays on a Network who simply could not play if piracy was allowed - Once he has been pirated he can never set trade routes again!

	06-05-2002 13:45									#23
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I like yoda's idea of a map , the way ctp was meant to be played, two civs on the opposite side of the world, with many ways of going for a victory, where sea is not the only option. Ive played more games than anyone in the world, sad but true. I started playing with all wonders on then got rid of the big 4 then hagia and chicken itza and the "telescope one" then all of a sudden didnt play with any ever again. Pollution has too stay on cause sadly we will not get to a point where it actually is a game ender. It just adds some penalties to extra production. (remeber im the best at that). 2 or 3 settlers 2000 gold starting.
But 2 civs on teh opposite sides of the map is certainly important.
And you must scull a beer (or bottle of milk) for every city you lose just too add some difficutly to the competition lollololololol

	06-05-2002 14:22									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

It is true that the very best way to play CTP is to be as FAR apart as possible and meet in the middle somewhere.

I think on the maps Solver has to decide how we go foreward.

	06-05-2002 14:50									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Nice map Yoda!

	06-05-2002 15:02									#26
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I will take a look at all three later today. However, I do not want to have it decided myself, for this is the most crucial aspect. As I view them, I will start a new thread (poll) with all three attached.

	06-05-2002 18:16									#27
	CTP Symmetrical Four Way Map Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Here is the sym4way_c.csg map, zipped, if any of you are interested in seeing it. Thanks for the good words about it Gavrushka. If you all like it, feel free to use it.

Attachment: ctp_map.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	06-05-2002 22:05									#28
	newmap Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Solver I will take a look at all three later today. However, I do not want to have it decided myself, for this is the most crucial aspect. As I view them, I will start a new thread (poll) with all three attached.

I fixed the coast problem on this gigantic map and placed starting positions (challenging ones that is). I have also started on a huge map version in case the gigantic is too large/too much land. This new copy is attached.

yoda

	07-05-2002 01:03									#29
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Well i have always played with 3 settler start, but it actually only accelerate start.

You can call it dull, but 1 settler will make the game harder to play as you will stay in Ancient for a longer time(and it is the best player we wanna find right? that means best in all time periods and under the hardest conditions)

3 settlers start is np for me, more will only be riddiculouse as you get an way too fast start

Gold however i would VERY much like see god arguements for starting with much. As only way to prevent the buy/switch cheat in early game when its crucial is not to have Huts and NOT to start with more then 100 gold. Only other way to check for cheats are to check every save for maybe 150 turns and that would be a hell of a work.

So plz set the settlers at 1 but 3 wont be a problem for me at least

But PLZ DO NOT set gold higher then 100 as i and i assume the most would like to see an easy fix to the buy / switch trick. At least this is as close as you get to an fix.

	07-05-2002 04:05									#30
	Support Apolyton

Pin have you people in mind that you think will cheat?? There are a half dozen people prepared to check turns. I think there is a pretty strong community spirit here, and people want to win on ability I am sure - Any cheating will be uncovered, and possible dishonesty should not affect the rules - I personally try to save up to around 10,000 gold (as my strategy) to buy markets and banks, and obviously Granaries in High growth cities, changing my play style by starting with 100 gold just for the fear of somebody cheating I don't think is right. HOWEVER the start gold and settlers was handled very well by Catete- rather than a fixed amount - the settler/gold settings will be in a range- and in dipsute they should be an average of the two in my opinion.