 |
| |
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
 |
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
|
|
Just saw it and IT ROCKS
Empire Strikes Back: ****
A New Hope: ***1/2
Attack of the Clones: ***
Return of the Jedi: **1/2 (the 1/2 because of the end fight)
The Phantom Menace: **
(The third one I predict will be a ****)
Great story, and Hell, I didn't think the acting was THAT bad. From reading this thread I thought it would be utterly atrocious. It was ok acting, and great story telling.
I don't know what Tinkai is talking about : holes? It seems bloody obvious to me that Sideous (Sid-ees, as the Kaminoans called him), who of course is Palpatine, asked for this Clone Army to begin production when Darth Maul was killed. He took Dooku and made him into Darth Tyranus (So Yoda loses a Padawan to the Dark Side as Obi-Wan will).
The whole thing was staged. I don't recall at ALL Dooku looking surprised (I even looked for it). In fact, he seemed anything BUT suprised. Just part of the deal and he had to go and fulfill the plan.
One wonders why he'd tell Obi-Wan about the Republic being ruled by a Sith. Maybe it was so he could turn Kenobi into his apprentace and take over Sideous' role.
Great light saber duels, and yes the Jedi were about to be destroyed if the clones hadn't come in (that looked obvious too). And the Jedi knew about the clones because Yoda said he would go to Kamino and pick them up before he sent Windu to get Dooku/Tyranus.
Interesting/Fun parts:
When Palpatine/Sideous manipulated Jar-Jar into introducing the motion to give him Emergency Powers.
Obi Wan saying to Anakin - "Why do I get the feeling you are going to be the death of me". And who says the Jedi can't see into the future  .
The Imperial March being played at the end when the clones are being loaded onto the ships to try to finish off the seperatists.
And of course, Yoda's lightsabering.
And ESB was the best because the bad guys won . The ending was one of the best I've seen to a movie... and no other SW movie has been able to touch it.
Saying that, I liked the AOTC ending. Leaving it open.. having Anakin (very nicely showing off being bratty and independent) marrying Padme, a violation of Jedi code... with his mechanic hand... beginning the process and morphing into Darth Vader.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lonestar
|
 |
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
Mark, Mark, Mark
Hopefully the following explains it for yay.
Figures you'd do wishful thinking that the Federation would win, their commies, you're a Eurocommie....
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
btw, how many ships does the empire have? pretty few compared to the number of ships the Federation has. In the battle to retake DS9 the Federation had some 500 ships. The Dominion 1000. And these are 90% starships, not pesky little fighters like in Star Wars. |
By the Time of ROTJ, the Galactic Empire had constructed Imperial Star Destroyers.
Now, bear in mind, as the Lower Limit of the Galactic Empire is a million systems, not even that would be enough to keep a hold. Obviously, most of the fleet is going to be stationed in the Core Regions (Kuat, Coruscant, Corellia) than out in the boonies, where every damn movie in the original trilogy takes place. (cept for a brief visit to Alderaan).
In both TPM and AOTC, just from viewing the many thousands of ships leaving and entering Coruscant(in orbit) in the brief scenes that a orbital view is shown, there are more ship visiting the planet on a daily basis than the upperlimit of the Federation Starfleet.
Unlike the Star Trek Powers that Be(tm), Lucasfilm has strived to keep everything in continnuity and official.
Movies, and movie novelizations are "canon".
Books,"Tech Manuals", and Comic books are "Official" (Canon unless contradicted by movies)
Games are licensed, like the ST novels.
================
FTL speeds
The Empire laughs at your puny Warp Drive and "Transwarp", and "Quantum Tunneling".
Well, maybe not Transwarp. But both Quantum tunneling and warp.
----------------
The Borg
.....Are a bunch of pussies.
(1)Can they assimilate everything they come across? No. From www.stardestroyer.net :
First, the obvious question: is this really a myth? Or is it the reality of Star Trek? Well, it is pretty obviously a myth. The Borg were unable to assimilate Species 8472 life forms or bioships in "Scorpion". They were unable to assimilate Data when they captured him in STFC. The Hirogen border their territory and have resisted assimilation for thousands of years. The Dyson Sphere seen in "Relics" has undoubtedly been sitting around for millions of years, given the extent to which its star's aging process had progressed, yet it showed no signs of Borg encroachment. The Voth also border Borg territory, and appear to have no fear of Borg assimilation whatsoever. We have several concrete examples of their inability to assimilate biological life forms and/or technologies. Is any more evidence necessary? The Borg obviously cannot assimilate any and every life form or technology, and we have canon proof for this conclusion.
---------------
So, there's a good chance that the Borg may not even be able to assimilate the Empire, Stormtroopers not withstanding. Next up:
(2) The Borg can adapt and be impervious to anything.
This myth is clearly refuted by the canon films and episodes. In STFC, we see that although a Borg cube can become seemingly impervious to the weapons of a single Federation starship, it cannot withstand the massed attack of dozens of Federation starships. This demonstrates that Borg "adapted shield" lower limits are somewhere above the firepower of a GCS and below the massed firepower of a fleet containing dozens of Federation starships. We can also see Borg cubes being blasted into fragments by Species 8472 bio-ships and destroyed by simple planetary debris in "Scorpion". And of course, we all know that Borg drones are helpless against any sort of physical attack, whether it's the claws of Species 8472, the bullets of Picard's tommy-gun in STFC, a well-thrown elbow, or one of Worf's various artfully sculpted slicin' and dicin' toys.
-------
It's safe to say the Borg would be eaten for lunch by Imperial Warships.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
 |
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
|
|
All I have to say is that if the Galactic Empire can't beat a woefully underfunded, disorganized band of rebels within their own territority, then I don't think they'd be too successful against the Federation either. But that's over the length of a long war.
Numbers: Empire, easily. Their fleet is 25,000 ISDs minimum alone, not to mention the myriad of other capital ships. I think it would be safe to assume in any battle, the Empire would have sheer numerical superiority of ships.
Resources: Empire, again. The Empire has hundreds of thousands of worlds to provide raw materials. The Federation's resources would be miniscule compared to the Empire's.
Manpower: Empire, as there are quintillions in the Imperial galaxy. The sheer number of beings would dwarf the Feds. Also, the Empire has proven it has no problem hurling massed numbers against foes and taking huge casualties, especially with fighter pilots. The Emperor also has the ability to use his powers to focus his troops into a more efficient fighting force.
Firepower: Ship-to-ship, the consensus seems to be that the phasers of a Fed starship are more powerful than the Empire's turbolasers. Not sure how to prove that, though. In any event, on a 1:1 ratio we will say the Fed have more firepower in their weapons. BUT the ISDs have hundreds of turbolasers, whereas the Fed ships seem to have only one?
Maneuverability: Federation, hands down. Just look at the Defiant. No Imp capital ship could do that. The TIEs could, but they are shieldless cannonfodder.
Tactics: Um, well, the Empire seems to be pretty stupid tactics-wise. A lot of this has to do with cockiness I guess, but also with corruption within the military, I wager. Think the Feds would have an advantage here.
But here's the kicker:
The Imps are evil, the Feds are (relatively) good. Ergo of course the Feds will win, because in any Sci-Fi worth a darn, the good guys always win in the end. So, Feds win.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Lonestar
|
|
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Where do you pull this assumption from? Stormtroopers are human and the Borg have demonstrated no inability to assimilate humanity into the Collective. |
Oh? And the Borg are going to assimiltae them right through their armor, are they?
quote:
The Empire has demonstrated no ability to vary the energy frequency of thier weapons and as such thier laser weaponry would become ineffective after the initial assault. From that point on it would likely be Wolf 359 redux. |
Hold on here, the Imperials don't fire from one frequency. They fire energy weapons that cover a broad range of frequencies.
And, as I've already pointed out, the Borg cubes are anything but impervious. Go back and re-watch First Contact.
Boris
::shakes head::
Manueverablilty: So? God thing they have those, whattaya call it.... turrets! Besides, Imperial Star Destroyers are built to line up and slug it out with other big ships. Most ST ships are about 900 meters too short.
Tactics: Oh yeah, like the Federation is any better. The famous "Flying wall" routine.
Good wins:No cheating outta it!
and....
quote:
Yeah, but the Feds have Jean-Luc Picard, and Benjamin Sisko, and Chief O'Brien. They can't lose. |
You mean...a Frenchmen, a Cajun (Frenchman with hot sauce!), and a Irishman? Boy, those are winners....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Manueverablilty: So? God thing they have those, whattaya call it.... turrets! Besides, Imperial Star Destroyers are built to line up and slug it out with other big ships. Most ST ships are about 900 meters too short.
|
So? Take a lesson from history: The Spanish Armada. The English were outnumbered, even given the weather problems of the Spanish. The Spanish ships were regarded as the best things in the world, they had far more cannons and were much larger. The English whipped them--soundly--using smaller, more maneuverable craft with fewer guns (but had longer range).
I think the Defiant could easily take out an ISD without getting more than a few scratches, because the ISD's turrets wouldn't be able to hit it. (Notice how in RotJ the SSD's turrets couldn't even hit that damned A-Wing, even though Piett had ordered all the guns concentrated to protect the bridge tower. Also, given that the Imperials are always lousy shots--stormtroopers, anyone?--I don't think they have the aim to put holes in Swiss cheese).
And the "Line up and slug it out" tactic is what helped doom the Empire, as the Rebels figured out it was better to do hit and run, and to just evade them. Also, if they parked themselves directly in front of an ISD, the ISD loses about 80% of its firing power, as it can only use the forward turbolasers. The firing arch on the Fed phasers is, IIRC, 360 degrees.
And considering the Imps have Ozzel and Tarkin and those types, I think the Feds would be able to whip them man-to-man. And again, the Imps can't even shoot straight. The stormtroopers are supposedly the elite soldiers, and they couldn't hit the broadside of a Bantha.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
Oh? And the Borg are going to assimiltae them right through their armor, are they? |
Yes, why wouldn't they be able to do that? Let's be honest with ourselves here. The armor isn't that substantive which is embematic of the Empire's indifferent attitude toward the lives of thier men. In addition to that, they aren't the best shots in the world.
|
Well, going by the official stats of the RPG, the Stormtrooper armor is effective actually. Judging by those mechanics, the troopers who get shot in the films and fall aren't dead, merely wounded. The armor absorbs most of the blast, so it's just enough to knock them off their feet, maybe stun them for a bit. Naturally, that doesn't help the ones who fall into massive pits...
And it still doesn't explain their lousy aim.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lonestar
|
|
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
Boris
I hope that "Brahms" sig line refers to a chain of Ice Cream Stores in the South.
Anyway, where was I?
Star Destroyers were built under the assumption that rebelling systems and Sectors might use their defense fleets to fight them. Obviously, that didn't happen.
However over, you have to remember two things about why the SSD went down.
(1) When Palpatine was whacked by Vader, all thoseImperial servicemen suddenly had decreases in coordination. (Heir to the Empire) Why? Because the Emperor had been using the force to help fine-tune the Imperials sense for the Duration of the battle.
(2)Starfighters. The Empire has them in abundance, far more so than the Federation. Not only that, but they are smaller and far more manueverable than ST fighters, both from on-screen and other SW sources. Weapons might be heavier too, and could probaly cause the much vaunted Defiant (which, I might add, fell apart to the Breen version of the Ion Cannon) much trouble. Woot!
(3) I'd rather have a squad of Stormtroopers over Ensign Redshirt anyday.
(4) And considering the Federation has types like Picard and Janeway....hmmm....I'll take Grand Admiral Thrawn over a room full of Starfleet Admirals anyday.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lonestar
|
|
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Yes, why wouldn't they be able to do that? Let's be honest with ourselves here. The armor isn't that substantive which is embematic of the Empire's indifferent attitude toward the lives of thier men. In addition to that, they aren't the best shots in the world. |
No worse than the Redshirts(tm). In fact, maybe a bit better.
quote:
I'd like a canon source for this. |
Oh? Official ain't good enough for ya?
quote:
Go back and watch the Best of Both Worlds I,II. |
We saw, in BoBW, ONE ship fight a Borg Cube. Clearly, a Cube's stress tolerance is over whatever a Galaxy-class ship can dish out.
However, by First Contact, we see dozens of Federation ships going at it, by that point having caused "moderate damage" to the outer hull, using just phasers, photon torpedos, and quantum torpedos(which are really just souped up photon torps)
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
|
|
No, the Brahms line most definitely refers to the composer, Johannes Brahms, who is the greatest musical genius of the Romantic Era.
SSD:
See my previous posts on the SSD. Another factor was strategy, though: The Imps engaged the Rebs too close to the Death Star. Had they not been within its gravity range, the SSD likely could have survived the loss of its primary bridge and the crew would have regained control. But why did the Imps engage so closely? Well, that was Palpatine's hubris, as he wanted to use the Death Star laser on them. Why? Just for effect, because given the relative size of the fleets, the Imps could have made mincemeat out of the Rebels in no time. Serious miscalculation on Palpy's part. He's about as good a strategist as Hitler was, it seems.
Fighters: The firepower of the TIEs is nothing compared to the Fed capital ships. They aren't even turbolasers, just laser cannons. They wouldn't even scratch the Fed shields. It would be like swatting a storm of gnats. Remember: TIEs = no shields.
Also, most TIE pilots aren't too experienced or skilled, as they don't tend to live long enough to be good. Even the good ones eventually get killed by stupid Imperial tactics that remind one of Russia's in WWI and WWII.
Troopers vs Redshirts: Well, yeah, but the red shirts aren't the elite, but the storm troopers are. We'd need to compare the elite fighting forces of each.
Thrawn: done in by a Noghri. What a chump.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lonestar
|
|
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Fighters: The firepower of the TIEs is nothing compared to the Fed capital ships. They aren't even turbolasers, just laser cannons. They wouldn't even scratch the Fed shields. It would be like swatting a storm of gnats. Remember: TIEs = no shields.
|
(more from stardestroyer.net)
TIE fighters are armed with "laser cannons", although the characteristics of these cannons are anything but laser-like. The nature and properties of laser cannons are both very well known and there is no need to repeat a discussion of those phenomena here unless you have been neglecting your studies ( ). However, we have some preliminary analysis on a possible quantification of those weapons in Federation units.
----From Luke Skywalker's strafing run in the Battle of Yavin, a single hit upon the unshielded surface of the Death Star could be seen to cause a large flash of superheated material, enough to engulf an entire X-Wing fighter and cause thermal damage to its hull despite its shields. Since armor is not flammable and lasers do not create wide-area flashes directly, one can conclude that large portions of the Death Star's surface buildings are flashing to vapor during Luke's strafing run.
----Because of the shallow angle of approach and the fact that the flashes vary in size and brightness, it is difficult to gauge the actual amount of destruction being done. However, in order to create a flash of vapour the size of an X-wing fighter, the individual blasts must be vapourizing at least one cubic metre of metal each. This is a very conservative estimate since the gas also had to shoot away from the surface so quickly it intercepted the hurtling starfighter, but it will have to suffice. At least 60GJ is required to vaporize a single cubic metre of ordinary iron, so this provides a lower limit for starfighter laser cannon energy.
-We must stress the highly conservative nature of this estimate: the DS shell was constructed of heavy armor, and Imperial armor is far superior to simple iron. In The Stele Chronicles, a TIE fighter pilot deliberately flew his unshielded fighter into the atmosphere of a planet at high speed as an evasive maneuver. The unprotected armor and transparent front window of his fighter were totally unaffected by this event- an event that would easily push ordinary iron beyond its maximum service temperatures as the 20th century Space Shuttle's ceramic heat tiles demonstrate. Furthermore, Imperial dura-armor is made by "compressing and binding neutronium, lomite, and zersium molecules together through the process of matrix acceleration", according to the SWE. The use of neutronium micro-particles as interstitial alloying elements in dura-armor is strongly suggestive of extreme mechanical and thermal toughness.
===
so, it would be considerably more than "gnats"
===
quote:
Also, most TIE pilots aren't too experienced or skilled, as they don't tend to live long enough to be good. Even the good ones eventually get killed by stupid Imperial tactics that remind one of Russia's in WWI and WWII.
|
Why worry about it when you outnumber your enemy 200 to one?
Besides, by Heir to the Empire, TIE fighters are, at the order of Thrawn going through more exercises and are shield. (also, the TIE/standard line was shut down and only new Intercepters were being built)
quote:
Troopers vs Redshirts: Well, yeah, but the red shirts aren't the elite, but the storm troopers are. We'd need to compare the elite fighting forces of each.
|
Your Federation marines suck to. Geez, didn't even have any Mortor....
quote:
Thrawn: done in by a Noghri. What a chump. |
Kirk: Shot in the back.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lonestar
|
|
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Starfleet weapons officers can hit fighters with regularity. Can you say the same about the Empire?
|
Yep. And the Fighters are more agile too.
Plus, like any truely progressive military, you use fighters to take out fighters, not ships.
quote:
I said that I'd like a canon source for the info.
|
I can't give one to you, not outside of Novels(which are considered as good as canon by LucasArts). However, as each ST Photon Torpedo tops out at 2.7E17 jouls (64.3 megatons), and Qunatums roughly twice that, and they did signifigant damage in First Contact to Borg vessels we can assume that Turbolasers, which toss out a astonishing 100 gigaton per shot would be able to rip into the Borg hull like tissue paper.
quote:
In BoBW we saw the results of a FLEET engagement against the Borg. You'll recall that the Fed fleet was decimated at Wolf 359. I doubt that the Empire would fair much better. |
Did we see the actually Battle?(besides about 3 minutes of it in Emiisary) No. So we don't really know what happened, other then the Starfleet Armada (snort) assembled eventually lost, and the Enterprise, whose sensors couldn't pick up Sisko (oops) went on it's merry way.
quote:
Randomizing the energy frequencies of thier weapons and being led by a man that was intimately familiar with the abilities of the Cube. The Empire wouldn't have the benefit of these advantages. |
By the time the Enterprise was reaching the battle, Data was reporting that the "Borg...have suffered moderate damage to the outer hull", a far cry from when we saw a single GCS engae the Borg Cube. Clearly, there is a stress level the Cbe has, and a few dozen Starfleet vessels break it.
While The FC armada probaly wouldn't have been able to stop the Borg before reaching Earth, they were doing enough damage to indicate they would have stoped it eventually.
And if the Federation could do it, so could the Empire.
quote:
For the same reason that the Empire under Palpatine, was never able to develop the inovative tactics needed to defeat the Rebellion: arrogance and stupidity. As an example of this, they appeared to have learned nothing from thier experiences in the Yavin system. |
Obviously, they learned some things. They managed to drive to Rebels off Yavin, kick their butt at Hoth, and made sure all the fighters were out at Endor.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
DinoDoc
|
 |
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
Yep. And the Fighters are more agile too. |
The crew of the Super Star Destroyer Executor might disagree with you.
quote:
I can't give one to you, not outside of Novels(which are considered as good as canon by LucasArts). |
No they aren't. Seeing Attack of the Clones must have convinced you of that much at least.
quote:
So we don't really know what happened, other then the Starfleet Armada (snort) assembled eventually lost, |
What more do you need to know?
quote:
By the time the Enterprise was reaching the battle, Data was reporting that the "Borg...have suffered moderate damage to the outer hull", a far cry from when we saw a single GCS engae the Borg Cube. Clearly, there is a stress level the Cbe has, and a few dozen Starfleet vessels break it. |
The Federation, unlike the Empire, has shown an ability to improve thier use of tactics. They have developed whole classes of ships that were specifically designed to fight the Borg.
quote:
While The FC armada probaly wouldn't have been able to stop the Borg before reaching Earth, they were doing enough damage to indicate they would have stoped it eventually. |
They weren't able to accomplish that before the Cube wasd able to complete its mission: The assimilation of Earth.
quote:
And if the Federation could do it, so could the Empire. |
What makes you think that the Borg would send one Cube to conquer the territory the size of the Empire?
quote:
They managed to drive to Rebels off Yavin, kick their butt at Hoth, and made sure all the fighters were out at Endor. |
Two and a half losses in three major battles isn't an impressive track record.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:19.
Apolyton Time is 00:19. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
20-05-2002 02:11
I don't think I ever questioned who asked for the clone army. Obviously it was Palpatine. The problem is who knew about the clones existence.
|