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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Anyone who thinks the Empire can beat the Borg is just plain crazy.
Stormtroopers vs Drones:
would be rather funny seeing all those million of stormtroopers fire and not even killing a single drone.  Borg 1, Empire 0 |
Bah, Stormtroopers hit oppenents Plenty. Both in ANH, and ROTJ.
Empire 1, Borg 0
quote:
The Borg only hold about a quarter of a galaxy, and the Empire some 90%(?) of one. However, the Borg are a lot more efficient in their collective working towards a single goal. still: 1-1
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(acutally the Empire has more like 2/3s a Galaxy that is signifignatly larger than the milky way)
Effective in working togather? If that were so, they would have conquered the Milky Way galaxy a thousand years ago. Clearly, the Borg have no idea as to how to use the resources at their desposal.
quote:
Number of capital ships:
25k on the Imperial side, though never many in one area. Unsure of the number of Borg ships. I'll look it up. 1-1
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No, 25,000 Imperator-Star Destroyers. There;s a difference. There are many more thousands of capital ships.
For the Borg, we know they have "Many Hundreds" (call it 700) as the low-end estimate, because that was the number of Borg Cubes Species 8472 had destroyed by the time of Scorpian .
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Transwarp vs Hyperdrive? Easy. 2-1 for the Borg
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I think not, little Dutchman. As we saw in Endgame the Borg require Conduits for truly transglaactic speedy travel. While they do have Transwarp drives outside of conduits, they are signifigantly slowly. (remember when Voyage stole that "Transwarp Conduit" {wa?}, and when they fired it up, they only moved about 5oo ly years for a couple of minutes.)
quote:
Tactics:
Borg aren't exactly master tacticians, but at least 10 times better than the Empire's tactics (or lack thereof). 3-1
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Tactics? So? Ever hear of the phrase, God supports He with the biggest artillary?In ROTJ we saw the Capitalships using their ample weapon output slugging it out with each other individually because SW ships are so large that tactical manuevers are impractical. SW Tacties seems to decree that Starfighters complement Capital ships attacks, while ST tactics seem to involve using ground battle terms ("Flank") can lining up in a big wall and going at 'em. No better than SW Tactics, in fact, a little bit worse as ST fleets lack combinedarms naval tactics.
I bet. 
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Can you explain why Shadows of the Empire isn't canon, Mr. Chairman? |
It's "Official" which menas it's canon unless contradicted by the movies.
quote:
For anyone who says Storm Troopers are tough, I have one word for you, "Ewoks". Please explain how a bunch of oversized, animated teddybears with stone age technology managed to penetrate "neutronium" enhanced armor? |
Go back and watch ROTJ, and you'll notcie the Stormtroopers were laying the Sturmtruppen Smackdown(tm) on the Ewoks until that damn Wookie hijacked the AT-ST. And let's be honest, they were fighting a bunch of primatives, would you have suspected they'd take one over and use it as a rallying point?
Also, it's called Plasteel. Neutronium is a anomoly, it's refered to as a superhard metal alloy in both ST and SW. (Mostly on ship Hulls and Blast doors.)
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
The crew of the Super Star Destroyer Executor might disagree with you.  |
What? Theat Starfighters are more agile? Hardly. Go read the ROTJ novelization, the A-wing pilot wanted to take a few more Imperials with him (Bonzai!!!!)
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No they aren't. Seeing Attack of the Clones must have convinced you of that much at least. |
What changed with AOTC? We saw the Basic concept of the Death Star, clones that took many years to make...Those are called "chuckles" which can easily be worked into the continuity.
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What more do you need to know?
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Well, we need to know how much damage the Wolf 359 Squadron inflicted on the Borg Cube. We saw in First Contact Starfleet ships inflicting massive damage on the Cube, without changing frequencies. Go back and watch BoBW, the Phaser beam visibly changes when the Enterprise changes frequency.
This leads me to conclude that the Cube at Wolf 359 did probaly take "moderate damage to the outer hull" (at least)
quote:
The Federation, unlike the Empire, has shown an ability to improve thier use of tactics. They have developed whole classes of ships that were specifically designed to fight the Borg. |
That isn't Tactics, that's strategy! Strategy!
quote:
They weren't able to accomplish that before the Cube wasd able to complete its mission: The assimilation of Earth. |
::Shrugs:: still were bale to inflict massive damage on the Borg Cube, far more then the famous "2% power drop" number from BoBW.
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What makes you think that the Borg would send one Cube to conquer the territory the size of the Empire? |
And we've all seen how great the Borg are at long range planning, right? They've dominated their section of the Galaxy for thousands of years, but haven't even taken over the whole quadrant yet....
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Two and a half losses in three major battles isn't an impressive track record. |
What are you talking about?
The Empire eventually had to drive the Rebels off Yavin, whcih they obviously did.
They did Defeat the Rebels at Hoth.
And, dispite ultimately loosing Endor, they did amazing damage to the Rebel fleet, taking out several Capital ships the Rebellion couldn't really afford to loose.
Happy DinoDoc?
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
but the Borg will addapt to the Stormtroopers fire. Will be an easy victory.
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I think not. Blasters use plasma charges (essentially superheated helium) which, unlike phasers, has no coherant frequency. In addition SW still has slugthrowers (Machine Guns) in widespread use.
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In one single battle alone, the Borg lost some 360 ships. And that was just a fraction of what they had. The problem was, that they kept losing hundreds of ships every few hours or so against 8472. But we know the Borg are masters at rebuilding their ships/collective (in TNG the Borg were hit with that virus. in Voyager, they are already stronger than ever). |
We don't know that they were "losing hundreds of ships every few hours", thats supposition. We also don't know the extent of their recovery from the S8472 invasion.
quote:
Three more notes:
Borg have transporters |
So? Personnel heavy ships like ISD could repell any boarding party. That's assuming Transporters cut through SW shields.
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Borg ships (or star trek ships in general) can destroy entire planets. Only the DS in Starwars can do that.
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bzzzzzztttt!!!
They can destroy surfaces of planets, like SW ships can. (ever hear of Base Delat Zero?). The only time we've seen a planet physically destroyed was with the S8472 ships.
quote:
Borg can travel through time. They could simply change history in a way that the Republic's grand army would never have been created. And the Jedis alone will be overrun in days by the Collective. |
Boy, it didn't take you too long to pull out the "Time Travel" card, did it? I guess you didin't step back and think as to why the Borg vessel in FC only used Time travel in Orbit of Earth. Could it be that, the Borg do not truly use Time Travel per se, but can just predict when a fissure in time will appear?(much like the "Great Machine" on []iBabylon5[/i])
The Jedis alone would smack the Borg. At least Battle droids have guns.
Besides, we're talking Empire/Borg here, not Old Republic stuff.
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
No, they would disagree with you that Stardestroyer gunners hit fighters with regularity.
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Surely you wouldn't expect a Battleship's 16in guns to take out a fighter, would you? Then why Turbolasers. Remember, Fighters take out fighters, not the otherway around.
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Fett's origin for one thing.
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So? It's "still canon unless contradicted by the movie". So, as the man said, "neener neener".
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They were obviously changing frequencies of both thier weapons and shields, Lonestar. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to have been able to stand up to the Cube for as long as they did, much less damage it. |
I didn't see those phasers changing like they did in BoBW, and I saw photon Torpedos and Quantum torpedos inflicting damage on the Cube. Obviously, the "Invincilbe Cube" is a myth.
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The Borg even took a direct hit from a beam directed from the main deflector dish of the Enterprise without blinking. |
Yep, after they took over a guy who know the CO intimately. Thus, the Locutus personality probaly figured out he would have done that long ago. So, "provisions were made".
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That's another thing that the Empire was never able to improve during thier fight with the Rebellion. |
Well, that was more Palpatine's fault than the Imperial Armed Forces Command.
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And the Borg still won in thier mission. Despite the assault by the Fed ships. |
The point is, if laughable Federation weapons could inflict that kinda damage on a Borg Cube, Imperial Capital ships could eat one for lunch.
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I would definately call the battles at Yavin and Endor losses for the Empire due to the fact that the Rebellion was able to inflict heavy damage to the Empire (Two Death Stars & destruction of a fleet) and escape more or less intact. |
Ah...but there was another Battle at Yavin, when the Imperials eventually drove them off planet. (The pursuit was fubared when a ISD dropped outta hyperspace right on top of the Executor)
And the Fleet wasn't destroyed at Endor, several Star Destroyers made it out.
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Hoth was only a partial sucess for the Empire because they were only able to accomplish one of thier goals (the capture of Echo Base) while the other (capture of Rebellion leadership) eluded thier grasp.
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In additon, the Rebeliion left behind much equipment they couldn't really afford to lose. Worked out pretty damn well, I think. Although Ozzel still deserved being choked.
quote:
A conventional army looses by not winning. A guerrilla army wins by not loosing.
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That's true.
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Yes.  |
Good. When you cease this bizarre, pro-trek commie lovers nonsense and join the Darkside? 
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
They were obviously changing frequencies of both thier weapons and shields, Lonestar. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to have been able to stand up to the Cube for as long as they did, much less damage it. |
Then how do you explain the lack of a change of color in the beams? That is how they indicated the shift of frequency before.
quote:
That's another thing that the Empire was never able to improve during thier fight with the Rebellion. |
Actually, according to the books, there were plenty of times the Empire outwitted and outmaneuvered the Rebellion. And Endor was actually a good plan and would have been a success if hadn't been for the Vader and the Emperor's hubris.
quote:
I would definately call the battles at Yavin and Endor losses for the Empire due to the fact that the Rebellion was able to inflict heavy damage to the Empire (Two Death Stars & destruction of a fleet) and escape more or less intact. |
There is no way Yavin can be considered a victory for the Empire, right. It was an utter disaster both for loss of manpower (A quarter-million on the DS at least were killed), and the PR blow was enormous. It is what gave the Rebellion hope and caused other worlds to flock to them.
Hoth was at best a Phyrric victory, for while the Empire routed the rebels, they didn't capture the leaders, as Dino said, and in the process lost an Admiral and 3 Imperial Destroyers that miscalculated their hyperspace jumps and slammed into the Executor (causing, btw, no damage to the Executor at all, as her shield were enough to take the blow). Not to mention that they lost their best ground commander, General Veers.
And Endor can't be anything but a disaster, as the Emperor and Vader were annihilated, along with the new DS and the Executor. However, Dino, most of the Imp fleet escaped intact, and the Rebel fleet suffered far more a casualties ship-wise if you don't include the Death Star.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
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quote:
why pick one? The Empire doesn't ally with others. |
Sure they do. The Hutts, the Corporate Sector...they will ally with who they need to.
quote:
Dominion. Eventhough their Alfa adventure ended, they are still all powerfull in the Gamma quadrant. If it wasn't for those damn Prophets the Alfa Quadrant would have been quickly overrun. |
Alpha, alpha, alpha. . So now that's 5 you've oscillated between, throwing to the Dominion in the mix. Aren't we only talking Alpha Quadrant anyway.
quote:
BTW, why is everyone talking about the Empire anyway? As we saw in RotJ, it doesn't even exist anymore. |
What kind of logic is this? All of SW takes place "A Long Long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." It's a hypothetical matchup of two (or more, for the ST vascillators) fictional sci fi orgs. But we've been consistently assuming the Empire at its peak of power, pre-Endor.
And the Empire DOES exist after RotJ. Why would the loss of that one battle mean it's gone? According to the Zahn novels, the Empire simply fragments but is still a potent enemy for the New Republic. The New Republic also had to fight tooth-and-nail to seize Coruscant. Don't forget the threat posed by Thrawn. No, the Empire lived on, albeit weakened.
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20-05-2002 20:49
the force is really believable.
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