25-05-2002 06:58									#181
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quote: By your logic I could never feel proud of my parents, and that would be a real shame.

You've followed NONE of my logic. I said it was OK to be proud of achievements.

quote: For the same reason I can be proud my Grandfather helped liberate Europe in 1944-45. For the same reason I can feel proud that by Grandmother and Great Grandmother resigned from the Daughters of the Revolution when they refused to allow Marion Anderson to sing. It feels good to be proud of those we love and with whom we have a connection, even those remotely via ancestry. There's nothing wrong with it.

EXACTLY! You are proud of their achievements, not that they are who they are. You aren't proud of your family name, but of what your family did.

THAT is my logic.

	25-05-2002 07:00									#182
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But is anyone proud to be an American just because they are American? I think being proud to be an American usually is tied, for the vast majority of people, to a sense of American achievement.

Likewise, Black Pride is about celebrating Black achievement, isn't it?

	25-05-2002 07:02									#183
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quote: But is anyone proud to be an American just because they are American? I think being proud to be an American usually is tied, for the vast majority of people, to a sense of American achievement. Likewise, Black Pride is about celebrating Black achievement, isn't it?

In both cases, it seems most of the time it isn't. There are intelligent people who are proud of America's achievements or black peoples' achievements... but a vast majority of them (from my view) seem to simply be proud to be simply American or black. That is what I'm against. No need to be proud of something you were born with.

	25-05-2002 07:07									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But is anyone proud to be an American just because they are American? I think being proud to be an American usually is tied, for the vast majority of people, to a sense of American achievement. Likewise, Black Pride is about celebrating Black achievement, isn't it? In both cases, it seems most of the time it isn't. There are intelligent people who are proud of America's achievements or black peoples' achievements... but a vast majority of them (from my view) seem to simply be proud to be simply American or black. That is what I'm against. No need to be proud of something you were born with.

Really? I can honestly say I've never met anyone who professed to be proud to be an American solely for the name alone. Same thing with Blacks. Maybe I've been sheltered...

Still, I see no reason to be "against" it. It may not jive for you, but why begrudge it to others?

	25-05-2002 07:10									#185
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Boris... Most of the people that were proud to be American, where simply proud just for the name alone. And I find it disheartening when some black pride people don't even know George Washington Carver or Booker T. Washington.

quote: Still, I see no reason to be "against" it. It may not jive for you, but why begrudge it to others?

Because, I think a society in which people are proud for what they are born as, instead of what they've achieved is doomed to failure.

	25-05-2002 07:18									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Boris... Most of the people that were proud to be American, where simply proud just for the name alone.

I see no way to verify or disprove this statement, but I am skeptical of it. Many people who are proud to be American may say so for false/exaggerated achievements, but I really doubt even a large minority absolutely do not associate national pride with national achievement.

quote: And I find it disheartening when some black pride people don't even know George Washington Carver or Booker T. Washington.

And I find it distressing most American high schoolers can't locate their own state on a map. But that is not all that relevant to this argument.

quote: quote: Still, I see no reason to be "against" it. It may not jive for you, but why begrudge it to others? Because, I think a society in which people are proud for what they are born as, instead of what they've achieved is doomed to failure.

First, I still dispute that is the basis for national/ethnic pride celebrations. Second, can we say "Going to extremes?" Doomed to failure? Maybe doomed to have people rolling their eyes at them.

	25-05-2002 07:21									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Orange did no such thing. He cited an observed phenomena and then asked why it occurs. He was posting a legitmate, objective query into why the things he sees are happening. And he certainly did not attack anyone's right to start and name a club whatever they want.

using the observed phenomena theory are we? okay, then, if that is indeed the case, one could merely do a scientic study; interview a representive sample of uni students asking them to identify their friends and aquantances racially. then ask them to explain why they know and associate w/those groups of people. if one were being objective and scientific that is.

	25-05-2002 07:25									#188
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quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl using the observed phenomena theory are we? okay, then, if that is indeed the case, one could merely do a scientic study; interview a representive sample of uni students asking them to identify their friends and aquantances racially. then ask them to explain why they know and associate w/those groups of people. if one were being objective and scientific that is.

Um...yeah, except this is a message board where people come to post such questions and see what others think. I don't think orange or anyone else for that matter posts here looking/expecting to get scientific answers through in-depth research studies. He just wants other people's opinions as to why it might be that way.

	25-05-2002 07:39									#189
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Unspoken Black/White segregation is, of course, unheard of in the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M.

There's something to be said about a regimented life.

	25-05-2002 07:52									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Who says you can only be proud of your own achievements? My mom says she's proud of me for things I've done. Should I tell her to shut the f*ck up for trying to steal my glory?

In this case you are your mother's achievement. Do you think its easy to raise good kids?

	25-05-2002 07:56									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia In this case you are your mother's achievement. Do you think its easy to raise good kids?

Who said I'm good?

But again, that would imply I can't be proud of my mom, because she's in no way my achievement, right? Well, that's bs. I can and will be proud of her.

	25-05-2002 07:59									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Seriously, this is dumb. What's wrong with Black people being proud of their heritage? Nothing. And don't give me crap that white people can't be, as I see every white group in NYC having their own parade day. Germans, Swedes, Greeks, Irish...they all have parades.

...all of which are stupid and pointless. Imran knows what Im talking about.

quote: The difference, however, is that Blacks in the U.S. were raped of their cultural and national identity by slavery. Ergo "Black" is the only thing they have for ethnicity.

Blacks who were brought to the US never had a national identity. They came from warring tribes, not nations. Do I hear violins?

	25-05-2002 08:02									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Who said I'm good?

If your Mom is proud of you, you must be doing something right.

quote: But again, that would imply I can't be proud of my mom, because she's in no way my achievement, right? Well, that's bs. I can and will be proud of her.

Sure you can be proud of your Mom, theres nothing wrong with being proud of the achievements of those close to you because in a way its a positive reflection on you. The problem I have is with people who are proud of themselves for being born a certain way.

	25-05-2002 08:05									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Who says you can only be proud of your own achievements? He never said your OWN achievements. He just mentioned achievements. I agree. What is the sense of being proud of something you were born into? Like being proud of being American? Why? You can be proud of what America has done, but proud to simply be American is kinda strange to me.

Exactly.
Its a lot easier to sit on your fat arse wave a flag and be proud than to actually work hard and contribute something of worth to america.

	25-05-2002 08:10									#195
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Ah, yes. Because blacks, be they Americans or Somali, are indeed an ethnic group. How could we possibly forget?

Somalis are not part of the Black culture. Neither are Nigerians, nor Xhosa, nor any other African culture. Black culture is a unique American culture, a hybrid of various African cultures as well as Scottish, English, and (in Louisiana) French. West Indians in the US do not consider themselves Black, even if they are black.

Get it? Got it? Good.

	25-05-2002 08:10									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia ...all of which are stupid and pointless. Imran knows what Im talking about.

That is strictly a matter of opinion. I see absolutely no harm in them. And just because you have a buddy who will back you up doesn't mean a thing. Anyone can find someone who will support them on anything.

quote: Blacks who were brought to the US never had a national identity. They came from warring tribes, not nations. Do I hear violins?

First, that's historically inaccurate and Eurocentric. Many slaves were stolen from major African kingdoms, such as Benin and Asante. Second, even those taken from "warring tribes" (oh, how condescending we are!) had their own distinct ethnic culture and lifestyle that was destroyed through slavery. Third, how would any of this preclude Blacks of today from associating themselves with each other through an ethnic status? Who are you to make that judgment?

	25-05-2002 08:14									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Sure you can be proud of your Mom, theres nothing wrong with being proud of the achievements of those close to you because in a way its a positive reflection on you. The problem I have is with people who are proud of themselves for being born a certain way.

This is logically inconsistant. You are trying to rationalize a difference just so you can dengrate Black pride. Either you can have pride in your ancestors, and by extension, other groups of which you have been made a part or you cannot be proud of anything which is not your doing. Make a choice. Don't waffle about trying to have your cake and eat it too.

	25-05-2002 08:28									#198
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is logically inconsistant. You are trying to rationalize a difference just so you can dengrate Black pride. Either you can have pride in your ancestors, and by extension, other groups of which you have been made a part or you cannot be proud of anything which is not your doing. Make a choice. Don't waffle about trying to have your cake and eat it too.

I said "those who are close to you", not some far-off ancestor. If your associates achieve success then you have successfully chosen associates, and in the case of close family members, success is a reflection fo your own potential. I dont just denigrate Black pride, I denigrate White pride. You are the one who wants to have his cake (denigrate white pride) and eat it too (revere black pride).

	25-05-2002 08:34									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That is strictly a matter of opinion. I see absolutely no harm in them. And just because you have a buddy who will back you up doesn't mean a thing. Anyone can find someone who will support them on anything.

Like I care whether anyone backs me up or not.

If your opinion is that its ok to be proud of something you were born with then can I assume you are a monarchist?

quote: First, that's historically inaccurate and Eurocentric. Many slaves were stolen from major African kingdoms, such as Benin and Asante. Second, even those taken from "warring tribes" (oh, how condescending we are!) had their own distinct ethnic culture and lifestyle that was destroyed through slavery. Third, how would any of this preclude Blacks of today from associating themselves with each other through an ethnic status? Who are you to make that judgment?

Thank God their lifestyle was destroyed because most who were brought over were already enslaved by their own tribe or kingdom.

	25-05-2002 08:41									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia They have, but it didnt contribute to the building of this country.

Would you care to tell Motown how little money it made?

	25-05-2002 08:45									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Would you care to tell Motown how little money it made?

I stand corrected.

	25-05-2002 08:53									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Indeed, blacks created the only art form created by America, Jazz.

Nonsense. Whats this "only" garbage? Ragtime preceeded Jazz. Blues as well I suspect.

Movies are an artform. Definitly created in America. The American Musical is an art form.

	25-05-2002 08:55									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Nonsense. Whats this "only" garbage? Ragtime preceeded Jazz. Blues as well I suspect. Movies are an artform. Definitly created in America. The American Musical is an art form.

I tend to ignore the anti-american trolling.

	25-05-2002 08:56									#204
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Oh, the irony.

	25-05-2002 08:57									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Blacks who were brought to the US never had a national identity. They came from warring tribes, not nations. Do I hear violins?

I think you are mistaking the sound your hip waders are making for that. There WERE African nations. Who do you think supplied the slaves for the slave trade. Sir Richard Burton was an ambassador to one.

	25-05-2002 09:00									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred I think you are mistaking the sound your hip waders are making for that.

quote: There WERE African nations. Who do you think supplied the slaves for the slave trade. Sir Richard Burton was an ambassador to one.

Sorry, my mistake.

	25-05-2002 10:32									#207
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Somalis are not part of the Black culture. Neither are Nigerians, nor Xhosa, nor any other African culture. Black culture is a unique American culture, a hybrid of various African cultures as well as Scottish, English, and (in Louisiana) French. West Indians in the US do not consider themselves Black, even if they are black. Get it? Got it? Good.

and I could say the same thing about white Americans.

Bunny - it's a damn shame that when someone who actually can speak from the point of view that this thread is about, they don't, and instead, claim that people like me are the cause of African Americans seeking unity amongst themselves.

The fact is, you don't know me, and you're passing judgement on me simply because I asked a question. Now, if you'd enlighten us with your views rather than smother this thread with your 'African Americans are being racially attacked and slandered' attitude, I'd be most happy to read your thoughts.

Elsewise, leave.

	25-05-2002 10:49									#208
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Caligastia, you are a fool who needs to shut up about African history because you obviously don't know a damn thing about the subject. Africans had no nations? Ghana, Mali, Songhai, Benin, Kanem-Borno were all nations along with myriad others. The founding of modern Ethiopia goes back to before the Roman Empire fell. There is a lot more to Africa than the stereotypical image of disorganized, warring "tribes" going about hunting and gathering. The trans-Saharan trade in salt and gold goes back more than 1000 years.

Why would an African nation of millions, such as the Yoruba, be called a "tribe", and small European states (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Estonia) be called nations. That is nothing more than a eurocentric perception on your part. The medeival nations of the Sahara (Ghana, Mali, Songhai) were certainly states. Ethiopia has been a state for more than 1000 years. And there are many more but I'm most familiar with west Africa.

Study some freakin history before trying to inculcate others with your racist crap. Oh, but I bet you think Africa has no history. Well it does. You are nothing but a white loser paranoid about "minorities" that he knows nothing about.

	25-05-2002 10:53									#209
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Carver - can you at least admit that the state systems of western Africa were much less organized and more primitive than the European systems.

Lets be historically accurate, at least, when speaking about nations

	25-05-2002 11:59									#210
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QUOTE] Originally posted by orange
and I could say the same thing about white Americans.

Bunny - it's a damn shame that when someone who actually can speak from the point of view that this thread is about, they don't, and instead, claim that people like me are the cause of African Americans seeking unity amongst themselves.

[/QUOTE]



Your initial question was answered, quite well i might add, on the first page of this thread. Many flame wars later, the subject became more about the legitmacy of black pride v. white pride.

When black pride is about killing and/or subjugating members of other races , i am a firm opponant. white pride is never about being glad that white people have such a great society and ONLY that. White pride is about white supremacy (which of course is still very alive and well).

Believe it or not, there are very many black people who consider white people not to be trusted. Many feel that given the chance, any white person would sell them up the river if push came to shove. Given that world view, it is not surprising that many black people would not choose to become friends with white people. You can not live in a world where most people still call black people morally and intellectually inferior and expect blacks to wholehartedly and with no reservations embrace every white person who approaches them without a noose. Most racism these days is subtle and harder to root out.

And if i sound a bit militant it is because i am. Having white friends (including and especially my bf) has made me see first hand the EXTREMELY different way this country treats blacks v. whites v. latinos v. asians...etc. It was only in another country did i feel entirely american and not black first. (and by black people's standards, i aint very black )