29-05-2002 14:24									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits The mysteries of Sucession Games - particularly Mad Succession Games -- there were 5 caravans in SH at 200BC with 8 more building. How come you completed neither Cope's nor (my preference) Mike's? SG[1]

Well hmmm first of all I didn't even discover Astronomy until my last turn our science is slow. Second I had to change a couple of the building caravans to crusaders in order to fend off barbarian activity near Suez Sur Scouse. Lastly I have no idea really what Im doing! But Im Learning. hehehehe

And why do you prefer Mikes? Copes isn't done so if my successor wants to change it he can feel free!

	29-05-2002 14:58									#92
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Well - the only real tricky part of playing at Deity is to keep a handle on unhappiness - this puts a great bonus on the Happy Wonders - you are building ?3? Temples - had you built Mike's (the trireme on the inland sea was intended to ferry carries from the northern cities to SH) you would not have needed any Temples - the Gardens and Mike's would have allowed any city to grow to 5 (IIRC) without invoking marshal law - that would have permitted more resources to be directed towards other matters - which might well involve Cope's.
I assume you chose University for the Chemistry - Gunpowder - Explosives path - fair enough, but my choice would have been Physics - Invention - Steam Engine - i'm an unashamed warmonger

Keep on civin - you're doing fine

SG[1]

	29-05-2002 15:18									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Mercatia Lastly I have no idea really what Im doing! But Im Learning. hehehehe

That doesn't matter as long as you are enjoying the game and learning it at the same time!

Just a nag to those about to play

Our capital needs expanding to size 12! We have the Colossus here and we are celebrating. To enjoy maximum benefit from these trade multipliers it must grow quickly…otherwise we are playing like the AI…sorry forgot…this is the Mad Game. Straybow will fix it

-----------------------

SG(2)

	29-05-2002 16:09									#94
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Mercatia - I have had another quick look at your game - so I can offer another comment or two.
The science rate was lower than it might be under my rule to keep the income for 'tickling' - when building units with cities with about 5 shields productivity - get first set of shields - rush to Warrior (~11g) get next set of shields - rush to Phalanx (~11g) - repeat to Archer, Legion and then two turns to Caravan - 6 turns and ~ 40g VERY cost effective. IMHO all turns spent building improvements are wasted, so don't start a Temple/Library/Laundrette or whatever until you can afford it - then again one set of shields and buy it - this philosophy obviates having to look ahead and try and guess such questions as will I need a Marketplace in 23 turns time? When it is needed it is purchased. You finished up with over 800g at this stage of the game a fortune to rival Bill Gates' - we don't get any interest in Civ - it should (again IMHO) have been spent on tickling and any required improvements.
Why is the vet Phallanx in UpBabsNose asleep not fortified? That puts you one turn behind if the Babs set up for a sneak - not likely, but always possible.

And, Mercatia, the most important advice of all - feel free to tell this or any other old fart of whatever age to shut up if you think we are getting at you

SG[1]

	29-05-2002 16:44									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits (2) ... Straybow will fix it

You did notice that on the 'Nicks' thread he characterised StrayBow (Strabo) as a mild form of Loose Cannon

SG[1]

	29-05-2002 17:27									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ... but my choice would have been Physics - Invention - Steam Engine - i'm an unashamed warmonger Keep on civin - you're doing fine SG[1]

mmmh... white uniforms on the upper deck, black crew in the steam engine room...
This can't be SG(2)... this is the Admiral!


Now back to serious questions.
We have all learnt (or learned, it depends under which sea you are sailing ) how to rushbuild without payng a lot of money:
Turn 0 set caravan production
Turn 1shields+ change to warrior and buy, change to phalanx;
Turn 2 shields + change phalanx to diplo/legion/whatever buy the next row of shields ...
and you go on 'till your camel exits from the factory!
Thanks for sharing!

Now, about growing or capital to a Fat Capital (or SSC or whatever), can one of the Gits, LaFayette or any other old farts explain roughly how does it work?

	29-05-2002 17:29									#97
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I'm quite tired. I forgot THE question...
I meant it's ok the normal "celebrating" growth under demo or republic...but I was referring to the Food Caravan 'trick'... (which should apply under Monarchy and the SG(2) Gov't... )

	29-05-2002 17:44									#98
	City Growth 101 Enter the AD-FREE zone

Rule 1 - put the required infrastructure in place before growth - you can see what is likely to happen by hitting the 'happy' button in the city screen - if your marshal law is all used up and you have no spare light blues delay growth until you can support it. (Corrolary to Rule 1 - you may wish to delay growth if it will cause a critical city - capital, SSC, STC to drop out of celebration)

Growing upto size 8: Move Settler into city and press 'b'. This is the technique SG(2) used to get SH to 7 ...

Beyond 8 - Must have Aqueduct and Granary or equivalent Pyramid - send in Food Caravan from food rich smallish city - remember that this will take a trade route from the source city - which is why you never send food caravans from critical cities - Capital, SSC, STC. Once the food trade route has been established more food caravans can be sent between the same city pair without further loss

Beyond 12 - Must have Sewer System, Aqueduct and Granary as above, but it is considerably harder to maintain celebration beyond this size particularly when the city size is odd - it is often worthwhile to arrange the caravan flow so that your city grows from say 14 to 15 to 16 in consecutive turns and then juggle luxuries to reassert celebration.

Unless you are doing something insane such as seeking a record game these heroic efforts will be reserved for just the one or exceptionally two chosen cities which become the focus of your empire.

Does this help?

SG[1]

	29-05-2002 19:19									#99
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Of course yes!

	29-05-2002 20:56									#100
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20 ad. King Julius the Mad steps into the throne. Just to fit his not so enlightening vision of war, he switches production of library and temple to barracks. And he dreams of being an angel, not to watch the sky at night (building mike and not cop).
40-60 ad. Nothing happens. 2 triremes set to explore the eastern seas.
80 ad. We build Michelangelo’s chapel. The city of Sad King Julius is founded, south of Persepolis.
100-120-140 ad. We refuse the offer of the Vikings to betray the celts for 50 gold.
160 ad. 100 gold in a hut in a northern continent.
180-200 ad. Barbarians near Persepolis. We build Copernic. Time to retire and hand the power to a less unsane man or woman.

	29-05-2002 20:58									#101
	Tired of ads?

My 10 turns of “madness” are gone. I couldn’t tell if we were playing ICS, perfectionnist, or something else. But at least I got the SSC project clear. Many cities are building settlers, either to build more cities or improve the land. With HG and Mike we could have some growth soon, if we want to. The settlers production might be changed to caravan or war units. I have no idea of the right strategy so far. The AI don’t seem a threat so far. Would anyone like to see Alpha C. ?
Here's the saved game

Attachment: ye_a200.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	29-05-2002 21:00									#102
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

My log is one page 4

	29-05-2002 21:02									#103
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thanks Julius ...

Play order:

on first and last page ...

SG[1]

Last edited by Scouse Gits on 31-05-2002 at 15:15

	29-05-2002 21:15									#104
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I'll try to play tonite!

	29-05-2002 22:45									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits IMHO all turns spent building improvements are wasted, so don't start a Temple/Library/Laundrette or whatever until you can afford it - then again one set of shields and buy it And, Mercatia, the most important advice of all - feel free to tell this or any other old fart of whatever age to shut up if you think we are getting at you SG[1]

Ok no temples, libraries, or Laundrettes...but can we build day spas? I really need a massage!!

Finally don't ever shut up I can't learn without help this is a complicated game.

Ooops the other question why was the Vet Phalanx Sleeping... I read in another thread recently that if you sleep one unit per city if an enemy strollls up to the city that will alert you and beings that Upbabsnose is well UP BABS NOSE. I wanted to be alerted when his slimy green men wandered into our city. Was that a bad thing?

	29-05-2002 23:14									#106
	Barb Alert! Enter the AD-FREE zone

Messer Niccolò look at the game closely before you play. Julius has left you a nice little time bomb in the shape of two barb horsemen on the doorstep of Persepolis! I know the Swiss are always neutral but this is taking things to extreme.

The barbs will almost certainly kill both defenders - and with no walls - this means a double population reduction. One archer in the city will kill the adjacent unit, and you could try moving the other archer out to block the remaining one. This unit will be killed, (next turn the crusader now building will exact revenge) but it saves any population loss.

--------------------------

SG(2)

	30-05-2002 00:16									#107
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Quick log, really quick:
AD 200-220 MN II discovers the secret of University and the chief conehead (happy because of the new science budget [70%]) chatters of a new science called “Invention”. Mr. Da Vinci starts to talk about a new Workshop... intriguing . (someone reports the King to rule on 900,000 souls)

AD 240-260 Celts start to build King Richard Crusade... funny, really funny... a crusade...

AD 300 Big party in ScouseHolme, all the “bigs” invited, wow they take gifts: Hammurabi “the Green One” (100$), Isabel (200$), and our purple not so friendly friends (250$ they become Icy... I don’t know why). Our allies ask us to declare war on Vikings (wherever they are), to support the decision they forget 150$ on the floor...
King MN II “The NothingMaker” flips a coin and... cross: we declare war on the Vikings.
Oh, in Sarzana we start to build our King Richard Crusade...

AD 320 Invention discovered. Immediately Mr. Leonardo shows us that our army is quite ridicoulous... he whispers the magic words: Powder and Musketters.
King MN II stopping to eat his WhaleSteak meal orders “Let the Workshop be built. And please Mr. Leo, give a different colour to our horrible uniforms... maybe a bright yellow?”

AD 340-400: Vikings finally discovered. “Consequences? Schmonsequences!” ... they will learn soon the power of the Powder!"

MN II retires smoking cigars and writing his memories... a 3 pages bestseller “How to become King doing nothing all day long”. The editor, Mr. STYOM, gets the royalties and with the earnings purchases the votes of the Council and is elected King...

	30-05-2002 00:18									#108
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Scouse Archers.
Oh, I've almost forget. The King built a statue for the Perseolis Archers (awarded pf a Medal of Honour) for defeating two barbarian horsemen.
(we lost a trireme from a "popping" barb trireme... but we bribed the Legion inside...

	30-05-2002 00:20									#109
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And here is the save!
I admit to have played in a real hurry... but I'm really "shorting" my time (and I don't have futures for hedging! )

Attachment: ye_a400.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	30-05-2002 01:36									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Mercatia Ok no temples, libraries, or Laundrettes...but can we build day spas? I really need a massage!!

Nothing wrong with laundrettes - just buy them on turn two don't let them build for three millenia

quote: Originally posted by Mercatia Finally don't ever shut up I can't learn without help this is a complicated game.

You may come to regret this ...

quote: Originally posted by Mercatia Ooops the other question why was the Vet Phalanx Sleeping... I read in another thread recently that if you sleep one unit per city if an enemy strollls up to the city that will alert you and beings that Upbabsnose is well UP BABS NOSE. I wanted to be alerted when his slimy green men wandered into our city. Was that a bad thing?

Nope - in general good advice, but not the primary defender when there are no city walls - the vet Phalanx defends at 3, fortified 4.5 - the best attacker that we think the Babs have attacks at 3 - it will lose to our fortified vet Phalanx, but might beat it unfortified. the sleeping (or sentry) command can be quite useful in this fashion - but clear points of danger such as UpBabsNose should be inspected each turn in any case.

SG[1]

	30-05-2002 02:28									#111
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Messer Niccolò Scouse Archers. Oh, I've almost forget. The King built a statue for the Perseolis Archers (awarded pf a Medal of Honour) for defeating two barbarian horsemen. (we lost a trireme from a "popping" barb trireme... but we bribed the Legion inside...

Thanks, Messer Nicolo. Did the Gits forget about William Tell
Besides, I think one of the Archer was a vet and on the turn the barbarians appearead, I rushbuild the crusader (using the warrior/phalanx/archer steps to save money).

What I maybe did wrong, and "swissly" wrong is that I forgot to ask tributes to our AI friends. That's real neutrality

	30-05-2002 04:48									#112
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Julius,
absolutely no problem... International Tax Agreements are my job .
Who's next?
I think we will have a fairly powerful Army once Leo's Workshop will be finished (and also our x triremes - at this moment - rules the seas) one or two diplos, so the next (two?) players could be able to show to the Green One Hammurabi what do we mean when we say: "Schmonsequences"...

I think it's better to remind everybody that SG[1] is THE Crook&Clads Strategy Master (... I should have his "Crusader & IronClads Strategy: easy win at Deity" guide around here... ) and it could be clever not to upset him discovering MAGNETISM...

And last but not least... I agree with Julius, I'm not a warmonger, AC landing, even if the events could lead to a different path to victory.

	30-05-2002 05:01									#113
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

For our next rulers:
in the northern sea there is a trireme loaded with a Spice caravan (demanded) which should head for ScouseHolm.

	30-05-2002 05:05									#114
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Nice going with those archers Messer Niccolò. Before you really upset SG[1] by researching Magnetism...tell us why you were building a temple in a size 2 city when we have the Gardens and Mike's

I don't mind which way we win...but we need a strong economy whether we conquer or fly spaceships.

---------------

SG(2)

	30-05-2002 05:28									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Messer Niccolò Who's next?

I am...

(stuck at work, but will hopefully be able to d/l and play tonight).

STYOM

	30-05-2002 11:55									#116
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Magnetism

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Nice going with those archers Messer Niccolò. Before you really upset SG[1] by researching Magnetism...tell us why you were building a temple in a size 2 city when we have the Gardens and Mike's

Bloody laundrettes - I warned you

I guess it's nearly time for the compariative study of Temples v Marketplaces as Happiness improvements

SG[1]

	30-05-2002 12:29									#117
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ...tell us why you were building a temple in a size 2 city when we have the Gardens and Mike's SG(2)

err... ... err... well, really in a hurry... ehmmm... well my mother said that... mmmh... once I read that...

really I don't remember, I started to build a marketplace switching to temple for a rushbuy...??? really I don't remember.
But I'm proud of my Persepolis Archers

	30-05-2002 19:35									#118
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STYOM, fresh from putting the paper to bed, resumes command of the Em-pahhh.

Looks like a pitched battle between the ICSers and the perfectionists, now... everyone does realize what Leo's will do to those vet Crusaders (and eventually, vet 'clads)?

Production of Temple (booooooo!) changed to Crusaders in RMIUD (1 shield lost).

No wonders for the AI? I should play Deity more, had I but known wonder races were so one-sided.

Goals:
Grow ScouseHolme... I mean, really... 0 food surplus?
Eliminate useless Mongols... keep wealthy Babylonians "in being" so long as they cough up cash...
More Cities!

400 AD:

50 Gold from our good friends, the Celts.
Babylonians withdraw when asked for cash.
150 Gold from the Spanish, our wannabe friends.
Request for gold from the Mongols provokes war.

Due to War with Mongols, Caravan production in Persepolis changed to Crusaders. STYOM plans a city at 67,55 to allow us sea access to the Mongols...

420: Straybow collects Silk for Caravan, starts Diplomat.
100 Gold from our Celtic friends.
Peace with Vikings.

City Walls incrementally rushed in UpBabsNose. University incrementally rushed in ScouseHolme.

440: UpBabsnose now has Walls, starts Diplomat. ScouseHolme finishes University, starts Caravan.

50 Gold from the Spanish. STYOM thinks we may lose our 'Most Excellent' reputation soon, if the Babylonians don't start being more respectful.

Straybow Silk is headed for Celtic lands.
HomebytheSea founded and starts Warrior.

Celts claim to have captured Hladir from the Vikings.

460: Barracks sold (Gunpowder). To avoid more lost ships, like the one wandering up near Mongol lands, we start to learn Navigation.

50 Gold from Celts + War with Vikings.

480: Settlers in Utica, starts Caravan. Warriors in SKJ, starts Barracks.

Barbarian Elephants near Persepolis! (note: cover spawning point).

500: Copper Caravan in Mercatia; starts Diplomat.

Crusaders rushed in Persepolis.
Babylonians withdraw + 100 gold.

Vikings retake Hladir from Celts, plus Mathematics.

520: Mongol Horsemen appear and kill our Crusaders

50 Gold from Spanish.
An Archers unit falls valiantly against the Barbarians, but the other Visigoths are routed + king (150 gold). Barracks started in Persepolis.

SKJ changes production to Diplomat. Diplomat in Straybow, starts Diplomat.

HomebytheSea builds Warriors, starts Settlers.

Sarzana will finish Leo's next turn, with an infusion of 130 Gold.

Babylonians withdraw +50 gold.

540: Spanish build KRC; Celts switch to Pyramids!

Leonardo's Workshop completed amid general rejoicing in Sarzana. Leonardo's elves immediately busy themselves training our men with muskets.

Babylonians withdraw +25. Diplomat rushed in UpBabsNose.
50 Gold from worshipful Celts. Ahh, it's nice to be loved.

Persepolis now producing Diplomat. We'll buy the Mongols first city as a base, thinks STYOM.

560: Trireme traversing Great Canal!

Babs withdraw +25 gold. STYOM considers bribing Ur (size 5) but not for 827 gold, he won't!

580: Mongols kill our Musketeer near Karakorum

Navigation discovered; researching Theory of Gravity.

ScouseHolme builds Wool Caravan (to SadKingJulius?) and starts another Caravan.

Our Crusaders kill a Mongol Elephant near Persepolis, and are crowned Veterans.

Babs withdraw +25gold
50 Gold from Spanish.

Our Musketeer beseiges Karakorum and becomes Veteran.

600: Caravan in SilkyFish (Copper); starts Caravan.

No more money from Babs... so... we attack a Phalanx parked outside UpBabsNose (starting a war) and incite a revolt in Nineveh for 516 gold. Musketeer incrementally rushed. We refuse accept offered peace, and Babs withdraw...

During May Day festivities, Nineveh is rechristened PaxSTYOMnia.

STYOM coughs suddenly in Court, and this is interpreted as a sign of weakness STYOM steps down so that a new king might amend his errors.

* Well... not much was accomplished Some things to notice: the Caravel near Tintagel is pursuing a barb King to the south; silks Caravan is 2 squares from Kells (demanded); I am working a Dip/Musket combo towards Kashgar through the woods; I was planning on founding a city east of Persepolis accessing Whale, to cover Barbarian spawn point. Also, I was trying to irrigate ScouseHolme - once that is done, Settlers might be added to PanamaHatt or use to found a Wine/Fish city east of Mercatia...

(also - forgot to rush barracks in StickyMouse)

Attachment: ye_a600.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	30-05-2002 20:20									#119
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Good turn STYOM ...

[old fart mode]

Damn misguided Scientists !
Damn Leonardo !
Damn Gunpowder


Who wants defence when we could have had SteamEngine by now!!!!!!!!!!

Damn Perfectionists
[/old fart mode]

SG[1]

	30-05-2002 20:51									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Good turn STYOM ... [old fart mode] Damn misguided Scientists ! Damn Leonardo ! Damn Gunpowder Who wants defence when we could have had SteamEngine by now!!!!!!!!!! Damn Perfectionists [/old fart mode] SG[1]

Am I missing something? (could anybody explain me what's going on?)