30-05-2002 22:32									#121
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Just me ranting ...

Musketeers are defensive units - I'm a rabid rodent I want Clads and Crooks - we have the Crooks and Gunpowder is off the tech path for SteamEngine - and Leo's turns vet Clads into green Destroyers -- of course there are many perfectly valid approaches to the game that take the GP - Leo's - Explosives route - it just isn't MY favourite - so that's what's going on - you are missing nothing - just an old fart crying in his cups

SG[1]

	30-05-2002 22:41									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Just me ranting ... Musketeers are defensive units - I'm a rabid rodent I want Clads and Crooks - we have the Crooks and Gunpowder is off the tech path for SteamEngine - and Leo's turns vet Clads into green Destroyers -- of course there are many perfectly valid approaches to the game that take the GP - Leo's - Explosives route - it just isn't MY favourite - so that's what's going on - you are missing nothing - just an old fart crying in his cups SG[1]

Just remember who it was who researched Navigation for you, SG[1] (so you can build that nice boat for Mr Magellan, leading to your Super 'Clads) when I start stranding ships on mountains

STYOM, torn between ICSing and SSC'ing (AT)...

edit: I actually ACCEPTED peace with the Babs on my last turn - I was going to refuse it, but changed my mind, thus the typo in my log, above

	30-05-2002 23:31									#123
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The last heir of the Second STYOM Dynasty "retires" to an undisclosed location with enough money and a detachment of Palace Guardsmen to avoid the historical fate of so many transitional Kings.

A dark horse rises to the throne (apparently after paying off the STYOMite King, seeing the advantages to a bloodless coup). He claims descent from Straybow the Mad by way of bastardy. An ancient document and an equally old royal seal are authenticated by historians in ScouseHolme.

The Second Straybow Dynasty begins. The merchant family finds members nepotized into various positions of power. Scousia is scoured for new talent and blood among lesser noble families. A great census is taken, and the assets of the kingdom assessed.

(Aaargh, I hate vBulletin. Went back to pg 4 to get ye_a20 so I could see better what's happened lately. Three attempts to return to page 5 never got to the bottom. Pressed "Reply," which seems to bypass caching.)

	31-05-2002 01:46									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits [old fart mode] Damn misguided Scientists ! Damn Leonardo ! Damn Gunpowder Who wants defence when we could have had SteamEngine by now!!!!!!!!!! Damn Perfectionists [/old fart mode] SG[1]

Remember this is a MAD game and smile

(in fact, I'm just as sad as you are; think of that: 'sailing a fleet of vet ironclads along Straybow's Canal'; would make me feel like Ferdinand de Lesseps *)

(* = the Frenchman who initiated and directed the building of Suez Canal)

	31-05-2002 03:55									#125
	Second Straybow Dynasty Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Straybow the Enlightened reigns in ScouseHolme. He finds the kingdom in some disarray. The glorious capital isn't even connected to the Eastern half by roads, the farms struggling at the mercies of capricious rains when irrigation could bring plenty.

Trade with foreign nations is lacking. War is pursued against enemies too distant to bring the weight of the kingdom's might to bear, yes, even the Mongols. What is a king to do? It is agreed to take the Mongol city of Kashgar, as it may have some strategic value or be reduced into a useful Settlers unit. Then the Mongols might pay us a ransom for peace.

For a while, these over-reaching war plans shall cease. Our citizens shall be put to work, and shall make our cities great. We shall open a sea route to our Northern neighbors, that we may conquer them speedily.

0600 Productions altered and tickled.
0620 Barb king disappears; Silk->Kells bring 72 gold.
–––– Erie Dye and Suez Silk sent to Persepolis, there to
–––– find transport across the sea to Spain.
0640 A Mongol Elephant advanced upon Persepolis from the
–––– North, dispatched by Crusaders. Did it slip by, or
–––– come from an undiscovered city above the hills?
–––– Settlers produced and set to work.
0660 A clever chap posits the Theory of Gravity, advancing
–––– our science to degrees never imagined. Our greatest
–––– minds are set to work studying medicines.
–––– Soldiers in Kashgar sally forth, routing our Musketeers.
–––– Our Diplomat persuades a Mongol Phalanx to defect. Now
–––– next to the city, he plies his trade. For 171 gold
–––– they cede to the glory of Scousia. Too isolated to
–––– be much good and out of position, it shall produce
–––– Settlers to build a road for future conquering forces.
–––– The city contains a Trireme, and it is loaded with
–––– a Phalanx to probe Mongol coasts.
0680 As predicted, Mongols are willing to give 25 gold for
–––– peace, a third of their pitiful treasury. ScouseHolme
–––– produces a Coal caravan. Which is more useful: send it
–––– to a large city in hopes of remuneration, or use it to
–––– help Sir Isaac establish a college without peer in the
–––– world? The latter has the highest and quickest return.
–––– Whalebane is founded to thwart barb spawning.
0700 Not much worth describing.
0720 More moving of caravans and ships.
0740 Sir Isaac's collegues find secrets of Medicine. They
–––– next set to work on Physics. More tickling Caravans
–––– towards completion.
0760 Tight Passage founded.
–––– What a surprise, the Mongols sneak-attack. Exchange a
–––– Musketeer for an Elephant. Discover that when Leo made
---- the shipboard Phalanx into a Musketeer it was closer
---- to Kabul than anything else, and became a NON unit!
0780 More tweaking, shifting, and shuffling. On the way to
---- Madrid a Copper caravan encounters Barcelona. It
---- Copper as well, but is small and without roads to give
---- good trade value.
0800 Two caravans invested into Sir Isaac's College bring
---- the cost within reason. I have left it to my successor
---- to do the honors.

Attachment: ye_a0800.sav
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	31-05-2002 04:04									#126
	Straybow retires to his home town Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I, Straybow the Twiddler, have endeavored to disband Sticky Mouse, as it is so far that corruption and waste render it nearly useless. Finish it off and found a city in a useful location. I thought to road the Gold near RMIUD, but that may be a folly. Many Settlers can now be diverted to roads along the route to Mongolia. Let us build more ships to bring our Crusaders and Musketeers to their shores, that they may be crushed.

Roads now abound, and farms are irrigated. Selflessly I have invested in ScouseHolme, leaving my ancestral lands around Straybow neglected. Let my successor remember my deeds, and make the lands about Straybow a garden of delight.

A ship loads the caravans encamped at Persepolis, and Persepolis has produced one as well. A ship carries ScouseHolme Wool and SilkyFish Copper to Caernarfon and Kaupang. A ship brings fine UpBabsNose Wine to Panama Hatt, that it may be sent on to ScouseHolme to produce a route of lasting value. Caravans from Sarzana and SilkyFish move to the coast to await transport across the sea.

Babylonian Settlers have intruded upon our lands near Panama Hatt. A Musketeer blocks them and an assault from Hatt would dispatch the problem, should Hammy refuse to remove it.

May the One God bless my successor, and destroy our enemies.

Attachment: holmebeautiful.jpg
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	31-05-2002 04:08									#127
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Forgot to say that I have taken no diplomatic actions this turn.

I'll let one of the Gits post the play order.

	31-05-2002 06:37									#128
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Mercatia sobs...."No more StickyMouse!!"

She vows to rise to power again and rebuild her!

	31-05-2002 06:54									#129
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I had a dream that we were playing a sensible game. In my fantasy ScouseHolme was a size 12 city reaching this size by virtue of food caravans. Careful placement of all the capital's workers brought the research rate down from 6 to 4 turns. As a result of a big first city all the caravans to/from this location brought in greater returns, whilst all the cities having trade routes with the capital saw their trade increase.

My slumbers then took me to the achievements of our scientists. With 32 techs in Democracy had long been discovered and the Statue of Liberty overlooked the great river Mersey and occasionally winked at the Birkenhead ferry! The Lady had provided a Communist - corruption free government - as a compromise between the warlike rodents and the perfectionists. Veteran Ironclads patrolled the home coasts and abroad threatened the enemies of the people. Leonardo's Workshop was converting all settlers to engineers…and a sleeping Scouser was upgraded to one awake…

------------------------

SG(2)

Last edited by Scouse Gits on 02-06-2002 at 15:05

	31-05-2002 08:44									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits I had a dream that we were playing a sensible game SG(2)

Yes, why did we build all those crusaders (instead of caravans and settlers) and why haven't we learned Republic by now, which would make those food Caravans redundant with WLTPD!!

STYOM

	31-05-2002 08:51									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Mercatia Mercatia sobs...."No more StickyMouse!!" She vows to rise to power again and rebuild her!

Bravo! That's the true spirit of the MAD succession game!

	31-05-2002 11:41									#132
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Sorry to intrude, but 2 things:

1) great thread, I'm learning a lot even without playing! too bad I only got MPGE and no longer 2.42 as well...

2) a question about the following

quote: Originally posted by Straybow 0760 Tight Passage founded. –––– What a surprise, the Mongols sneak-attack. Exchange a –––– Musketeer for an Elephant. Discover that when Leo made ---- the shipboard Phalanx into a Musketeer it was closer ---- to Kabul than anything else, and became a NON unit!

Do you mean that when Leo upgrades an unit it re-homes it to the nearest city? I never noticed that (but must admit I didn't pay attention...). Is that always the case, or sometimes, or did I get it wrong?

	31-05-2002 13:09									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Yes, why did we build all those crusaders (instead of caravans and settlers) and why haven't we learned Republic by now, which would make those food Caravans redundant with WLTPD!! STYOM

I am afraid that in this mad game, republic is not an option anymore. Is sanity just a contraction of sanitation or yet a word that might apply to our strategy

What puzzles me, though, is that despite going in every direction, we are still easily ahead of the AI

From my experience, ICSers and/or warmongers always get the edge in succession game. You can turn a 8 city republic in an ICS flood in a few turns (did not Dave V build about 80 cities in 10 turns once ?) but not the other way around. And once you have swords instead of infrastructure, it is tough to catch up

	31-05-2002 14:16									#134
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Cyrion - good to see that even lurkers can get some benefir - you do realise that you can still download and look at the game with MGE? Unfortunately were you to play the resultant save would be incompatible with v2.42. In answer to your question - no they most certainly don't rehome as a matter of course - it is possible that the original Phalanx was a NONE - but that will have to be investigated

Julius - we have been very good so far - no massive expansion and I only buillt one Crook - to ward off a Barb attack - your observation is well founded - it is hard to disband 80 cities and for many players such a game is no fun

SG[1]

	31-05-2002 14:58									#135
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successor now in the starting blocks

	31-05-2002 15:02									#136
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? are we going to become republicans under La Fayette's kingodm?
Are we going to experience some more mddness?
Or do we need to wait for the SG(2) Politburo to rule our country?

	31-05-2002 15:07									#137
	Economics 101 Increase Your PM Length

Assuming that a city has a production of 5 shields per turn
The cost of a caravan is:

* 10 turns - natural build
* 6 turns + 44 g - 'tickling'
* 3 turns + 86 g - economic incremental rushing
* 2 turns + 111 g - incremental rushing
* 1 turn + 150 g - heroic incremental rushing

The value of a caravan when added to a WoW is 50 Wonder shields = 200g

Moral: it is never cost effective to buy a WoW - always buy a caravan instead.

Last edited by Scouse Gits on 11-06-2002 at 12:16

	31-05-2002 21:14									#138
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Oh yes - go easy on our friends and traditional allies the Mongols - we need them healthy and scientifically advanced - to make our research cheaper ...
You can't gift tech to civs with which you are at war

SG[1]

	31-05-2002 22:04									#139
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King La Fayette comes to power in 800AD and he is quite satisfied with his kingdom, especially since a number of caravans are sailing towards fat Celt cities and the glorious capital city of Scouse Holme is busy building Isaac.
He decides to build 3 caravans in cities close by , in order to finish building Isaac ASAP. He also decides to send all available crusaders to the Mongol border, since the Mongols (who are our Keyciv) don't wish to make peace and taking a few cities from them would probably help them change their mind.
Short log:
820: Kabul is convinced to join our kingdom for the modest price of 228g (but the Mongols remain angry). Copper delivered in Barcelona: 16g . Our dear allies, the Celts, provide 50g. The Babs provide 25g. The Spaniards prefer to declare war .
840: Mongol legion killed close to Kabul. Our coneheads discover Physics and begin studying Sani (tation).
860: Celts say 'sorry'; Babs say 'sorry' (poor guys: their treasury is almost empty).
880: Wool delivery in Caernarfon: 166g
900: Isaac completed (research at 4 techs/turn from now on). We give Navigation to the Celts, but they remain sorry .
920: Sani(tation) discovered, coneheads begin to study STEAM ENGINE
940: Our crusaders take Aleppo (Mongols now OK for cease fire).
960: Silk to Caernarfon: 54g
980: Hides to Caernarfon: 34g, Copper to Madrid (at war
): 22g .
1000: SE discovered, RR researched. King La Fayette stumbles in the very steep staircase of his dungeon and decides to retire, wishing his successor lots of fun with the ironclads he will be able to build.

ATTENTION PLEASE: we are now researching RR (on the direct path RR=Indust=Commie), and RR is going to kill HG .

	31-05-2002 22:39									#140
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and the save game? ...

SG[1]
anxious to get a few Clads to sea ...

	01-06-2002 04:56									#141
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Sorry, I was in a hurry and forgot to post the savegame.
Also forgot to mention that I had started growing our glorious capital city with food caravans. I would advise to build only ironclads and food caravans during quite a few turns.
...anyway, it should be one of the Gits playing after me. No need to spend my time giving advice: both of them know exactly what a fat SSC and a huge fleet of ironclads are .

Attachment: ye_a1000.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	01-06-2002 05:24									#142
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Yes
Have you been out drowning your sorrows after the glorious victory of your adopted nation over your native one?

The SGs well oiled

	01-06-2002 13:02									#143
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In response to the various questions above - a few statistics:

At 1000BC following the death of the glorious King LaFayette and before the reigns of the Mad Duo the magnificent Scouse Empire possesses:

• 21 cities, including 4 captures and StickyMouse
• 13 Settlers
• 31 Musketeers
• 3 Horsemen
• 7 Crusaders
• 5 Caravels
• 14 Caravans

Republic was never really an option - the support costs would have crippled the economy - plus I happen to know that there are several players in the list who abhor Republic.

Why are we ahead? If I had to give a single reason it would be the whales in all three of our initial cities and the continuing momentum of largely founding so as to utilise specials - now that we have the makings of a real capital city the AI will never catch us - so we might as well go for AC - as long as I can kill someone or two along the way

SG[1]

	01-06-2002 14:26									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Yes Have you been out drowning your sorrows after the glorious victory of your adopted nation over your native one?

I was out because of a concert (you know I love singing ).
My daughter was out shouting 'on a gagnι' since she supports Sιnιgal.
IMO the other French players are somewhat paralysed when Zidane is away from the field (wrong side of the star system).

	01-06-2002 15:00									#145
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It's unfortunate you forgot to post the save since we could have used our Friday night getting pi$$ed"Strategic Consultation Session" to play both our turns in harmony -- but such is life

SG[1]

	01-06-2002 20:01									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits but such is life SG[1]

such is life

	01-06-2002 22:11									#147
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1000 Peace with Spanish - 75g tribute. Peace with Vikings - 200g tribute. Peace with Mongols. (Must have peace to gather tribute ) Dye to Kaupang 36g; Wine to ScouseHolme 70g
1020 ScouseHolme builds Colosseum; Darwin's Canal founded.
1040 ScouseHolme Size 10
1060 Barbs land near UpBabsNose - 2 killed but more in boat; Two Specials founded; Porte yerMa founded as port for the capital; Dye/Hides/Silk to ScouseHolme 46/42/19
1080 Railroad Bye bye lovely Gardens now working on The Republic; ScouseHolme size 11 Silk/Silver to ScouseHolme 19/22g. Ironclad built to finish off Barbs and to patrol the Babylonian Coast.
1100 ScouseHolme size 12 Silk to Madrid 19g; 25g tribute from Babs; Gift of 100g from Celts; Wine Shop founded
1120 Darwin's Canal builds Darwin's Voyage - Republic/Banking (This wonder should always be built in a recently founded city because the all the beakers of the next research goal will accrue during the rest of the build list of cities) Now researching Industrialisation; ScouseHolme builds Sewer System; Dye to Armargh 19g; 25g tribute from Babs; 100g gift from Celts.
1140 ScouseHolme size 13 Gift of 50g from Celts; Dye/Dye/Beads to ScouseHolme 47/32/16g
1160 Industrialisation Communism was NOT offered so Chemistry chosen as a step towards Engineers/Explosives - railway building with settlers is not fun; ScouseHolme builds Bank - now size 14 50g tribute from Mongols; Coal x 2 to ScouseHolme 18/45g
1180 ScouseHolme size 15 Beads to ScouseHolme 20g; Gold to Barcelona 26g. 25g gift from Celts
1200 ScouseHolme size 16 Coal/Hides to ScouseHolme 52/36g.
Next turn the capital will reach 17

Railroad has killed overseas trade for the moment. Even demanded Gold to Barcelona only yielded 26g. Best returns are internal trading with the behemoth capital


--------------------------

SG(2)

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	01-06-2002 22:41									#148
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ex-King Lafayette, now retired on the Riviera, is very satisfied with the achievements of his successor

	02-06-2002 01:00									#149
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I'm on it - you have given me some act to follow !!

SG[1]

	02-06-2002 06:31									#150
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Unfortunately, I only saved to temp files while I was playing my go, so I can't load up the turn I took Kashgar and cheat to peer inside and see if the Phalanx was NON before I bribed the city. I did happen to save at the start of 720, which was the turn before Leo upgraded the captured units. The shipboard Phalanx was NON, so there was no rehoming of Leo-ed units.

I realize now where the NON came from: I bribed a Phalanx when it emerged from Kashgar onto the grassland tile, and then from that tile the Dip bribed the city. It must have been NON because of distances from Scouse cities.

D'oh! Wasn't thinking… nor did anyone else catch it, right there in my AAR.