02-06-2002 03:23									#121
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quote: We shouldn't!! If they hurt themselves, so what? It is a part of growing up. Just because a b/f and g/f have sex on the first date doesn't mean they are horrible people. It doesn't mean they've done anything wrong!! (are you getting that this has happened to me ). How can we dictate to them that they shouldn't have casual sex 'to protect them from getting hurt'. I don't think we should. Why? Because I don't think that it will hurt them to have sex before marriage.

We don't believe they are horrible people. That isn't the point. It is just that they really took a risk. It can hurt to have sex before marriage. Think of all the children born out of marriage. It just doesn't affect them. Lemme tell you a story about me. Do not read ahead if you don't like to feel sad.

Shortly after the worst two days of my life, I immediately started pulling that life back together. My best friend, the nice guy that he was, decided to help me out by suggesting that me and this good looking girl I've known for a long time start going out. We did a lot of stuff for over a year and a half, largely because I kept her interested with my weird life. She (like many other people) found it facinating. One of the other things that kept us together is that I hated my parents and she hated her stepfather. Like many other people, we didn't want to find replacements for them, we just wanted those figures out of our lives forever. With me not wanting to be a father, this worked out well for her.

You're probably wondering where I'm going with all this. Well, early last September the protection failed and she got pregnant. Her stepfather got really upset and divorced her mother. She and her mother then moved to Colorado. All the while she had told me it was her boyfriend's. You see, she was worried that I might want to get involved, and since she wanted no father figure in her life, that was a large fear. Well, early last month her relationship with her mother broke down and she got really depressed and didn't eat. The baby died and she had a breakdown, probably similar to the one I had at the beginning of this story.

How did I find out about this? Well, the Friday before last (May 24th), something really good happened to me. It gave me this really nice realization. Anyway, I called this second girl who is currently my best friend (the other one died) to talk about this as well as this plan I we've set up to allow her to stay with her boyfriend for almost the whole week this coming week, without her parents knowing. She told me what happened, so I called the girl in Colorado, but she doesn't want to talk to me anymore. Anyway, for the past week I've been trying to fix this problem without success. You see, bad things can happen, unless you want to believe that I'm just horribly unlucky. Now, this isn't why I support Chivalry, because I don't believe in taking my personal experience and believing it could happen to other (because I'm just horribly unlucky). See had bad this has gone? I haven't even told you the worse part about it for me.

quote: Tell you are joking? You just described superficiality and said they aren't superficial . If you don't like a guy because he didn't hold the door open, you are being very, very superficial. Being nice is a totally different thing entirely.

Well, if the guy isn't nice enough to hold a door open and has no money, the only reason to be with him is for looks. At least the rich guy has a nice personality too. I'm not saying that southern women go for rich guys (going back to the story of my life, I have no money), they like people for a number of reasons. It's just that why would someone like a poor guy who is inconsiderate?

	02-06-2002 03:51									#122
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quote: Well, if the guy isn't nice enough to hold a door open and has no money, the only reason to be with him is for looks.

Holding a door open for a woman (and only a woman) has nothing to do with being a nice person. So if the guy's girl hold the door open for him, he's an *******?!



You still got me rolling on the floor with that comment!

	02-06-2002 03:56									#123
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It depends on what the guy is doing. If the girl is closer to the door then she could open it and then as the guy walks through first, he can grab the door and hold it open for her. This doesn't always have to be the case. If people are in a hurry, then being nice can be thrown out the door, as everyone can be happier just leaving as soon as possible.

BTW, I'm so glad to see that you could laugh after shortly after reading the previous account (assuming you decided to read it).

	02-06-2002 03:59									#124
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Well it was too long .

And Apoc, that is all good and well, but it isn't chivalry. Chivalry says the guy ALWAYS opens the door for the woman. If the woman gets there first, then she waits for the guy to come and open the door. See why I hate chivalry?

Being nice to be nice is one thing... being chivalrous is another.

	02-06-2002 04:14									#125
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"you won't find a better man than a southern man anywhere. "

Nope. Wrong.

	02-06-2002 04:36									#126
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I think that if some here were on the Titanic when it was sinking they would have preferred if the captain would have said "every man for himself" instead of "women and children first".

The South still knows the difference and the women here appreciate it generally except for the carpet baggers...

	02-06-2002 05:10									#127
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quote: Well it was too long

I never would have told it if I couldn't make a point with it.

quote: And Apoc, that is all good and well, but it isn't chivalry. Chivalry says the guy ALWAYS opens the door for the woman. If the woman gets there first, then she waits for the guy to come and open the door.

Yes it is. It all depends on the circumstances. Maybe it's Chivarly from the Middle Ages, but that isn't the Southern definition.

	02-06-2002 05:13									#128
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "you won't find a better man than a southern man anywhere. " Nope. Wrong.

well .............my dad , none better than him .
nor both my grandpa's . my uncles and brother.
and of course gotta add slowwhand in that group.
since ive known him since i was a kid.
all the cream of the crop good ole southern men...

faithful to their wives, hard workin , church going , patriotic
and good lookin
its in the genes or maybe its the good southern women
that keep them in line

not saying there aren't good men other places...
don't mean to offend any nice northern men.
just saying southern men are top of the line.

	02-06-2002 06:04									#129
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quote: I think that if some here were on the Titanic when it was sinking they would have preferred if the captain would have said "every man for himself" instead of "women and children first".

Because that statement is discriminatory. If women are equal, why should they go first? Children I can understand, but not women.

quote: Yes it is. It all depends on the circumstances. Maybe it's Chivarly from the Middle Ages, but that isn't the Southern definition.

Then you aren't following chivalry . There is NO southern definition. There is simply one definition of chivalry and that is the man does everything for the woman. If whoever gets their first opens the door, it isn't chivalry, it is just being nice. Being nice doesn't mean you are being chivalric. Chivalry puts the woman on a pedestal (which believe it or not, many women don't like).

From the American-Heritage Dictionary:

NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. chiv·al·ries
1. The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood. 2a. The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women. b. A manifestation of any of these qualities. 3. A group of knights or gallant gentlemen

--

And Boann, some might not consider church-going to be meaning a good man .

And yes Slow is a good man (I haven't talked to anyone else you mentioned), he just gets on my nerves sometimes .

	02-06-2002 06:37									#130
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The southern version fits all those qualities.

	02-06-2002 06:59									#131
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How does a code that expects males to behave "gallantry towards women" limit the womans behaviour? Sounds to me like you don't care for the fact that there are social mannerisms that might be expected of you Imran.

	02-06-2002 07:06									#132
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quote: The southern version fits all those qualities.

Letting the woman open the door for you it does not. That is not the 'courtesy' towards women that is chivalry.

quote: How does a code that expects males to behave "gallantry towards women" limit the womans behaviour?

Because the flip side of it is that the woman must behave in a certain way herself. Also the idea of doing things for women, simply because of their gender is a subtle idea that the woman cannot do it for herself (just like the black man who is helped by a quota struggles with the idea that perhaps the program is in place because people believe he cannot reach the pinnacle himself).

And yes, I don't care for that social mannerism, because I find it totally outdated and somewhat demeaning to women to only do these things simply because she is a woman thus implicity saying she cannot do it herself. This is the reason that my g/f refuses help from men to help carry something, sometimes, because she
'can do it herself'. It might be intended as helpful, but can very often come across as condescending (like the Afirmative Action example).

Tradition and custom is usually limiting and one must challenge those traditions and customs and break free of them. They are simply ways for the old guard to hinder the new. The new guard must make their own rules and not follow the tradition and customs of the elder generation.

	02-06-2002 07:07									#133
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I wonder if he would have been one of the first in the lifeboats...

	02-06-2002 07:07									#134
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I would have put my g/f first, and then I would have followed. But yes... why die needlessly if men and women are equal?

	02-06-2002 07:10									#135
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That is why I am a southerner. I treat the women better even though they are equal. That is the difference and that is why the women here generally do not feel opressed or inferior.

	02-06-2002 07:11									#136
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You put them on a pedestal, make them an object.

You would put women first on the lifeboats for no reason, but simply because they are women. You would treat them differently because they are a certain gender. That is sexism. You might consider it good sexism, but I do not.

	02-06-2002 07:12									#137
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If you are in a hurry and she is closer it is ok. You just have to HOLD the door open.

And this is in no way meaning that they can't open doors for themselves. Over 150 years ago, how do you think they got to the outhouse and to the cooking area while the guys were out working in fields?

	02-06-2002 07:13									#138
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... and women in strictly Muslim societies do not feel oppressed or inferior either. It does not matter how the people in the society feel, it is when outsiders come in and how they feel is the important thing.

	02-06-2002 07:15									#139
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quote: And this is in no way meaning that they can't open doors for themselves. Over 150 years ago, how do you think they got to the outhouse and to the cooking area while the guys were out working in fields?

They aren't supposed to open doors for themselves if there is a male around (in chivalric code).

And I think we mean different things about holding the door open. What I refer to is when you take the handle, pull it all the way, stand on the outside of the door and let the person pass. NOT when you pass through the door and reach back to prop it open so the person behind you can grab the door and pass through while holding it open for themselves.

quote: If you are in a hurry and she is closer it is ok.

What if you are NOT in a hurry and she is closer?

	02-06-2002 07:16									#140
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But men and women are different. Plus they hold all the cards, which is why we try to be so nice to them. It's like how my debate squad goes easy on the girls that really seem to care about the topic.

	02-06-2002 07:19									#141
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Oh, Imran, Imran. You are so funny. First you call Knoxville "progressive" and then you totally wig out on whether it is proper to hold a door open for a woman.

Has the thought ever once occured to you that the "chivalric" code (as you call it... most people just call it manners) is not in place to limit women but to lessen the wilder impulses in men?

Oh, and I'm yankin' your dishonorable and inconsistant ass off of that boat. I'm not going to allow some child's mother to die just because you want to prove some bullshit ideological point.

By the way, why, if everbody is equal, do children get special treatment?

	02-06-2002 07:19									#142
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quote: But men and women are different. Plus they hold all the cards, which is why we try to be so nice to them.

This is the main problem with most guys. They treat women differently because they are so desperate to get some. They try to be all nice and sweet to them when that might not really be them at all. I prefer the be yourself approach.

quote: It's like how my debate squad goes easy on the girls that really seem to care about the topic.

This is horrible IMO. Be nice to a person because of their gender. Sexism.

This isn't really what I am refering to though. Because it isn't chivalry to go nice on the girls because they 'hold all the cards' . That isn't a very chivalric idea, Apoc. Back to Southern Manners school for you!

I just am concerned when women who come from the North feel condescended to by men there.

	02-06-2002 07:20									#143
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I think that people should be free to show extra courtesy to women. I have never met a woman who didn't appreciate the gesture. I understand however that Hillary Clinton despised it when men offered to hold a door open for her etc. She, I suppose, is the epitome of everything that the South does not stand for. This "sexism' thing has gone way too far. There really is a difference between men and women although they are both equal.

	02-06-2002 07:24									#144
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I don't do it to get some, I do it because a part of me wants to do a lot of good so I'll have meaning in my life. I'm never happy so I might as well help someone be.

	02-06-2002 07:25									#145
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quote: First you call Knoxville "progressive" and then you totally wig out on whether it is proper to hold a door open for a woman.

Progressiveness means that men and women are equal and neither should be required to hold the door for the other.

quote: Has the thought ever once occured to you that the "chivalric" code (as you call it... most people just call it manners) is not in place to limit women but to lessen the wilder impulses in men?

It is manners to hold the door for others. HOWEVER, it is chivalric when it is said 'men must hold the door open for women'. Don't be daft here, you know that is what is said. That MEN must hold the door open for WOMEN. It is never said the other way around.

I never said it was in place to disciminate (though it might have been), but that is the result. And why should WE lessen men's 'wilder impulses' by creating a set of ideals that say one gender must cater to the other?

quote: By the way, I'm yankin' your dishonorable and inconsistant ass off of that boat. I'm not going to allow some child's mother to die just because you want to prove some bullshit ideological point.

And my g/f would kick your ass and drag me back onto the boat . I'm sorry, but I don't feel it necessary to die and cause grief to my loved ones for a stranger.

quote: By the way, why, if everbody is equal, do children get special treatment?

Children aren't equal, that's why . Men and women are equal... genders are equal. Children aren't the equal of their parents. This has been set, in law, in philosophy, etc. And thus, better for one that has a full life ahead of him than one who doesn't.

	02-06-2002 07:27									#146
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quote: I don't do it to get some, I do it because a part of me wants to do a lot of good so I'll have meaning in my life. I'm never happy so I might as well help someone be.

By WHY just women? Why not a man too?

	02-06-2002 07:29									#147
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quote: By WHY just women? Why not a man too?

I do help out guys, just not in that way. If I hold open a door for a man who in no way needs help, I'd be considered gay and already too many people think that.

	02-06-2002 07:32									#148
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LOL, well I don't .

And I consistently help men by keeping doors open for them, or asking my friends if they need help in carrying things.

Expand, my brother!

Or, lets just agree to disagree

	02-06-2002 07:36									#149
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You don't think I'm gay because you have only been talking to the real me. The real me seems very disturbing in person, especially with the deep voice.

I help people carry things in too, but I'm not going to carry everything for a man unless he has a hurt back.

	02-06-2002 07:38									#150
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Well I'm not going to carry everything for a woman as well, Apoc . She's strong enough, why am I being the pack mule .