17-06-2002 23:46									#61
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soul doesn't exist.

	17-06-2002 23:47									#62
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Stefu, it seems you're talking about ethics, not physics

	17-06-2002 23:47									#63
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quote: It looks like Stefu is worried about the fate of the soul when the transportation process begins.

Oh, great. Now you made it look like a religious argument, and the whole knee-jerk atheist crowd can dismiss it out of hand.

	17-06-2002 23:48									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great then again does it make a difference?

Difference for who?

For the observer, or for the guy that got killed in this thingie?

	17-06-2002 23:50									#65
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well ultimately your consciousness ends and you have no memories anyway, so does it make any difference whatsoever wether its "you" or an exact replica of you that walks around for those extra 20 or 30 years....

	17-06-2002 23:51									#66
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Even if you're a hard core materialist, there is a open question of how matter organizes in order to create that illusion of sapiency most of us seem to experience every now and then... I'd be wary of disruption at the material service level, no matter how short - think of it as rebooting your computer. No matter how much alike your next session is going to be it wont be quite the same.

And stefu's point holds. Just because your replica can't tell the difference deoesn't mean you're not dead.

	17-06-2002 23:52									#67
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"then again does it make a difference?"

Doesn't make a difference to me if you slobs wink out of existence or are recreated.

From a personal perspective, I think I'll pass though.

	17-06-2002 23:52									#68
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A simple technical problem:

Someone has thought about the energies that there would be involved in the conversion of 90 kg of mass(what weighs a person) in energy?:

E=mc^2 = 90Kg x (300000000 m/s) ^2 =
=8.1 X 10^18 Joules

equivalent to move 810000000000000 tons

	17-06-2002 23:52									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Oh, great. Now you made it look like a religious argument, and the whole knee-jerk atheist crowd can dismiss it out of hand.

It is a religious arguement and the knee jerk atheist crowd has rejected it out of hand, ex. Ecthelion.

	17-06-2002 23:53									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great so does it make any difference whatsoever wether its "you" or an exact replica of you that walks around for those extra 20 or 30 years....

Of course it does! You people are crazy.

	17-06-2002 23:56									#71
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quote: Originally posted by thorgalaeg A simple technical problem: Someone has thought about the energies that there would be involved in the conversion of 90 kg of mass(what weighs a person) in energy?: E=mc^2 = 90Kg x (300000000 m/s) ^2 = =8.1 X 10^18 Joules equivalent to move 810000000000000 tons

??? but you're not actually moving anything, just information about the organization of atoms...

	17-06-2002 23:57									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Of course it does! You people are crazy.

i don't see how it does?

	17-06-2002 23:59									#73
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quote: ??? but you're not actually moving anything, just information about the organization of atoms...

It is only an example, i am speaking about the energy involved in the process

	18-06-2002 00:02									#74
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well yeah of course it would be some obscene ammount of information... then again gigabytes were unheardof some 30 years ago

	18-06-2002 00:05									#75
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information is irrelevant, the teleportation gets done without any energy calculation necessary.

on the contrary, any attempt to measure things would mess up the poor quantums. think heisenberg.

	18-06-2002 00:06									#76
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quote: It is a religious arguement and the knee jerk atheist crowd has rejected it out of hand, ex. Ecthelion.

Well, I don't see it as a religious argument. I see it as MY GOD PEOPLE ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY INSANE argument. The two match occassionally, but not always.

And besides, I really *am* scared about possibility of teleporting humans. I realize it's unlikely I'd have to use the self-replication suicide machine myself, but still, the humanist part of me screams at the thought of people dying, even if they're stupid enough to use the self-replication suicide machine. And it certainly doesn't help the argument to paint it in such terms that goodish part of population can just dismiss it as religious nuts raving.

	18-06-2002 00:07									#77
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What is he doing with me? Did he say "except for" or "expecially"?

	18-06-2002 00:07									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great i don't see how it does?

It doesnt matter to you whether there is an exact replica going for 20 years in the world because YOU are dead.

	18-06-2002 00:08									#79
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quote: Originally posted by thorgalaeg A simple technical problem: Someone has thought about the energies that there would be involved in the conversion of 90 kg of mass(what weighs a person) in energy?: E=mc^2 = 90Kg x (300000000 m/s) ^2 = =8.1 X 10^18 Joules equivalent to move 810000000000000 tons

The whole point of quantum "teleportation" is that you transport the information, and not the matter/energy. That equation is not applicable.

	18-06-2002 00:09									#80
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did he just say than amount of energy is equal to that amount of mass? is he crazy?

	18-06-2002 00:14									#81
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hahahahaha


anywho,

quote: on the contrary, any attempt to measure things would mess up the poor quantums. think heisenberg.

well thats why the person has to die... cause when you take the information from those quanta they all go bye bye

	18-06-2002 00:15									#82
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that's why you don't take it from them, dude.

have you never heard how quantum teleportation works?

	18-06-2002 00:18									#83
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Cmon, the laser was just quantum transportation.

Stefu consists of atoms, which we'll learn to teleport a bit later. Stefu's brain consists of atoms. And Stefu's brain has impulses that make him realize he's Stefu. So, when Stefu teleports, it will be Stefu who comes out, not just a copy of him. Why? Because the end product will have the same mind and consiousness. Hence, it's Stefu.

As for "soul". The so-called sould is brains, and brains will be teleported.

Of course, if we take it's 5 years to teleporting atoms, it's at least another 7 years to starting teleport lifeforms.

	18-06-2002 00:19									#84
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Ecthelion, have you worked on it? You seem too educated about quantum teleportation. It has only became reality today, anyhow!

	18-06-2002 00:21									#85
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I'm not that educated at all but I nkow how it is supposed to work if it works.

Well, I was introduced to one possible realization once. No energy required, no measurement, nothing.

Don't exactly remember how it works, but it has to do with quantums in a system being always different.

	18-06-2002 00:22									#86
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I got to log off now, but I guess I'll do some reading on the Net on the subject tomorrow.

	18-06-2002 00:23									#87
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teleporting a single atom shouldn't be terribly difficult relative to an organism, even a bacteria... and what if there aren't enough atoms in the area you're teleporting it to to construct the organism... you'd end up with 2 dead stefus...

	18-06-2002 00:26									#88
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First we need to learn transporting atoms, dead or alive. From there it is a shorter hop to starting transporting bacterias, mice, etc. From there it's still a good hop, IMHO, to transporting the most advanced creatures found on Earth - humans.

	18-06-2002 00:29									#89
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Stefu's apprehension is well founded.

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that there is some sort of 'soul' that operates on a level that science hasn't been able to observe yet. We still don't understand the human brain well enough to be sure that everything that makes up consciousness can be attributed to our current model of how it functions.

That being said, I would volunteer to go through the machine when/if it's ever built. My soul (if it exists) isn't worth much anyways. And the possibility also exists that 'I' (my replica) would end up with a better one...

	18-06-2002 00:36									#90
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quote: Stefu consists of atoms, which we'll learn to teleport a bit later. Stefu's brain consists of atoms. And Stefu's brain has impulses that make him realize he's Stefu. So, when Stefu teleports, it will be Stefu who comes out, not just a copy of him. Why? Because the end product will have the same mind and consiousness. Hence, it's Stefu.

It will have the exact replica of my mind, yes. And it will have the exact replica of my body, yes. And it will have the exact goddamn replica of the goddamn impulse pattern, too. And the Stefu that comes from the other end will have my memories, and my habits, and as far as that guy is concerned, the teleportation was a rabid success and he wonders why he ever had such misgivings about it - and he'll likely do it again, killing himself in the process. As far as I'm concerned, though, I'm dead. Deader than a rock, mainly because rock never was alive to die for in the first place.

I still wonder what happens when you turn the knob to setting 'replicate'. Or if you deviously *don't* destroy me after my replica is created.

There's one experiment, in fact, that could convince me that soul, if you want to call it that, doesn't die, but somehow transports. Do the transportation tango, but don't kill the original version. If I transport, then hey, it's a success! If I'm still standing where I was, then it was not.

And yet...

And yet...

What does this prove? Absolutely nothing! If it works correctly, which I highly, highly doubt, then there are two Stefus - there's me, who has been transported, and whatever's left in the original body (what would there be?), which doesn't belive it has worked, and continues to be horrified that technology like this exists. And if it doesn't work correctly, there still are two Stefus - there's me, who doesn't believe it has worked and continues to be horrified that technology like this exists, and the other guy, who does believe it has worked. Outsider can't tell the difference. Hell, the two Stefus couldn't agree with each other about whether it's worked, thanks to both being stone-cold *convinced* that they're the real McCoy and other isn't.

And, of course, there would be no small amount of problems caused by there being two Stefus. The legal issues this could cause. If we accept the self-replication suicide machine as something that kills people, then we might even have to punish people for killing themselves. And then again, the other guy, being Stefu, also has right to live, and has done nothing wrong - well, apart from killing himself.

Fascinating issue. Fascinating. Too bad there would be people dying.