18-06-2002 16:09									#151
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Where's IntgrSpin when you need him?

Anyway, I think quantum transportation would probably be the only way you can be transported and not have to worry about dying in between, since there can only be one of you at any point in time, so in fact you can't create a duplicate and the paradox never actual comes up.

The real question remains is what creates the illusion of consciousness, being that the entire brain remains very malleable and any one part can change. I guess an analogy can be made to a fire, which looks like a constant thing, but is in fact the very process of change

Last edited by Thucydides on 18-06-2002 at 17:26

	18-06-2002 16:14									#152
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Clever said, very clever. Let's see how much matter teleportation differs from light teleportaion.

	18-06-2002 16:57									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Clever said, very clever. Let's see how much matter teleportation differs from light teleportaion.

Rather a lot I suspect.

There are two physicists that I know of here.

Rogan Josh and KrazyHorse.

KrazyHorse posted on a less active thread on the same subject. I found it just now.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=53236

I think that thread died quick BECAUSE of what KrazyHorse said. Quantum entanglement is neither teleportion nor instantaneous.

	18-06-2002 17:20									#154
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I wish KH came here and explained something to us in plain English .

But yes, from what I know about physics, atoms and quants differ quite well.

	18-06-2002 17:40									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu The problem is me being killed!

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

	18-06-2002 17:42									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Oh, great. Now you made it look like a religious argument, and the whole knee-jerk atheist crowd can dismiss it out of hand.

I'd already done that, thanks.

	18-06-2002 17:57									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred I think that thread died quick BECAUSE of what KrazyHorse said. Quantum entanglement is neither teleportion nor instantaneous.

They're exploiting quantum entanglement to do a form of teleportation.

It's like they're finding out everything about a particle in one place, relaying the info at lightsepeed to another place and then recreating a duplicate of the particle. The difference between this and what they actually did, though, is that by using quantum entanglement instead of actually processing data about a particle, you get an exact replica every time, and you don't actually have to do a measurement (nature takes care of things for you).

It's like the difference between an infinitely precise analog tape recorder and a CD...

	18-06-2002 18:02									#158
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KH:
1. So if atoms get transported, is the original destroyed?
2. Does teleportation happen at light speed, instead of being instant. That is, it will still take a few minutes to get stuff mined on Mars, then, and 2 seconds for Moon.

	18-06-2002 18:05									#159
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1) In the process as it stands, yes
2) Information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light. It was true when Einstein came up with the special case of his Theory of Relativity, and it's true now

	18-06-2002 18:22									#160
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Re: 2. It's an arguable thing, IMO. In theory of Einstein and others, the lightspeed is the complete speed limit. However, tachyons might be travelling faster than light, which would also possibly enable them to travel backwards in time. Again, this is what I read in Hawking's books.

	18-06-2002 18:25									#161
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Tachyons:

a) are only hypothetical particles
b) even if they exist, may well be precluded from interacting with things that operate in the time-like Universe

	18-06-2002 18:34									#162
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quote: If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

...but is made out of metal, then it's well-made duck-imitating robot.

	18-06-2002 19:14									#163
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But it's not made of metal; it's made of the exact same stuff that you already are.

Stefu, you're already bubbling and fading in and out of existence trillions of times a second at a quantum level anyway. There's no such thing as a continuous consciousness. Ned Ludd would be very proud of you...

	18-06-2002 19:19									#164
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Right, there is no sould, so that's quite OK to teleport. Once that has been tested enough to prove safe, I would agree to.

Tachyons hypothetical, you say? I thought it's almost proved they exist.

	18-06-2002 19:21									#165
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One Question
Why does the original need to be destroyed?

And Some Thoughts
If the replica is exactly the same as the original, then will it not be the same person? And by same person I mean more than just copy of body and mind, I mean the consciousness that Stefu and others (and I) are worried about being destroyed.

The only way to tell for sure is to teleport someone without destroying the original. Then, if your consciousness still exists in the replica, and in you, then you might be two people at once. But since that seems very improbable, I'm guessing Stefu is right and that it is a suicide machine.

	18-06-2002 19:23									#166
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quote: Tachyons hypothetical, you say? I thought it's almost proved they exist

Not even close. Nobody has any idea even how to test for them, or what properties they'd have beyond the obvious ones required to be consistent with the Special Theory. They're just one of those interesting theories that could be self-consistent but which has no base in reality (isn't required or indicated by any measurements we know of).

	18-06-2002 19:23									#167
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse But it's not made of metal; it's made of the exact same stuff that you already are. Stefu, you're already bubbling and fading in and out of existence trillions of times a second at a quantum level anyway. There's no such thing as a continuous consciousness. Ned Ludd would be very proud of you...

In that case KH, how do we know that the Stefu that is with us now is not a replica? He would not know, because he thinks he's the original. And we would not know either. The original Stefu is already dead and has ceased to exist. But since he's dead and not here, we don't know that either.

	18-06-2002 19:25									#168
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quote: Right, there is no sould, so that's quite OK to teleport. Once that has been tested enough to prove safe, I would agree to

Where would this "soul" of yours exist? WQhat form would it take? Why aren't you afraid of it getting left behind when you get on an airplane?

	18-06-2002 19:25									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael In that case KH, how do we know that the Stefu that is with us now is not a replica? He would not know, because he thinks he's the original. And we would not know either. The original Stefu is already dead and has ceased to exist. But since he's dead and not here, we don't know that either.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

	18-06-2002 19:27									#170
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quote: And Some Thoughts If the replica is exactly the same as the original, then will it not be the same person? And by same person I mean more than just copy of body and mind, I mean the consciousness that Stefu and others (and I) are worried about being destroyed.

Exactly, and this is why Stefu should have no worries. And I just don't believe in soul, I believe in brain, it's everything a human has.

	18-06-2002 19:29									#171
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Sorry, solver. I misunderstood your post when I responded to it. I thought you were saying that we had to prove that the sould didn't exist through rigorous testing.

	18-06-2002 19:32									#172
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I have a pet duck.

One day someone sneaks into my house, kills my duck, and replaces it with a duck that looks exactly the one I had and has had its memories switched so it thinks it's my duck.

I don't know the difference. The duck doesn't know the difference.

But my poor dead duck up in duck heaven does.

	18-06-2002 19:43									#173
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Lorizael, you're wrong. Clearly, the new duck (new Stefu) doesn't know the difference. You (or people talking to Stefu) don't know the difference. And noone knows - the original duck is dead, and it does know nothing. It has no soul.

Post-mortal life? Something else...

	18-06-2002 19:49									#174
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quote: This made me think about something a friend said the other day: Since eternity exists, after you die your exact combination of atoms will at some point be re-assembled - but would that be you?

there has to be an infinite number of atoms for that to be true...

	18-06-2002 19:50									#175
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Yes, it doesn't make a difference to all those alive. And the dead duck doesn't actually know (I don't believe in an afterlife). But the original duck's existence has ceased.

	18-06-2002 19:53									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great there has to be an infinite number of atoms for that to be true...

No there doesn't. Just an infinite amount of time and energy to keep them recombining. The latter is definitely lacking, and so might be the former.

	18-06-2002 20:07									#177
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Right, the energy certainly has a limit, and I remember reading a few years ago there might be about a gugol atoms in the Universe - like 10E120.

	18-06-2002 20:09									#178
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Number of particles in Universe is around 10^81, IIRC.

	18-06-2002 20:10									#179
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And a googol is 10^100

	18-06-2002 20:12									#180
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Particles? Solver said atoms. There are obviously fewer atoms. So how many atoms are there? Or do you mean atoms?