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Thorgal is offline Thorgal
King
Tarifa, Cádiz.
Jan 2002
time: 05:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 00:48
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quote:
The whole point of quantum "teleportation" is that you transport the information, and not the matter/energy.

That sounds very nice. But you can not teleport matter to a point of the space if in the destination point, there is not matter. I want to say that you can not create matter from nothing. A transport must exist.

Andrew1999 is offline Andrew1999
Warlord

Aug 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 00:51
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There's several levels of non-living objects to test this on too. I'd imagine transporting somebody's laptop while it's running would be a big hurdle, for example.

LDiCesare is offline LDiCesare
King
La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 00:52
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quote:
First we need to learn transporting atoms, dead or alive.

You should be ashamed. Killing those atoms!
Seriously, Stefu, I had the same misgivings about teleportation and such at a time. I talked with a SF writer who made this point:
When you go asleep, when you wake up, what makes you sure you are the same old self?How do you know? You weren't there in between, or were you conscious all the time?
And who can explain what the Theseus paradox is?
Anyway, I think that teleporting information is what matters.

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:05 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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quote:
Seriously, Stefu, I had the same misgivings about teleportation and such at a time. I talked with a SF writer who made this point:
When you go asleep, when you wake up, what makes you sure you are the same old self?How do you know? You weren't there in between, or were you conscious all the time?


"What makes you sure"! How reassuring!

For one thing, I do not actually die during sleep - I would die during this teleportation process. I'm don't know too much about what happens during sleep, but I'd wager a guess it's different enough from what happens during teleportation that the two aren't comparable.

ranskaldan is offline ranskaldan
Prince
Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:11
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The thing is, it is impossible to know whether you die or not during teleportation.

In fact, no matter how many trials you get, there is NO way we can EVER know.

So as far as I'm concerned, I'm not stepping into any such device either.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
King
in Yellow
Jan 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:19
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**Warning: weird ramblings**


From what I've read, it's not nearly as simple as "send info on X - destroy X - create copy Y from info".
To my understanding they are transporting quantum states uninterrupted, an important distinction from "ordinary" copying.
Whether this will transport the original consciousness uninterrupted as well, I can't tell. Hell, I can't even form an opinion here, except through intuition, which is a pretty useless tool in physics once you go to QM.

A good test would be to see if this thing could create duplicates, but even then both could be the true you, but immediately become "different" because of existing in different places. Ie . you'd only be the same thing as long as you were completely identical.

As a final question, how would teleporting differ from traveling in time from position A to position B?
In teleporting, would you die any more than you die while passing through time?

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:23 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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quote:
In teleporting, would you die any more than you die while passing through time?


Well, possibly, if we're talking about time travelling - to the future or back in time, for example.

Then again, time travelling is even more impossible than matter transmission.

LDiCesare is offline LDiCesare
King
La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:24
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quote:
I'd wager a guess it's different enough

Well, you're gambling your life every night then.
From your conscience point of view, what makes you sure you are 'the same'?
The question is what are you? If you define yourself as the continuity of your consciousness, then teleportation is safer than sleep. Or do you feel like you must be the same in a spatial continuity through time (probably like your position can be derived along time and any dimension of space at any point)? If so, you can indeed never teleport. However, space continuity is a macroscopic thing. I am pretty sure your wave function would be continuous in space and time, and, from a quantum point of view, your position is a consequence of your wave function, so that point probably doesn't hold.
Now my quantum mechanics courses are err... 10 year old, so I may just have been telling utter bullshit.

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:29 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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quote:
Well, you're gambling your life every night then.


Well, sleep deprivation would kill me sooner or later anyhow, so it isn't that big a gamble.

quote:
If you define yourself as the continuity of your consciousness, then teleportation is safer than sleep.


Why?

And again, I'm not a sleep expert, so I don't know what happens to consciousness while you sleep. It certainly is somewhere back there, ready to awaken you if anything threatening happens.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
King
in Yellow
Jan 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:42
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DiCesare has a very good point about wave functions and whatnot, IMO (no, I've no idea if I'm spewing BS either ).
In fact I can't see any difference between the end result of teleportation and going somewhere by classical means.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 01:46
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I'm with Stefu here. I don't see any logical way I can be dissambled at the atomic level and then reassembled and it's still the same me. It may be a perfect replica, but it seems in the transport process my consciousness would be broken at some point. I'd die, and there's my doppelganger.

I'd become the unibomber before stepping into one of these things.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
King
in Yellow
Jan 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:04
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The way doesn't have to be logical, and probably isn't either, in a conventional sense!

I'm frying my brain thinking about this, we need someone like MtG or IntgrSpin to educate us...

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:11 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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I stopped thinking about 30 minutes ago. I've thought too much today. First a retest on mathematics, then I got into thinking about subject as cheerful as "what happens after death?" and now this.

Now I just listen to music.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:14
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I bet getting disassembled by a teleporter hurts like hell. Personally, I don't think its possible.... humans that is. I'm sure teleporting regular objects will happen.... maybe raw materials. I can see mining on other planets and beaming the minerals to Earth.

Kassiopeia is offline Kassiopeia
Emperor
Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:17 Visit Kassiopeia's homepage!
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The moment I read of Stefu's concern, that quote about going to asleep and waking as a different person came to my mind.

Because, really, how can I tell that it is *I* who went to sleep last night? Maybe I'm just a replica that has the exact memories of the old me.

Therefore, the only problem with teleportation is the fact that people are aware of the fact that their old self will be destroyed.

If we could trick people into believing that it is actually their very matter that is transported, and that there remains no former self that is destroyed, then no-one would care except the people who built the bloody thing.

Problem solved, everyone would be happy, except that those builders might be somewhat reluctant to use the device.

But, then again, I myself would never dare using such a thing.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by thorgalaeg

That sounds very nice. But you can not teleport matter to a point of the space if in the destination point, there is not matter. I want to say that you can not create matter from nothing. A transport must exist.


Consider how much energy it takes to send a fax. Paper in, paper out, not transfer of matter. Your analysis using E=mc2 is incorrectly being applied, just as it would be incorrect to apply it to the analysis of how much energy is required to send an e-mail, fax or other information.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:20
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Blackstone: we're the continuity of our consciousness. But the sleeping example isn't valid . You're partly conscious, even when you're asleep. and multiple proccesses occur in your brain. This does make me think deeply about being in a coma status.



"....if I die before I wake..."

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:25 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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quote:
Problem solved, everyone would be happy, except that those builders might be somewhat reluctant to use the device.


Not to mention that it would be highly unethical and there would be people dying.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:32
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details, details .

Kassiopeia is offline Kassiopeia
Emperor
Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:34 Visit Kassiopeia's homepage!
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quote:
Not to mention that it would be highly unethical and there would be people dying.


Bummer.

There could be situations where the benefit of this would outweigh the unethicality. Of course, running such a covert operation would probably fall to pieces as time passes by.

But, say, replicating the entire mankind to another place for it to survive... I would keep the passengers ignorant of them actually being simultaniously killed, just to smooth out the transition...

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:47 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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quote:
But, say, replicating the entire mankind to another place for it to survive... I would keep the passengers ignorant of them actually being simultaniously killed, just to smooth out the transition...


Say, this all would make a cute sci-fi story. Transportation technology, with people slowly realizing that it's killing them.

Ah well, probably done before.

Kassiopeia is offline Kassiopeia
Emperor
Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 02:53 Visit Kassiopeia's homepage!
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quote:

Ah well, probably done before.


Yup, all good ideas have already been thought of...

Writing scifi in the fifties was a hoot easier then nowadays. Everything's just a big cliché now.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
King
in Yellow
Jan 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:02
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I'm thinking we need to understand the consciousness much better to even speculate this.
It's perfectly possible that even if you do die on the other end, the same consciousness will be there on the receiving end. I'm not even sure there's anything unique about a person per se, after all the sense of individuality could just be a byproduct of our limited observation capabilities.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:03
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It's already been made. We're dying everytime we go asleep.

Kassiopeia is offline Kassiopeia
Emperor
Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:06 Visit Kassiopeia's homepage!
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That's right Dalgetti, and if you are in Haifa, Israel, at this very moment, you must be feeling very, very sleepy...

Teleportation, well, we would first have to figure out the essence of 'sentience' first... (which has been pointed out in this thread n times already)

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:12
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I am falling asleep....

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:15 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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I'm feeling sleepy, too.

Kassiopeia is offline Kassiopeia
Emperor
Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:16 Visit Kassiopeia's homepage!
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The concept of "resting in peace" gets a whole new meaning...

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:17 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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The Fly.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:20
  Old Post 18-06-2002 03:18
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back to topic people. So , do we die , when we go into coma?

 
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