27-06-2002 01:02									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You have a constitutional right to refuse to say the pledge, but no right to tell others not to or how to say it. Let it be.

	27-06-2002 01:11									#32
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What I want to know is when this particular court will find that the flag is unconstitutional?

quote: The case was brought by Michael A. Newdow, a Sacramento atheist who objected because his second-grade daughter was required to recite the pledge at the Elk Grove school district. A federal judge dismissed his lawsuit, but the 9th Circuit ordered that the case proceed to trial.

No need to use court time for criminals and the like. Let's occupy it because Suzie's daddy was offended by something.

	27-06-2002 01:16									#33
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Come on Dino, I expected better of you. "under God" was not originally in the Pledge; it was added to it in the '50s, as a way to affirm American democracy against "godless" communism. "In God We Trust" was added to paper money at the same time for the same reason, IIRC. The phrase "under God" is a worthless anachronism and it's high time it got tossed into the wastebin of our history.

Agreed, though I'm not quite as vehement about it. As Kirnwaffen pointed out, you don't HAVE to say it. There are more important issues out there that I'd rather we tackled, but if this was THE ISSUE up for debate, I'd be all for dropping the "under God."

-Arrian

	27-06-2002 01:19									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Come on Dino, I expected better of you.

Perhaps you could tell me what is wrong with what I've posted.

	27-06-2002 01:35									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

*counts the days until this is overturned by a higher, less insane court*

	27-06-2002 01:36									#36
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber What I want to know is when this particular court will find that the flag is unconstitutional? No need to use court time for criminals and the like. Let's occupy it because Suzie's daddy was offended by something.

Hey, this is important stuff if you live in Berkley.

	27-06-2002 01:41									#37
	Tired of ads?

yeah, as long as you have the right to refuse to say it, I don't have a problem with it being said in school...

	27-06-2002 02:01									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

w00t Boshko is a psychic I put getting rid of under god/in god we trust in my political platform post a few days ago

The "under god" and the "in god we trust" are pretty much annoying relics of McCarthyism (although there was a limited issue of in god we trust coins during the civil war so its not quite that simple) that I certainly won't miss (I've cross a few in god's we trust off some bills back when I was bored and had nothing better to do ).

E Pluribus Unum and One Nation Divisible!

	27-06-2002 02:10									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good, it should be unconstitutional.

	27-06-2002 02:13									#40
	Support Apolyton

I hate to disappoint you, Asher & Boshko, but the decision is legally DOA either when it is heard before the entire 9th Circuit or when it hits the SCOTUS.

	27-06-2002 02:15									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Why should the State force you to say something about religion?

You might not mind it because you are religious.

What if the Pledge required you to say "Under Satan" rather than "Under God", would you still not mind it?

	27-06-2002 02:17									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher Why should the State force you to say something about religion? You might not mind it because you are religious. What if the Pledge required you to say "Under Satan" rather than "Under God", would you still not mind it?

The state doesn't require you to say it.

	27-06-2002 02:18									#43
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I have a compromise position:

"... One nation, under Banana, edible..."

-Arrian

	27-06-2002 02:19									#44
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The state doesn't require you to say it.

Obviously never been to many public schools in a while, have you?

	27-06-2002 02:20									#45
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I have a compromise position: "... One nation, under Banana, edible..." -Arrian

and I have your new national symbol right here:

a drat didnt work

	27-06-2002 02:23									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Asher Obviously never been to many public schools in a while, have you?

When I went to school we said the pledge. But as I stated earlier in the thread there were two kids that never stood up to say it and nothing was ever said of it. It comes down to bad teachers, not a state enforced religion.

	27-06-2002 02:26									#47
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Still, why should one of the State's "slogans" or "messages" have anything to do with religion?

It's a very useless part of the pledge and non-religious people tend not to like it.

	27-06-2002 02:27									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Asher Still, why should one of the State's "slogans" or "messages" have anything to do with religion? It's a very useless part of the pledge and non-religious people tend not to like it.

do you want a state or do you want a nation?


actually it doesnt matter. it is a nation.

	27-06-2002 02:28									#49
	Put an end to popups!

All religious references must be removed from the government, it is about time that this was made unconstitutional. My plan is coming closer to completion.....

	27-06-2002 02:29									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher Still, why should one of the State's "slogans" or "messages" have anything to do with religion? It's a very useless part of the pledge and non-religious people tend not to like it.

If it's useless then ignore it and go with your life. There are other issues out there that actually impact people in real ways. Instead the courts will be tied up because some dad was offended.

	27-06-2002 02:29									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Thorn All religious references must be removed from the government, it is about time that this was made unconstitutional. My plan is coming closer to completion.....

wont ever happen untill there is a world government (unless of course that is your plan )

	27-06-2002 02:32									#52
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber If it's useless then ignore it and go with your life. There are other issues out there that actually impact people in real ways. Instead the courts will be tied up because some dad was offended.

It's already been ruled.

It's the appeals to put it back in that will tie up the courts.

Besides, why can't we just change it to "Satan" so everyone is equally offended, da?

	27-06-2002 02:33									#53
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Besides, why can't we just change it to "Satan" so everyone is equally offended, da?

Then you know of my plan? Now you must be eliminated, or swear alliegence to me!

	27-06-2002 02:33									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

point is, i think, there always going to be references to god or symbols about him/gher/it and what have you...

these will propably never go away completely.

but there is going to be an increasing "sensitivization" to the cocnerns of people who dont want to be influenced by those.

(as in your pledge or our prayer or whatever)

	27-06-2002 02:34									#55
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Why should the State force you to say something about religion?

The State isn't forcing you to say it. That isn't what the case is about and is already black letter Constitutional law. What the ruling does do is force those that want to say it, to stop.

	27-06-2002 02:34									#56
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Asher Good, it should be unconstitutional.

Where, in the Constitution, does it say freedom FROM religion?

	27-06-2002 02:36									#57
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The State isn't forcing you to say it. That isn't what the case is about and is already black letter Constitutional law. What the ruling does do is force those that want to say it, to stop.

How do you figure it forbids people from saying it?

quote: Where, in the Constitution, does it say freedom FROM religion

Does the US constitution not have a clause about separation of church and state?

	27-06-2002 02:36									#58
	Support Apolyton

quote: Where, in the Constitution, does it say freedom FROM religion?

It is implied!

	27-06-2002 02:37									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Asher Does the US constitution not have a clause about separation of church and state?

Does it not also guarantee freedom OF religion?

	27-06-2002 02:39									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher It's already been ruled. It's the appeals to put it back in that will tie up the courts.

The article mentioned that all the court did was over turn it being thrown out. It will be up to the offended to continue the case through the trial.

quote: Besides, why can't we just change it to "Satan" so everyone is equally offended, da?

How does this fit in the argument?