27-06-2002 03:46									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln If that phrase is "grossly unconstitutional" then so is the constitution. It was ratified "in the year of our LORD ?? 1779..."

Yes, but at least Americans don't need to swear that in order to pledge their allegiance.

Besides, what other calendar is there for them to use anyway?!

	27-06-2002 03:49									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I think atheists are upset because the pledge does not say "one nation without God..."

Don't be silly, Lincoln...

Can you honestly not see the difference between requiring that no religion be publicly sponsored and requiring that lack of religion be publicly sponsored?

	27-06-2002 03:51									#93
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The ratification of the conventions of nine states, shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the states so ratifying the same.

Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

	27-06-2002 03:51									#94
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quote: By forcing you to pay for the school they recite it in, they're not actually allowing for freedom of religion.

Bullshit. Tell me how they are taking away the freedom to believe what you want to believe in by making you pay for a school where the Pledge is voluntary?

quote: Same as if they taxed people to support a certain political point of view...

You mean if they taxed people to support a certain group that supports one political viewpoint that you don't have to suscribe to? Happens all the time. At points in time, the FBI and CIA were solidly for one party or the other. That ain't unconstitutional.

quote: monotheism > an ideal of patriotism which is grossly unconstitutional, unless you're talking about the Iranian constitution.

I asked for a real answer. Monotheism equaling an idea of patriotism is an answer that will get you laughed out of the Supreme Court. There is nothing in the Constitution which gives a **** about patriotism.

quote: Yes, but at least Americans don't need to swear that in order to pledge their allegiance.

But every elected official has to swear to uphold the Constitution.

	27-06-2002 03:52									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The ratification of the conventions of nine states, shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the states so ratifying the same. Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

You're right, Lincoln, that shouldn't be there either.

The difference being you don't require anyone to say that on a regular basis.

Do you always say it's "The year of our Lord 2002"?

	27-06-2002 03:54									#96
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Imran, you're being very Republican now and it's scaring me.

Not everyone is a monotheist, why the hell is the American government always talking about monotheism, regardless of everyone else?

Even Canada isn't that screwed up.

	27-06-2002 03:55									#97
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What is silly is denying the history of the United States by redacting words that are in almost all of the founding documents and pretending that the Supreme Court itself and the Congress does not use the word 'God' in the constitutionally authorized routines.

	27-06-2002 03:56									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You mean if they taxed people to support a certain group that supports one political viewpoint that you don't have to suscribe to? Happens all the time. At points in time, the FBI and CIA were solidly for one party or the other. That ain't unconstitutional

So it wouldn't be unconstitutional for president Bush to receive public monies and use it for his campaign fund?

Your example of different agencies having different political slants is silly. There's a difference between overt and covert support. Like if the FBI painted all of its vehicles with campaign ads, that would be overt...

	27-06-2002 03:57									#99
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quote: Imran, you're being very Republican now and it's scaring me.

No, I'm interpreting the Constitution very strictly.

quote: Not everyone is a monotheist, why the hell is the American government always talking about monotheism, regardless of everyone else?

Because they are morons?

I don't like having 'God' everywhere, but I don't find anything unconstitutional with it.

	27-06-2002 03:58									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln What is silly is denying the history of the United States by redacting words that are in almost all of the founding documents and pretending that the Supreme Court itself and the Congress does not use the word 'God' in the constitutionally authorized routines.

Hey, Lincoln, wake up, not all Americans are dumb enough to go to church, and would rather those people who haven't clued in yet stop talking about their religion in oft-stated State slogans.

It's annoying and obsolete.

	27-06-2002 03:59									#101
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Get rid of the stupid pledge.

Perhaps the schools should be teaching the three R's instead.

	27-06-2002 03:59									#102
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You cannot change history or the constitution because some wacko court hates Christians.

	27-06-2002 03:59									#103
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And Lincoln, how else would you have had your founding fathers refer to the date? It was the dating system commonly in place, and had nothing to do with endorsing a religion. I'm an atheist and I use "a.d." all the time, which is simply shorthand for "Anno Domini"; "The Year of Our Lord". I do not, however, refer to myself as living "under God", a much more clearly religious sentiment.

	27-06-2002 04:00									#104
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Alright, for those of you so eager to keep the pledge unchanged, here's a new version.

If you think "under God" should be kept, but have any problems with this new version, you're contradicting yourself. If you think "under God" should be kept, but it's wrong to have this new version recited aloud across American schools, you're contradicting yourself.

"I Pledge Allegiance, to the flag of the United States of America and to the Capitalist Rightist Republic for which it stands, one White-only Male-dominated Nation under The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, indivisible, with no income tax, all-privatised healthcare, and support for only Israel and not Palestine."

Hey, I mean, you shouldn't have any problems with this either, right?

	27-06-2002 04:00									#105
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quote: So it wouldn't be unconstitutional for president Bush to receive public monies and use it for his campaign fund?

Hmmm, yes, it would. Only because it wouldn't be allocated for that use. Can't use things for things they aren't allocated for.

quote: There's a difference between overt and covert support.

Good, you just about invalidated your point. Public schools can't overtly promote religion, so taxes going to them does not mean the Pledge is unconstitutional, because it doesn't overtly promote ONE religion.

	27-06-2002 04:01									#106
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Lincoln, come on...

We're not changing the history of the United States by removing "Under God", which itself 'changed the history of the united states' when it was added in the 50s.

Your whining is getting really annoying. If you want to keep saying Under God, you can do so, the next generation of Americans won't. If this stands.

And that's okay by me.

	27-06-2002 04:01									#107
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quote: If this stands.

It won't... but we should take it out, just not through the legal system.

	27-06-2002 04:01									#108
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Well you should repent then. Why use that dating method at all if you despise the mention of God that much?

	27-06-2002 04:03									#109
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quote: Hey, I mean, you shouldn't have [/b]any[b] problems with this either, right?

No problems... as long as I'm not forced to say it.

	27-06-2002 04:03									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Well you should repent then. Why use that dating method at all if you despise the mention of God that much?

Same reason the US still uses the English system.

Everyone's just used to it. We don't care about its religious meaning.

	27-06-2002 04:03									#111
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quote: Good, you just about invalidated your point. Public schools can't overtly promote religion, so taxes going to them does not mean the Pledge is unconstitutional, because it doesn't overtly promote ONE religion

It overtly promotes one certain type of religion. i.e. the monotheistic ones...

	27-06-2002 04:04									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Lincoln, come on... We're not changing the history of the United States by removing "Under God", which itself 'changed the history of the united states' when it was added in the 50s. Your whining is getting really annoying. If you want to keep saying Under God, you can do so, the next generation of Americans won't. If this stands. And that's okay by me.

It seems like the atheists are whining. This would not even be an issue if it wasn't for a whining atheist whos ear drums were apparently offended when he heard the dread G word.

	27-06-2002 04:04									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Hey, I mean, you shouldn't have [/b]any[b] problems with this either, right? No problems... as long as I'm not forced to say it.

Right.... so you will be sending your children to school, where, even if they don't say it, this "pledge" will be ringing around their ears and being recited by all their friends?

	27-06-2002 04:06									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln It seems like the atheists are whining. This would not even be an issue if it wasn't for a whining atheist whos ear drums were apparently offended when he heard the dread G word.

I'm not endorsing doing stupid stuff like he's done, but now that it's done, why are you whining against it?

You act like you're mortally crushed and the world is going to collapse if the Pledge doesn't have "under God" in there.

Somebody needs a reality check.

	27-06-2002 04:06									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln It seems like the atheists are whining. This would not even be an issue if it wasn't for a whining atheist whos ear drums were apparently offended when he heard the dread G word.

I'm not offended by someone talking about God; I'm offended when somebody uses public resources to talk about God.

	27-06-2002 04:08									#116
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quote: It overtly promotes one certain type of religion. i.e. the monotheistic ones...

Doesn't really promote anything (How many people believe there is one God because school made them say 'under God'?). I mean, you say the pledge and nothing else is said about religion. How does this violate your freedom to have whatever religious belief you want?

quote: Right.... so you will be sending your children to school, where, even if they don't say it, this "pledge" will be ringing around their ears and being recited by all their friends?

Probably not, but I still find nothing unconstitutional about it.

	27-06-2002 04:09									#117
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I don't say the pledge anyway. I think the whole idea with or without God is kind of dumb. I just find it amusing when atheists cannot stand the word God to be mentioned in public. Grow some thicker skin. Everyone in this society is offended by something some idiot public official does.

	27-06-2002 04:09									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln It seems like the atheists are whining. This would not even be an issue if it wasn't for a whining atheist whos ear drums were apparently offended when he heard the dread G word.

I bet that if the pledge said "one Nation without God", the theists wouldn't be just whining.

	27-06-2002 04:09									#119
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quote: I'm offended when somebody uses public resources to talk about God.

Same here... but I don't see it as unconstitutional. The President saying 'God Bless America' in a State of Union isn't forcing a religion.

	27-06-2002 04:09									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It overtly promotes one certain type of religion. i.e. the monotheistic ones... Doesn't really promote anything (How many people believe there is one God because school made them say 'under God'?). I mean, you say the pledge and nothing else is said about religion. How does this violate your freedom to have whatever religious belief you want?

Yes it does. As the article mentions, Ike's own thoughts on the matter were that such a phrase would promote a certain brand of religion. That's why he added it.