27-06-2002 04:10									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Right.... so you will be sending your children to school, where, even if they don't say it, this "pledge" will be ringing around their ears and being recited by all their friends? Probably not, but I still find nothing unconstitutional about it.

So you think that the line should stay?

	27-06-2002 04:11									#122
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Read the post above yours ranskaldan. I think that the whole country has gone to pot. Words or pledges with or without God are not going to solve our problems.

	27-06-2002 04:11									#123
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quote: Yes it does. As the article mentions, Ike's own thoughts on the matter were that such a phrase would promote a certain brand of religion. That's why he added it.

That might be why he added it (his intent), but the phrasing doesn't promote jack (the effect). How does this take away your freedom to believe what you want? Even if a public authority says what they believe, you can disagree.

	27-06-2002 04:12									#124
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quote: So you think that the line should stay?

No, I don't. But I don't think the judiciary should change it. The legislature should.

	27-06-2002 04:12									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Read the post above yours ranskaldan. I think that the whole country has gone to pot. Words or pledges with or without God are not going to solve our problems.

If I have to put up with it, fine. But I don't think that it's right, and while there's an opportunity to change it, it should be changed.

	27-06-2002 04:14									#126
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Anyway this has been a fast moving thread but now I have some important stuff to do like wash my socks.

	27-06-2002 04:15									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I'm offended when somebody uses public resources to talk about God. Same here... but I don't see it as unconstitutional. The President saying 'God Bless America' in a State of Union isn't forcing a religion.

The President is paid to have a certain point of view in governing the country. He can say "God Bless America" all he wants. He can also believe, and act and speak on the belief, that Israel is completely in the right in its current conflict. Having schoolteachers teach such a view is unacceptable because they aren't political animals.

	27-06-2002 04:17									#128
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quote: The President is paid to have a certain point of view in governing the country. He can say "God Bless America" all he wants. He can also believe, and act and speak on the belief, that Israel is completely in the right in its current conflict. Having schoolteachers teach such a view is unacceptable because they aren't political animals.

School teachers are allowed to speak their beliefs in class as they are teaching and many of them do.

	27-06-2002 04:19									#129
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Really? My schoolteachers always tried to provide a balanced view of their subjects. If pressed they'd give an opinion, but only after telling everybody that it was just an opinion...

	27-06-2002 04:21									#130
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A lot try to do that. But I've had plenty of teachers that gave their views. Especially one history teacher that told us what he thought very often.

And of course, college professors can always state their opinions.

	27-06-2002 04:22									#131
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Funny thing. I grew up in Utah, the religious nuthouse of the world, And after I finished 8th grade, the pledge of allegiance just disappeared.

Probably because somebody whined about "having" to say "under God."

	27-06-2002 04:25									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui A lot try to do that. But I've had plenty of teachers that gave their views. Especially one history teacher that told us what he thought very often. And of course, college professors can always state their opinions.

College profs are paid to have opinions, professionally. Plus there's lots of competing viewpoints, so no tyranny, and as college students are usually slightly more independent thinkers, it seems less like indoctrination...

	27-06-2002 04:28									#133
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Everyone's agreeing with each other!
Mmm, this debate seems to be over.

	27-06-2002 04:37									#134
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Well, not quite, ranskaldan .

I don't like the phrasing, but I don't think it unconstitutional either.

	27-06-2002 04:41									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Obviously never been to many public schools in a while, have you?

I usually didn't say it (the one or two times a year it was said)

so yes, in current public schools it is not a requirement (in fact is hardly ever (in my expereince) used)

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 04:43									#136
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Magical sky pixies and governments don't mix.

Anyway, to me the whole idea of reciting a pledge to a specific country is laughable. I've only had to say such a thing when I joined the military, and even then I rolled my eyes the whole time.

	27-06-2002 05:44									#137
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So, who wants to answer the question of what god has to do with being american, or vibing off the american spirit?

	27-06-2002 05:45									#138
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My answer: Who cares? .

	27-06-2002 05:47									#139
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apparently the senators who voted against the judges' rulings.

	27-06-2002 05:50									#140
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I like the matter-of-factness of this guy here, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill.

quote: "Of course, we are one nation, under God. The Pledge of Allegiance is a patriotic salute that brings people of all faiths together to share in the American spirit. "

	27-06-2002 05:50									#141
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Good to see the McCarthyist relic die.

Of course, it'd be better if the whole idea of pressuring young children to recite loyalty oaths in school were scrapped on that basis alone.

quote: I still find nothing unconstitutional about it.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [monotheism] ..."

	27-06-2002 05:56									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh apparently the senators who voted against the judges' rulings.

I think Congress set a speed record with that resolution.

PS What are the chance that this might bring out the Republican base in the upcoming elections? Skimming the news today, it looks like that is a distinct possibility.

Ramo: This decision is so far outside the mainstream of Constitutional thought that, which isn't suprising for this court, that there is no chance of it surviving an appeal before the SCOTUS. It doesn't even fail the tests the Court has set forth in Establishment cases.

	27-06-2002 05:58									#143
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Looking at thier record, I'm starting to think that the justices on the 9th Circuit are a bunch a masochists.

	27-06-2002 05:59									#144
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quote: Good to see the McCarthyist relic die.

It didn't die. Likely to be overturned.

quote: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [monotheism] ..."

And like I said, how is this establishing a state religion? That's right, it isn't.

	27-06-2002 06:00									#145
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I don't see how this is substancially different from a prayer...

What are the tests, BTW?

	27-06-2002 06:01									#146
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quote: And like I said, how is this establishing a state religion? That's right, it isn't.

It promotes one set of religions over another.

	27-06-2002 06:03									#147
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quote: I don't see how this is substancially different from a prayer...

And I'm don't think that voluntary prayer in school in unconstitutional.

However, the SCOTUS will draw a line, saying the Pledge is promoting patriotism and the prayer is promoting religion, thus keeping praying out of school, but the Pledge in (bet ya ).

	27-06-2002 06:03									#148
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I think it has a good chance of bringing out the religious right. GWB loves throwing in a god comment here and there too. He routinely talks about all Americans in prayer etc...

This will be laughed away as some leftist nonsense, futher delegitimizing alternative perspectives.

	27-06-2002 06:03									#149
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quote: It promotes one set of religions over another.

So.. ?

How does promoting one set of religions lead to ESTABLISHMENT of religion? It doesn't.

	27-06-2002 06:06									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How does promoting one set of religions lead to ESTABLISHMENT of religion? It doesn't.

Sure it does. It sets norms, and what will become legitimate and acceptable in society.

Why isn't it "one nation, under several gods..."