27-06-2002 06:07									#151
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quote: Sure it does. It sets norms, and what will become legitimate and acceptable in society.

Doesn't matter. What is 'legitimate and acceptable in society' has no standing in Constitutional law.

	27-06-2002 06:08									#152
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I mean we are indivisable, right?

	27-06-2002 06:09									#153
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But the freedom of religion doesnt exactly fly when one religion is being 'pushed' over others.

	27-06-2002 06:11									#154
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quote: But the freedom of religion doesnt exactly fly when one religion is being 'pished' over others.

Doesn't matter. As long as the people are free to worship as they please, there can be a member of the Christian Right as President, with prayer in schools, etc, as long as it is all voluntary (if you look at the 1st Amendment).

	27-06-2002 06:13									#155
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voluntary, but initiated by you school masters. That isnt right. Do you think it is right?

	27-06-2002 06:18									#156
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No, I don't think it is right.

But it isn't unconstitutional either.

	27-06-2002 06:19									#157
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quote: And I'm don't think that voluntary prayer in school in unconstitutional.

http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n061900a.html

quote: How does promoting one set of religions lead to ESTABLISHMENT of religion? It doesn't.

Again, the wording is:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [...]"

An establishment of religion is a church.

Promoting a bunch of churches is equivalent to respecting an establishment of religion.

	27-06-2002 06:22									#158
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I know what the SCOTUS says in terms of school prayer, and I think they are wrong. 100%.

quote: Again, the wording is: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [...]" An establishment of religion is a church. Promoting a bunch of churches is equivalent to respecting an establishment of religion.

No, establishment of religion is making an official state church. Promoting one set of religions does nothing of the sort, it simply promotes a set of religions. I don't see how that leads to an official state church. Therefore it, in no way, leads to an establishment of religion, and neither does prayer in schools.

	27-06-2002 06:28									#159
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quote: I don't see how that leads to an official state church.

The government uses public taxes to support monotheism. How does this not lead to official state churches?

	27-06-2002 06:29									#160
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http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/new...pdf?openelement

The entire text of the decision.

BTW, anyone watching Hannity and Colmes?

edit: url screwed up

	27-06-2002 06:31									#161
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Does it have the dissent as well?

	27-06-2002 06:32									#162
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What were they doing on Hannity and Colmes? All I see is Mr. Klaas now.

	27-06-2002 06:40									#163
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quote: The government uses public taxes to support monotheism. How does this not lead to official state churches?

How is public taxation being used to support monotheism when the Pledge isn't mandated by the government?

How can you equate saying 'under God' in a pledge and prayer in schools to an official state church is beyond me. You will find few legal scholars who will agree with you on the Pledge being against the 1st Amendment.

Saying 'under God' in the Pledge is not Unconstitutional and it shall be settled when the SCOTUS hears it (I'm thinking an 8-1 decision).

	27-06-2002 06:40									#164
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Well, they had Newdow on.

I was asking since the only TV in this house that gets FOX News, my mom's watching (something on CBS). I wanted to know what the highlights were.

And yes, it includes the dissenting opinion. He only dissents with one part of the majority opinion, the part about the establishment clause. (Sorry it's in PDF format, but I couldn't find a good .html version-- indeed ANY html version)

	27-06-2002 06:45									#165
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quote: How is public taxation being used to support monotheism when the Pledge isn't mandated by the government?

IIRC, Virginia forces its schools to have the pledge (this occured fairly recently - i.e. within the past couple years). I wouldn't be surprised if a number of other states do as well.

	27-06-2002 06:47									#166
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quote: IIRC, Virginia forces its schools to have the pledge (this occured fairly recently - i.e. within the past couple years). I wouldn't be surprised if a number of other states do as well.

Ok, but I guarentee you then, every challenge has been defeated in the courts. Why? Because saying 'under God' in a Pledge who's main object is non-religious is not in anyway an establishment of a state sanctioned religion.

	27-06-2002 06:50									#167
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Oh, another example. States that teach Creationism aren't violating the 1st Amendment, because that isn't an establishment of religion.

	27-06-2002 06:51									#168
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The McCarthyists seemed to make a big deal about that addition.

	27-06-2002 06:53									#169
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quote: States that teach Creationism aren't violating the 1st Amendment, because that isn't an establishment of religion.

That's absurd, regardless of what SCOTUS thinks!

	27-06-2002 06:54									#170
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Imran:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mclean-v-arkansas.html

	27-06-2002 06:56									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's already been ruled. It's the appeals to put it back in that will tie up the courts. Besides, why can't we just change it to "Satan" so everyone is equally offended, da?

Say Asher, as a Canadian you're not in much of a position to pass judgement on another country's seperation of church and state. Doesn't your country give public funding to schools of just one religion but deny funding to schools run by any other religion?

	27-06-2002 06:59									#172
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Vlad, that's a District Court Decision in 1981. Can I see the Appeals ruling on that?

quote: That's absurd, regardless of what SCOTUS thinks!

That's what you think. I don't think it is absurd at all. The 1st Amendment strictly prohibits 'establishment' of religion. Teaching creationism requires great streaching of the 1st Amendment to be called establishment of religion.

	27-06-2002 07:03									#173
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quote: Teaching creationism requires great streaching of the 1st Amendment to be called establishment of religion.

Why?

	27-06-2002 07:03									#174
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Because teaching something has nothing to do with making it a state supported position. If that were the case then every university in the US would be guilty of trying to establish religion.

	27-06-2002 07:04									#175
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Couldn't find an appeals ruling, but I could find a SCOTUS ruling on creationism. It's regarding a different case (Louisiana's pro-creationism statute), though.

Here it is:

http://cns-web.bu.edu/pub/dorman/ed..._aguillard.html

	27-06-2002 07:05									#176
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I still haven't seen a satisfactory explination of how this violates either the Establishment or Free Exercise clauses given the fact that the child wasn't put under pressure to recite it.

	27-06-2002 07:05									#177
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And Shinto. Plus freedom of religion means the freedom not to have a religion...

In Shinto the Emporer is a god!

	27-06-2002 07:06									#178
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vlad:

(a) The Act does not further its stated secular purpose of "protecting academic freedom." It does not enhance the freedom of teachers to teach what they choose and fails to further the goal of "teaching all of the evidence." Forbidding the teaching of evolution when creation science is not also taught undermines the provision of a comprehensive scientific education.

It doesn't say teaching creationism is unconstitutional. It says that this act did not do it right (because it bans teaching evolution until creationism is taught).

	27-06-2002 07:13									#179
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quote: Because teaching something has nothing to do with making it a state supported position.

If the state forces teachers to teach that position, it certainly does.

	27-06-2002 07:15									#180
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I disagree totally. It has nothing to do with establishing a state religion. You are still free to worship as you wish, since it is not forced upon you.