28-06-2002 09:32									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Don't you see the paradox? Creationists ask why God would need to be created in order to create the world, others ask why the World needs to be created to exist. They're both saying the same thing, but the Creationists are a bit too out there considering there's zero evidence of it. And plenty against it.

umm

the world needs to be created to exist based upon scientif evidence (and I mean created as in there must be some cause that caused the world to form)

now win you get down into how the universe came into existence you come into a more complicated question in physics (Hawking and others have written about what could have happened)

our universe obeys laws of causality and the like, a God outside of the universe would not need to obey these laws

I would recommend reading some philosophy (particularly that of Time)

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:33									#152
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quote: But a lot of scientists are religious (about as many as are nonreligious). And a scientists job is not one condusive to having a lot of faith

Scientists (as a whole) are much less religious than the population that surrounds them. The least religious scientists are...physicists and mathematicians.

	28-06-2002 09:34									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller our universe obeys laws of causality and the like, a God outside of the universe would not need to obey these laws

Good show, my friend!

	28-06-2002 09:35									#154
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: Our bodies, for instance, are so complex, that the odds of them just evolving over a long period time is like 1 in centillion (680 zeros) The odds of you being born were pretty highly improbable too. This is a perfect chance to apply the anthropic principle with no logical fallacy. You have to show that intelligence of any kind is impossibly unlikey to have evolved in nature.

I think that saying that there must be a creator (at any point in the universe's evolution) and that is God is going down the wrong road (from my position as a Christian and a theist)

it needs to be a choice, not some A -> B -> C

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:35									#155
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How do you know that the Universe follows the laws of causality, Jon?

Just because it is now doesn't mean it has always been so.

	28-06-2002 09:36									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Yes. Change makes life interesting. I like when things change, especially when I would get back something nice like love.

then I would suggest that you search for it

the search is somewhat ongoing (and I have derailed at times)

it was highly personal for me, so good luck

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:38									#157
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quote: I think that saying that there must be a creator (at any point in the universe's evolution) and that is God is going down the wrong road (from my position as a Christian and a theist) it needs to be a choice, not some A -> B -> C

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that God is more clever than to leave his tracks on the Universe? If so, then I have no argument with you. There is no possible way for me to disprove that God created the Universe.

Those I have problems with are people who try and prove that God did such-and-such because it would have been impossible without him. I suspect that this is what Cloud9 was trying to do, and demonstrated the flaw in his logic.

	28-06-2002 09:39									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse There are Roman records of his crucifixion. I'd find them right now, but this thread is moving too quickly and at the moment I'm spending all my time replying. Maybe once it slows down.

This is just plain wrong, sorry:

"There are no surviving Roman records of the First Century that refer to, nor are there any Jewish records that support the accounts in the Christian gospels --- except one.

In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. "

Notice it was written 60 years after Jesus died. That's it. And his text is highly controversial, many theologians believe he was just making it up. It certianly is not contemporary.

Another good source:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...ser/hojfaq.html

And:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aca.../JesusHist.html

	28-06-2002 09:40									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller then I would suggest that you search for it the search is somewhat ongoing (and I have derailed at times) it was highly personal for me, so good luck

I do search. But right now I am unable to reach even the emotion of really liking something. I have found someone that I should love, someone that I really care what happens to. I don't love her though.

	28-06-2002 09:40									#160
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: But a lot of scientists are religious (about as many as are nonreligious). And a scientists job is not one condusive to having a lot of faith Scientists (as a whole) are much less religious than the population that surrounds them. The least religious scientists are...physicists and mathematicians.

yes, but there are physicists and mathematicians which are religious

and 100 years ago it was biologists which were the least religiouos

I personally think it has to do with searching for explanations of what was superstition results in throwing away the good in religion with the superstition in religion

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:41									#161
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I suspect that this is what Cloud9 was trying to do, and demonstrated the flaw in his logic.

Eh, um!

What flaws?

	28-06-2002 09:41									#162
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: I think that saying that there must be a creator (at any point in the universe's evolution) and that is God is going down the wrong road (from my position as a Christian and a theist) it needs to be a choice, not some A -> B -> C I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that God is more clever than to leave his tracks on the Universe? If so, then I have no argument with you. There is no possible way for me to disprove that God created the Universe. Those I have problems with are people who try and prove that God did such-and-such because it would have been impossible without him. I suspect that this is what Cloud9 was trying to do, and demonstrated the flaw in his logic.

to your first statement

yes

sorry all, I got to go now

good luck Apocalypse

bye all

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:42									#163
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse How do you know that the Universe follows the laws of causality, Jon? Just because it is now doesn't mean it has always been so.

It seems to.

Physics takes it on faith that it does (for the most part).

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:43									#164
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apocalypse, how do you define love? (not trying to threadjack).. my definiton is if you are ready to die for him/her, then you love.

	28-06-2002 09:43									#165
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I want to talk more with you all

come on again tomorrow

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:44									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse . . .someone that I really care what happens to.

If that's a fact, then you must love her.

	28-06-2002 09:45									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I want to talk more with you all come on again tomorrow Jon Miller

Ah, same here. Goodnight everyone.

	28-06-2002 09:46									#168
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quote: Cornelius Tacitus was born circa A.D. 52-54 and was a Roman historian. He alluded to the death of Jesus and to Christians in Rome when he wrote: "Hence to suppress the rumor, he (Nero) falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius; but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also" (Annals, XV.44).

I would find a Roman record closer to 30 AD, but this thread is moving fast so I found the first one I came upon.

	28-06-2002 09:46									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Eh, um! What flaws?

The chances of you being born (even given that your parents were planning to have a child together) is probably ~10^-15 or so. Think about how many billions of sperm cells there are...

If we were to use your logic, your birth is a proof for the existence of God. Another example: what are the chances that the number drawn in Wednesday's 6/49 lotto would be 2, 10, 20, 25, 44, 48?

Prior to Wednesday, they were ~13.9 million to one. Right now, they're hovering at around 1-1.

	28-06-2002 09:49									#170
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Apocalypse:

That's not a contemporary account of Jesus's existence. He is simply regurgitating the stories put forward by Christians at the time of the crucifixion. His saying this isn't based on Roman records, but on Christian ideology.

	28-06-2002 09:49									#171
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About my caring for her...I just feel responsible for what happens to her. I indirectly and unintentially caused her great pain. This makes me feel bad. If she was happy, I would not have to feel that way. Thus I can still care about her but not love her.

And I'm ready to die for many people. They have a much better chance of being happy than I do.

	28-06-2002 09:51									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Apocalypse: That's not a contemporary account of Jesus's existence. He is simply regurgitating the stories put forward by Christians at the time of the crucifixion. His saying this isn't based on Roman records, but on Christian ideology.

It is in Annals. Wouldn't you think he'd correct this misinformation if Jesus didn't even exist?

	28-06-2002 09:55									#173
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Apoc: he didn't know any better.

Tacitus's histories are full of many inaccuracies and flat-out falsehoods, because he didn't base his history solely on verifiable record, but also on legend and popular accounts. He had no way of knowing if Jesus did or did not exist, because it was 20 years after the fact, and there were no records of it. But all the Christians of the time believed he existed and could recite the crucifixion stories. Given the Roman use of crucifixion, and his own willingness to rely on hearsay in his writings, he had no reason to not say what he did.

It isn't even close to documentary evidence of Jesus's existence. It's simply his reporting of popular Christian myth of the time.

	28-06-2002 09:59									#174
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One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed movement at the time too though. Just because Tacitus is frequently wrong, doesn't mean he always is.

	28-06-2002 10:16									#175
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quote: One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed

Is this a joke?

	28-06-2002 13:28									#176
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: But a lot of scientists are religious (about as many as are nonreligious). And a scientists job is not one condusive to having a lot of faith Scientists (as a whole) are much less religious than the population that surrounds them. The least religious scientists are...physicists and mathematicians.

I am a scientist (physicist) and I believe in God. In fact, most of my friends are also physicists and a good proportion of them believe in God. At least as high a proportion as in non-science circles. I believe Jon Miller is just starting a PhD in Maths/Physics too.

In fact, I think that the deeper you look into how the universe works the more it looks like it was all 'designed' by someone. It doesn't matter how far we go in our studies we will never be able to answer the question 'why?'. Even if we have some final beautiful theory based on E8xE8' or whatever we will still not know why the universe is this way. This cannot be answered in principle.

There is always room for God.

	28-06-2002 17:14									#177
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed Is this a joke?

No. I'm just saying that the idea that Jesus never existed formed fairly recently. Until then it was accepted he did exist, there was just debate over what he was and what he did.

	28-06-2002 19:02									#178
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'round and 'round we go. Weeeeeeee!



-Arrian
(an agnostic who highly doubts the existence of God)

	28-06-2002 19:11									#179
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And to think this whole discussion started because of a cartoon. But actually I tend to agree with Paitkis here although I think we need to understand what the word "good" means in the Bible.

Hypocrisy is not good. In fact that seems to be the chief sin in God's eyes. Jesus condemned religious hypocrites to hell and held out hope for the common man who "received his words gladly". He also turned the world upside down when he appeared on the scene. He rejected those who thought they had some type of favor with God and he accepted the prostitutes, common sinners, tax collectors and other despised people.

There is no reason to think that he is not doing the same thing now. An atheist who is not a hypocrite may very well enter into the kingdom of God while a so called Christian may find himself without. On the other hand people need to stop mocking God because they do not understand him. He is the only hope and it seems rather foolish to assume that we have more wisdom and knowledge than him. He will mock those who mock him. So if an atheist is not sure I think it is best to refrain from ridicule until you do know for sure.

An atheist who claims that he does know for sure that there is no God is likewise a fool. I respect agnostics more than I do a lot of Christians. The point is that God sees the heart of man and he is not fooled by hypocrites or do-gooders whos motives are not pure. Doing good is not always good in God's eyes and openly sinning is sometimes just a cry for help that God will hear before he hears the prayer of a hypocrite.

	28-06-2002 19:12									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed movement at the time too though.

Why? Remember that there wasn't the standard of scholarship then there is today.

quote: Just because Tacitus is frequently wrong, doesn't mean he always is.

The times when Tacitus is right is when his writing is supported by other historical accounts and documentary evidence. The times when he is wrong are when he relies on rumor, hearsay and popular legend. His recounting of Christ is the latter.

I'm not personally saying Jesus didn't exist. I'm only pointing out that there is no documentary evidence he did. So basing Faith on some sort of supposed factual reasoning is, in fact, not reasoned. Faith, in and of itself, is irrational. That doesn't make it wrong, it's just something that is beyond the scope of reason.

Keep your Faith, by all means. But we should also keep historical fact separate from religious legends.