29-06-2002 11:41									#91
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Hey KH what with the southern belle talk?

I can't help it when people are silly...

	29-06-2002 11:42									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Like you would really know. You obviously never had the will to look for it.

I was raised as a Protestant.

quote: Brainwashed? And how many times is that that you have insulted me?. . . I can't recall me ever insulting you, so please don't do it me. Thank you. I'm glad we have an agreement. Be .

You insult the intelligence of man with your drivel.

	29-06-2002 11:43									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So what you're saying is the bible does not contain the wisdom and beliefs of God, but other people unrelated to God then?

(Quite frankly i knew this would hit me when i made that argument, i used to fear this argument)

The Old Testament has very little that i feel is relevant. It It was written by people who felt they were transmitting god's will to paper and by historians of the Jewish people (mostly jews at least) I instead focus on the new testament, the story of Jesus's life which was checked by several people, as there are 4 valid, non conflicting versions of it (assuming i can count) I obey the 10 commandments as God Wrote them himself but mostly focus on begging forgiveness, which jesus preached. What i'm saying is yes, the old testament very much is written by people like those described in ur post. And No i rarely trust 'em either.

	29-06-2002 11:48									#94
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse As to what it matters, it might explain the juvenile nature of your thinking process. I was envisioning you as around 12, though. By 16 most people are able to see the obvious results of applying their own logic to those with different beliefs, and have thus started on their road to discovering the basis of a fair moral system.

And how old are you? by your own calculations i'd say 12.

	29-06-2002 11:48									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I was raised as a Protestant.

Well, good luck in the afterlife then. I suppose you were never a good Protestant. Probably rebellious. You remind me of my little brother.

quote: You insult the intelligence of man with your drivel.

I disagree with many men.

	29-06-2002 11:48									#96
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quote: The Old Testament has very little that i feel is relevant. It It was written by people who felt they were transmitting god's will to paper and by historians of the Jewish people (mostly jews at least) I instead focus on the new testament, the story of Jesus's life which was checked by several people, as there are 4 valid, non conflicting versions of it (assuming i can count) I obey the 10 commandments as God Wrote them himself but mostly focus on begging forgiveness, which jesus preached. What i'm saying is yes, the old testament very much is written by people like those described in ur post. And No i rarely trust 'em either

And where did you get the idea that God didn't create manking through evolution, then?

	29-06-2002 11:49									#97
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD And how old are you? by your own calculations i'd say 12.

Har har. I'm rubber and you're glue.

That'll teach him.

	29-06-2002 11:50									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Well, good luck in the afterlife then. I suppose you were never a good Protestant. Probably rebellious. You remind me of my little brother.

No, I was never a "good protestant".

I was born something that the church frowns upon. We got off on the wrong foot, the church and I.

I'm hardly rebellious. Anything but. Most people on here probably know that by now.

You're the one that refuses to use MS products, remember?

	29-06-2002 11:52									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You're the one that refuses to use MS products, remember?

Well that just proves you are the spawn of Satan!

	29-06-2002 11:53									#100
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Cloud9, I'm a Christian and probably agree with you on many points, but I don't see how evolution goes against Christianity.

	29-06-2002 11:53									#101
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And where did you get the idea that God didn't create manking through evolution, then?

I commend you, that is an excellent point.

The CounterArgument:

If Evolution Was how a sentinent race was created by god then death was in the world before sin. As the Wages of sin are death it is illogical that death entered the world before sin.

	29-06-2002 11:54									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You're the one that refuses to use MS products, remember?

Not so. And what does that have to do with religion anyway?

	29-06-2002 11:55									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Not so. And what does that have to do with religion anyway?

You posted a thread a while back saying you were going Linux-only.

And it had to do with your silly "you were raised religious and aren't now, so you're rebellious" argument.

	29-06-2002 11:57									#104
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD I commend you, that is an excellent point. The CounterArgument: If Evolution Was how a sentinent race was created by god then death was in the world before sin. As the Wages of sin are death it is illogical that death entered the world before sin.

Could this be reffering to spiritual death? As in seperation from God?

	29-06-2002 11:58									#105
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quote: If Evolution Was how a sentinent race was created by god then death was in the world before sin. As the Wages of sin are death it is illogical that death entered the world before sin

That's the worst theological argument I've ever seen, and I've read Thomas Aquinas.

	29-06-2002 11:59									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You posted a thread a while back saying you were going Linux-only.

I was. Until I started school, through the Internet, that is. It's a requirement which I think is stupid.

	29-06-2002 12:06									#107
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SKILORD, et al.:

As time (defined as years, in this case) has passed, allowing me to refine my thoughts on this subject, I can only come up with the following:

I've always found God outside the churches and outside the holy books. I see God in the night skies when I look up and see the moons, planets, stars and galaxies wheeling overhead. I see God every time an announcement is made of a new celestial discovery, or the discovery of a treatment for some horrid disease. I find God when I am away from the cities and in the countryside ... hearing the rivers flow, the brooks babble and the waves lap on the shores. I see God in the majestic quality and quantity of life that abounds on Earth. I see God ever so briefly when I read about or see people do good things. I see God in the tracts of some of our greatest philosophers. I see God when I have a good day, and can go to sleep at night and dream. Above all, I see God in the tiny, scrunched up faces of our newborn children.

To know God — inasmuch as that's possible — is to know peace, wisdom, music and love. To turn Heaven and Hell into mirrors of Earth — i.e., where people fight all the time and the losers spend "eternity" in lakes of fire planning their revenge — is, well, human.

If what I wrote above sounds hokey, then so be it.

Gatekeeper

	29-06-2002 12:15									#108
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Oh, and BTW, before anyone gets the impression that I'm making fun of anyone with religious beliefs, I'd like to say that I'm not. I know some very intelligent people with very strongly-held religious beliefs, and I respect them greatly.

	29-06-2002 12:16									#109
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Why thanks KH, nice of you to acknowledge me.

	29-06-2002 12:18									#111
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I felt I had to jump fast on that one.

	29-06-2002 16:51									#112
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Skillord,
If someone started trying to convince people that the world was flat, wouldn't you have the urge to correct him and clearly demonstrate the world was round? Since your certain the world is round and that it can be demonstrated, why not enlighten someone as to that point.

I myself started out feeling the same way concerning Christians. However, after an encounter or two with fundamentalist, it should soon become clear to most non-believers that most fundamentalist Christian's beliefs are almost completely emotional based and you have almost no chance of changing their mind no matter how copious the amount of evidence you bring before them.

However, because there are people who neither non-rational creationists or agnostic evolutionists, it helps to debate for the people sitting on the fence, at least when somebody else is around. The second problem is when Fundies become politically active, in which case the only way to fight them is to likewise.

So in other words, I personally don't try to convert a fundamentalist Christian, you would have a better chance of convincing Bill Gates to give away his fortune and company to Apple and become a hermit. In fact, if nobody brings the subject up, neither will I. However, if someone comes up to me about the subject, I'll still debate them about it if for no other reason then to sharpen up my skills and know my enemy. It's not really that I actually expect to convert anyone except those who aren't sure about the subject.

	29-06-2002 17:41									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Atheists do things like walk into a high school in Paducah, Kentucky and open fire on a youth prayer group. Atheists do things like walk into a high school in Columbine, Colorado and blow a girl's head off with a shotgun when she refuses to recant her faith. Atheists do things like walk into a Baptist church in Atlanta, Georgia and open fire on a choir practice.

In the first case, it had something to do with an ex-girlfriend, did it not?

The second case was because that school was full of ultra-Christians who tormented the killers.

Hadn't heard the 3rd one.

What I do find interesting is that all of the school shootings occurred in heavily fundimentalist Christian communities.

	29-06-2002 17:48									#114
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Well, to argue with the next post . . . (cuz I'd killed this post before he posted, apparently)

I did point out that what was taught in schools was merely a closer approximation of Pi. However, 3.14159... is far superior than simply 3. How would we be able to teach engineering students, for example?

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 29-06-2002 at 18:03

	29-06-2002 17:57									#115
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Actually Che,
Pi is just as much equal to 3 as it 3.14. Both are approximations to the real value of pi which is an irrational number. 3.14 is just slightly better approximation to pi then 3 is.

Of course the Bible is full of inaccuracies and downright contradictions, but the example of pi just isn't one of the better ones...

Now the fact that insects have four legs, that's would be fun to teach in Science class (I'm too lazy to find the reference right now)...

	29-06-2002 18:01									#116
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No, Siklord, you don't get off that easy on the Pi question. Mathematics direct contradicts the teachings of any fundimentalist who believes in the absolute truth of the entire Bible. If you can demand that Evolution not be taught in schools because it contradicts a certain religion, then you need to be consistent, and not wiffle away Pi because you don't think the Old Testiment matters. Either public schools may not contradict religion at all or publi schools may teach science and reason.

Now, the problem with the former is that there are a lot of religions out there. We can't discuss astronomy, since it contradicts both Hinduism and Native American beliefs. Can't talk about pork products in Home Ec. We can't discuss American history, since it conflicts with what the Nation of Islam teaches.

Or we can say that it is important for our population to have an understanding in the fundimental questions and methods of science since we need people who can think rationally and scientifically to work in our country.

	29-06-2002 18:28									#117
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Oh here we go again with the old pi falacy. People really should read the Bible. The measurment of 3 takes into consideration the rim of the vessel. For example:

A vessel is to be 3 feet in diameter. The circumference is 9 feet. There is no other measurement for the rim (which is alluded to elsewhere). The measurements then define the diameter and the width of the rim.

	29-06-2002 18:31									#118
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But Lincoln, the Bible said it was a circle, and that it was 10 across and 30 around. Now, from Mathematics, we know that if you divide the circumfrence (30) by the diameter (10) you get Pi. In the passage in question, Pi must =3. Since we know that Pi does not =3, then the vessel must have been incorrectly measured (or, more likely, rounded off because the ancient Hebrews couldn't handle the concept of non-whole numbers). In any event, the Bible is wrong in this one place (at the very least). There is no way around this.

Either we are reading the passage incorrectly or it has been translated into English incorrectly or the Bible has a fact wrong.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 29-06-2002 at 18:38

	29-06-2002 19:01									#119
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The vessel has a rim. It all adds up when you consider the rim.

	29-06-2002 19:03									#120
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All vesssel have a rim.