29-06-2002 19:06									#121
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Look at a teapot. The lid fits on a rim that is smaller that the diameter of the vessel. Or you can have a vessel that has a rim that is larger than the diameter of the vessel like some vases.

	29-06-2002 19:09									#122
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Lordy, now I have to dig out my Bible.

Okay, it says, "it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumfrence." (New Oxford Annotated Bible).

Doesn't say whether the circumference measures the base, the brim, or someplace in between. It does say the brim is "like a cup, like the flower of a lily." This doesn't really tell us anything. It's left open for interpretation.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 29-06-2002 at 19:25

	29-06-2002 20:53									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Hm, I smell a Hasty Generalisation here, if not a downright Red Herring.

I generalize because Christians are generalized, and because a good number of athiests in my community have openly bashed...I choose not to argue.

quote: Are you saying that Christians don't follow science at all?

I should have put quotations.

quote: None. Re-read your quotes again. They are all directed against an institutionalised belief, not against people.

An attack against a belief is an attack against the people who believe it.

quote: At the very least, we don't tell people that they are to be blamed for things that they didn't do. We don't tell people that they are going to suffer eternally.

Who's generalizing now?

	29-06-2002 22:25									#124
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Apparently, the answer to my question is "no".

	29-06-2002 22:33									#125
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD I see Aetheists are often attempting to convert christians to evolution and i must wonder why. I can see no rational reason why. I would think that Aetheists of ALL peaople would be least connested emotionally with religious issues and yet in general they are rabid about the issue and will not tolerate christianity although i can't see why they'd care.

Oh don't expect us to care that much. I don't go out actively looking for Christians to convert, we don't get 'heavenly reward points for every conversion', just call it a 'preemptive strike' if you will because I have had friends who are Christians try every now and again to convince me of the merits of 'biblebashing'. I cut that out from the start, completely and unapologetically.

And remember, this is a website, I am going to debate and argue and articulate my point. I consider religion full of crap, I just like to clarify the reality of the issue. It isn't religion that gets me, it is ignorance, or trying to argue something from a position of ignorance, that gets my goat.

quote: This WILL be a reasonable discussion between a group of rational human beings, not a pitched abattle. Capishe?

Ooooh, get you

	29-06-2002 23:20									#126
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The Pi issue doesn't specifically matter. What matters is that a religion in America could believe something that most of the population considers to be false.

By the logic given here, that would mean this fact we believe is true should not be taught in school, for the simple reason that there a some people who do not believe this fact. Do you understand the point?

And the reason to convert Christians or other religious people.

Because discussion is a good thing. It generates ideas.

Because I believe I am right and want others to at least consider my point. If you don't want people to disucss things with you, then you are being closeminded. I'm trying to prevent ignorance.

And I don't actively convert people. But when someone attempts to convert me, I will do the same to them. It's only fair.

	29-06-2002 23:22									#127
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Just curious, when was the last time an atheist started a war over a scientific idea? Oh yeah, NEVER...

	29-06-2002 23:40									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Just curious, when was the last time an atheist started a war over a scientific idea? Oh yeah, NEVER...

Na the atheist will just use their scientific discoveries as tools of mass death and destruction!

	29-06-2002 23:45									#129
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Atheists used weapons of mass destruction? When? Where?

	29-06-2002 23:48									#130
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But Lincoln, the Bible said it was a circle, and that it was 10 across and 30 around. Now, from Mathematics, we know that if you divide the circumfrence (30) by the diameter (10) you get Pi. In the passage in question, Pi must =3. Since we know that Pi does not =3, then the vessel must have been incorrectly measured (or, more likely, rounded off because the ancient Hebrews couldn't handle the concept of non-whole numbers). In any event, the Bible is wrong in this one place (at the very least). There is no way around this. Either we are reading the passage incorrectly or it has been translated into English incorrectly or the Bible has a fact wrong.

but chegitz you answered this yourself...

*more likely rounded off because the ancient Hebrews couldn't handle the concept of non-whole numbers*

is an answer rounded up or down wrong? I don't think they really cared if people in the future rounded to the nearest tenth, one hundredth, or whole number. It doesn't make it wrong, just not as accurate as it could be.

Hell in home construction rough framing tends to round up to the nearest 1/4", or 1/2", but in machining its to the nearest 64th of an inch.

	29-06-2002 23:48									#131
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Weren't Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot all atheists?

	29-06-2002 23:53									#132
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Hitler was a Christian.

Some of his quotes:

From Mein Kampf:

quote: Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

From a speech in 1922:

quote: My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

Hitler is also quoted as saying:

quote: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".

(Source: Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942)

	29-06-2002 23:53									#133
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How many wars have there been? How many happened to be started by religious people? How many happened to be started by atheists?

I'm betting the percentage will be pretty close to the percentage of those that have a religion and those that don't. Citing facts proves nothing. There needs to be reason.

	30-06-2002 00:03									#134
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Laz is just stirring

It just shows that you can get bastards in any walk of life.

	30-06-2002 00:08									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael How many wars have there been? How many happened to be started by religious people? How many happened to be started by atheists? I'm betting the percentage will be pretty close to the percentage of those that have a religion and those that don't. Citing facts proves nothing. There needs to be reason.

You're using percentages? OK.....

Take "Wars started by theists" as "A".

Take "Wars started by atheists" as "B".

Which shows the greatest increasing trend?

	30-06-2002 00:10									#136
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Well only because there weren't any atheists before, or very, very few...

	30-06-2002 00:12									#137
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Do you have statistics, RJ?

	30-06-2002 00:22									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Hitler was a Christian.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

quote: "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... "Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

10th October, 1941, midday

quote: "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

14th October, 1941, midday

quote: "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... "Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... "...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... "Christianity the liar.... "We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

13th December, 1941, midnight

quote: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... transubstantiation>.... "When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

Source: Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953)

	30-06-2002 00:26									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Hitler was a Christian. Some of his quotes: From Mein Kampf: From a speech in 1922: Hitler is also quoted as saying: (Source: Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Hitler obviously did not believe in free will, in which the Bible clearly says that people can believe in whatever they want to believe, but of course there's only one belief system that is correct.

	30-06-2002 00:27									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Look at a teapot. The lid fits on a rim that is smaller that the diameter of the vessel. Or you can have a vessel that has a rim that is larger than the diameter of the vessel like some vases.

Lincoln, all of this is irrelevant. There are those who hold a religious belief that Pi=3. Does this preclude us from teaching that Pi is an irrational number?

	30-06-2002 00:29									#141
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As you can see by Dinodocs post, Hitler was quite a corrupted man. Certainly you don't believe in Hitler's ways, do you Asher?

	30-06-2002 00:38									#142
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Frankly, I've always found any attempt at conversion, be it Christian to atheist or visa versa, to essentially being a long, frustrating attempt at masturbation without anything to show for it at day's end.

	30-06-2002 00:59									#143
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Lincoln, all of this is irrelevant. There are those who hold a religious belief that Pi=3. Does this preclude us from teaching that Pi is an irrational number?

I only entered this discussion to correct an obvious error that comes from trying to interpret a book without reading it in context or understanding its spiritual nature. Someone said that the Bible can be made to say almost anything, and that is true. But those who claim that it is inaccurate ought to study it for a few years before they make complete fools of themselves.

I don't claim to know the exact interpretation in all instances but I do know enough about it to say that it cannot be disected correctly by someone whose intention is to ridicule it. The Bible says plainly that the message is hidden from the non-spiritual. And people can believe anything they want but that does not change reality.

	30-06-2002 01:04									#144
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I'm not trying to ridicule the Bible; I'm demonstrating that a major segment of your society believes (or believed until fairly recently, at least) that Pi = 3. I was then asking Skilord to apply his reasoning as to why evolutionary biology shouldn't be taught in school to this subject, something he refused to do (he tried to draw attention off the question by starting a separate argument that the Bible shouldn't be interpreted to meant Pi = 3).

	30-06-2002 01:06									#145
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What exactly is Pi? That rings a bell somewhere, but I just can't get it out.

	30-06-2002 01:07									#146
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Hey Lincoln, have you checked your PM's lately?

	30-06-2002 02:02									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 As you can see by Dinodocs post, Hitler was quite a corrupted man. Certainly you don't believe in Hitler's ways, do you Asher?

What a sleazy thing to say. Nowhere did Asher say he had any sort of agreement with the views of Hitler. This is a plain nasty statement. Very un-Christrian of you.

	30-06-2002 02:05									#148
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by The Emperor An attack against a belief is an attack against the people who believe it.

BZZZZZ no it isn't. 100% wrong. You can attack any idea or belief without attacking the people who believe it. That's how we got away from the whole earth-is-flat and -earth-revolves-around-the-sun nonsense.

If you take someone using scientific reason to question your beliefs as an insult, that's your problem, not his.

	30-06-2002 02:36									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What a sleazy thing to say. Nowhere did Asher say he had any sort of agreement with the views of Hitler. This is a plain nasty statement. Very un-Christrian of you.

Well, excuse me. No one is perfect.

	30-06-2002 02:49									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 the Bible clearly says that people can believe in whatever they want to believe, but of course there's only one belief system that is correct.

Reminds me of the "hate the sin, love the sinner" attitude most of you take with homosexuals. Awesome job.

DinoDoc: Has anything changed, or are all of those quotes against Hitler being a Christian still hearsay? All of the public records show Hitler proclaiming himself to be Christian (see my quotes), but somewhere along the lines "private conversations" were unveiled by Christians which "proved" that Hitler was atheist.