06-07-2002 06:26									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Of course you continue to evade the fact that even by your own definition the innocent are being killed. Why does that not bother you? Is the intellectual excersize more important?

You evade the fact that there is no innocent to be killed.
What bother me is that people like you wants to force a woman to have a unwanted baby by protecting something which is not even a living being, just a pack of cell.

	06-07-2002 06:29									#332
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1. If God really wants abortion to be illegal, he would tell us.

2. God knows that not everyone will believe the Bible because he knows not everyone will believe that the Bible is God's word.

God doesn't want abortion to be illegal...

it's a simple conclusion... either that or God as you think you know him, doesn't exist... either way, cloud9, you're wrong.

	06-07-2002 06:32									#333
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One word: Predestination

The assertion that the fetus is any less than human is simply self-delusion.

If you are still comfortable with preventing a human from drawing breath, that's your perogative. I just think you should be equipped with the facts.

	06-07-2002 06:32									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 You know something. I know from the bottom of my heart that people like you are not happy. My eyes and ears have been a witness to this. You feel like there's something missing in your life. You wish you had something more. How do I know? Take a look at this: Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.--Romans 14:22-23 Isn't it obvious? A life of sin is a life of misery. Your lives are like soap operas. You live them from one day to the next faced with one problem after another, with no security, with no reassurance that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Ah well, at least you gave me a good laugh.
Not that I'm THAT against God, I can totally accept the idea He exists.
But such sanctimonious and preaching stance.


And the "I know you're not happy, you did not see the light !".
Marvelous !



Well, let's be serious now, will you ?

quote: Those kind of people are not religious people. They are extremists. They do not really practice a particular faith, but rather bend the rules of a belief system, and do it in the name of a higher being to make their crimes look justified.

On the contrary, these are religious, up to the point they replace evidence with faith, and does not care about being wrong, because in their fanatism, whatever the truth is, they are right.
You know, exactly like you're with the abortion : you refuse to discuss about it, you only rely on faith.
They have misplaced faith. So do you. Same thing.

quote: Well, I guess you haven't done enough research, if any at all. Take a look at this: If men fight, and hurt a woman with a child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.--Exodus 21:12 According to this, those who kill the unborn deserve death. Before you were born, I sanctified you.--Jeremiah 1:5 God says the unborn are truly sacred. For you formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from you, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.--Psalm 139:13-16 The words me, my, and I mentioned here truly says that God does see the unborn as human beings.

Well, these parts are a little confusing, but that's not my main argumentation point, so I will gladly give up on them and stand corrected.

Still waiting for a pro-lifer to disprove my statements. It's been 8 pages.
Wonder why

	06-07-2002 06:33									#335
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I believe that if there were a god it would be one of kindness and mercy. Otherwise I don't see what the point would be if I was supposed to look to god for support.

What if a child is born into a world in which they will not have the opportunity to live a good life? If they are born of a drug addict who was raped or some other terrible circumstance?

If the pregnancy is ended before the child achieves awareness of its surroundings, then is that not better than living a life of suffering?

Does that now show mercy?

But to me at least, this only applies if the child is not yet human. And that is up to science, not god. Once a child has achieved awareness, it can know life and the absence of life. At that point, abortion is wrong.

	06-07-2002 06:34									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Sava 1. If God really wants abortion to be illegal, he would tell us. 2. God knows that not everyone will believe the Bible because he knows not everyone will believe that the Bible is God's word. God doesn't want abortion to be illegal...

Sava's not really with it today is he. And to think that he said that after I clearly quoted the Bible as saying that abortion is wrong in the eyes of God.

quote: it's a simple conclusion... either that or God as you think you know him, doesn't exist... either way, cloud9, you're wrong.

God may not exist to you, but he does to me. Like I've said time and time again, it's all a matter of faith.

	06-07-2002 06:36									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Still waiting for a pro-lifer to disprove my statements. It's been 8 pages. Wonder why

It's because your so stuck-up.

	06-07-2002 06:37									#338
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda One word: Predestination The assertion that the fetus is any less than human is simply self-delusion. If you are still comfortable with preventing a human from drawing breath, that's your perogative. I just think you should be equipped with the facts.

Just because the fetus will someday be a child?

Or do I completely misunderstand your point.

	06-07-2002 06:38									#339
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda One word: Predestination The assertion that the fetus is any less than human is simply self-delusion. If you are still comfortable with preventing a human from drawing breath, that's your perogative. I just think you should be equipped with the facts.

The fetus is a human being.
The embryo is not.

If it does not exist, I can't hurt it. Simple as that. As long as an embryo has not developped the way to get a mind, it's not a human being.
If we consider human anything that has the POTENTIAL to become human, then any spermatozoid is a human, and each masturbation is genocide.

	06-07-2002 06:41									#340
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 It's because your so stuck-up.

It's more because no pro-lifer COULD disprove them.
Because they have nothing to back up their position than blind faith.
In other words : because they are wrong.

I'm all ready to change my mind. Just PROVE me you're right.
Too bad no one even tried to do this

(I can see it coming : "because you won't change your mind/you're stubborn/etc." ; the problem is : it's false. I'm totally ready to change my mind if a pro-lifer prove me I'm wrong. The only problem is that they just can't, because they are the one wrong. Or else, they will prove it )

	06-07-2002 06:41									#341
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cloud9 can you read? God knows that not everyone believes that the bible is his word (like me for instance) if he really existed, he would offer proof to his existence in the form of a giant booming voice for all to hear, or a large burning bush. In the course of human history, don't you think now is a good as a time as ever for a public revelation? Well where is it? Maybe its because the Bible is myth... DUH...

Get a life cloud9, think for yourself, and don't be so gullible to believe in this invisible man who knows all, is everywhere, yet offers no proof of his existence, makes you burn in hell if you're bad, yet still loves you.

	06-07-2002 06:42									#342
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I love the Pro-Life argument... "We're right because a book about a mythical invisible God that was written by religious zealots thousands of years ago, says so!"

I mean, do you believe abortion is wrong because your heart tells you, or because the bible does? If the bible told you that God wanted you to kill abortion doctors, would you do it? me thinks yes!

	06-07-2002 06:42									#343
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Farther than that, Akka. In that case, anything that enters our body (and is not subsequently excreted) has the potential to form a child.

By the logic given so far, a woman sins every month.

If we want to be extreme, that includes most things on Earth. Humans take in a lot of materials.

If this is taken to its extreme. So where do we stop?

	06-07-2002 06:43									#344
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As for the Lord saying abortion is illegal, I seriously doubt that the Almighty is going to come down on high in a rare break of tradition just to tell the U.S. government that its position of pro-choice is unacceptable.

God usually uses intermediares from what I notice, namely prophets and certainly at least one book.

I can think of at least one religious body that looks down on abortion, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a religious institution that promotes abortion.

	06-07-2002 06:51									#345
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I wouldn't put too much stock in any religious institution, period... as I posted in another thread... Galileo's conviction of heresey was overturned in 1979, ... and the ban on Copernicun theory was lifted in 1992... Catholics were allowed to believe that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe just ten years ago... great to see you're keeping up with the times guys. I don't know if you are catholic or not cloud9... but it's great to see that your Christian brothers are making progress. Maybe in 300 years, you guys will admit you were wrong about abortion all along...

	06-07-2002 07:01									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil It's more because no pro-lifer COULD disprove them. Because they have nothing to back up their position than blind faith. In other words : because they are wrong. I'm all ready to change my mind. Just PROVE me you're right. Too bad no one even tried to do this (I can see it coming : "because you won't change your mind/you're stubborn/etc." ; the problem is : it's false. I'm totally ready to change my mind if a pro-lifer prove me I'm wrong. The only problem is that they just can't, because they are the one wrong. Or else, they will prove it )

You have taken the content of any statements that pro-lifers have made on this thread and turned them into something else entirely.

You have repeated the same arguments over and over again, in a continuos never ending loop.

You have been very moody and that implies that your beliefs are based on senseless negative emotions.

This is implies that you refuse to listen to any statements I make, making it pointless to continue this debate between you and I, and therefore you should be. . .

IGNORED!!!

You are now on my Ignore List. It's all over, buddy. Aren't you happy?

	06-07-2002 07:02									#347
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Well if the fear of God is not enough for you, let's talk strictly on a practical sense.

Let's get one point done first.

Is the fetus without a doubt a human?

there's no point in continuing the discussion without asserting this fact first.

	06-07-2002 07:05									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Get a life cloud9, think for yourself, and don't be so gullible to believe in this invisible man who knows all, is everywhere, yet offers no proof of his existence, makes you burn in hell if you're bad, yet still loves you.

You're quite moody, aren't you Sava. Earlier you were saying how theologians were very smart people, now you're condemning every bit of logic we tell you. Are you sure your not manic depressive?

edit: I am a religious person and a theologian, btw.

	06-07-2002 07:08									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 You have taken the content of any statements that pro-lifers have made on this thread and turned them into something else entirely.

False.

quote: You have repeated the same arguments over and over again, in a continuos never ending loop.

Sure. As long as they are not disproven, I don't see why I would even need more argument. Seeing pro-lifers avoiding them is a good hint that they are quite right. You don't prove you're right by ignoring the proofs you are being presented, you know ?

quote: You have been very moody and that implies that your beliefs are based on senseless negative emotions.

Attack on the morality of the poster because you have nothing else left ?

quote: This is implies that you refuse to listen to any statements I make, making it pointless to continue this debate between you and I, and therefore you should be. . .

I accept statements, I just wait for you to do some, rather than just say "I'm right because I have the faith", which is, you know, not a very good proof.

quote: IGNORED!!! You are now on my Ignore List. It's all over, buddy. Aren't you happy?

Yes, blind yourself because you can't bear the truth.
It's much easier than proving you're right - especially when you aren't.

	06-07-2002 07:11									#350
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda Well if the fear of God is not enough for you, let's talk strictly on a practical sense. Let's get one point done first. Is the fetus without a doubt a human? there's no point in continuing the discussion without asserting this fact first.

It's the basis of my whole argumentation : the embryo is not a human being, or else aborting it would be murder. Already posted twice the same post. I trust you'll have a look on the previous pages and won't ask me to post it again.

	06-07-2002 07:19									#351
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You are not a theologian cloud9.... at least not a professional one. You might be a self-proclaimed theologian. Do you have a PhD? Do you teach at a university? I doubt it... but I admit, I could be mistaken.

	06-07-2002 07:25									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You are not a theologian cloud9....

I can answer almost any question about the Bible. The funny thing is, I base my answers on faith before fact knowing deep down inside that there is a spiritual answer for everything. And by God's grace I find an answer every time. Sounds like faith has a big impact on a person, doesn't it?

	06-07-2002 07:29									#353
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That's not faith having an impact on you, that's stupidity.

	06-07-2002 07:31									#354
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I thank our fore-fathers for writing the first amendment so that zealots like you can't run the country with your bibles instead of your brains. God gave you a brain, the bible doesn't tell you that. You can use it, lose it, or abuse it.

So use your brain, don't lose it in the bible, and don't abuse your brain by putting the bible before it. When you crash into the truth, it will hurt .

	06-07-2002 07:40									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Sava hey cloud9...

So Sava, since abortion certainly prevents the baby from ever having a chance to reproduce are you proposing that people who have an abortion be neutered?

	06-07-2002 07:42									#356
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Yeah, that's right

	06-07-2002 07:46									#357
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quote: Originally posted by Sava cloud9 can you read? God knows that not everyone believes that the bible is his word (like me for instance) if he really existed, he would offer proof to his existence in the form of a giant booming voice for all to hear, or a large burning bush.

Nahh. He only does that for simple minded superstitious people. You've got a brain, an education and all the advantages any human being could ever have, so he's letting you make up your own mind for better or worse.

	06-07-2002 07:47									#358
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Yeah, that's the point...

	06-07-2002 08:07									#359
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove . . .so he's letting you make up your own mind for better or worse.

Exactly.

I hope you are thinking the same way of me, Sava.

	06-07-2002 08:08									#360
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That's the problem, though, cloud9. You said that your faith makes your decisions, not your brain. Way to go!