06-07-2002 01:55									#301
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BTW, I'm going to see a movie ya'll: The Sum of All Fears. . .

So C-Ya!

	06-07-2002 01:57									#302
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the person I am now talking to seem reasonable

I might hold his position myself (not certain)

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 01:59									#303
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quote: I was trying to develope the zygote as human since you are not being open minded, instead taking it on faith that the zygote is not human

I already said that the zygote is human.

quote: so you are taking your desired result as given

Not at all. I was pointing out the distinction between human and person, because you keep getting them mixed up.

quote: and you say that does not matter, the zygote is not human

See the first page. I said that the zygote is human since it has the DNA of a human person.

quote: I keep starting to build up a logical basis

It seems to me that all you've been doing is throwing around ad hominens.

quote: I have the zygote status as undefined and am trying to show how it developes

You're not doing it very effectively.

quote: you are being illogical and close minded you are not worthwhile talking to in this matter goodbye

Ditto.

	06-07-2002 02:00									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller the person I am now talking to seem reasonable I might hold his position myself (not certain) Jon Miller

Oh come on, Jon. Don't back down now. In doing so, you will have allowed Satan to decieve you.

	06-07-2002 02:03									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Since the pro-choicers around here are simply not gonna listen to us and keep repeating things over and over and over again when we've already proved that an embryo is human,

1) You never proved that embryo is a human.
2) You never disproven any of my arguments.

quote: Akka le Vil aren't you disturbed by all the murder that is being done?

What do you mean ?
Are you asking me if I'm not disturbed by the murders that happen in the world ?
By the abortions that happen after the fetus got a functionnal brain ?
Something else ?

I'd like to be sure to fully understand the question to be able to adequately answer it.

	06-07-2002 02:07									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Oh come on, Jon. Don't back down now. In doing so, you will have allowed Satan to decieve you.

It's perhaps an attempt to be humorous. But if it's not, it clearly shows that you're much more interested sticking blindly to your beliefs rather than evaluating if they're true or false.

	06-07-2002 02:11									#307
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Yes, everyone knows that a good debate on Nazi Germany is always spiced up with some nice Holocaust pictures. Bring out the body piles! It won't achieve anything, but it -will- shock hapless surfers!

I mean, there obviously exists a comparison for Holocaust pictures in Holocaust museums, websites about Holocaust or TV programs about Holocaust, and abortion pictures paraded on streets or suddenly and without much warning thrust upon us on threads like this.

Do you think PETA's similar antics, except with gruesome pictures of slaughtered animals instead of aborted fetuses, are OK?

	06-07-2002 02:14									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil 1) You never proved that embryo is a human. 2) You never disproven any of my arguments. What do you mean ? Are you asking me if I'm not disturbed by the murders that happen in the world ? By the abortions that happen after the fetus got a functionnal brain ? Something else ? I'd like to be sure to fully understand the question to be able to adequately answer it.

to be fair, he was probably refering to Ramo and the others who were in the argument

and I was refering to murders done after the fetus has a brain

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 02:23									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller and I was refering to murders done after the fetus has a brain

Well, I admit that I'm slighty less disturbed with late abortions than with "classical" murders. Probably because I know it will never touch me (I'm somehow past the fetus stage ^^).
Still, well, I'm against abortion after the fetus has got a sense of feeling (unless of course their is health reasons about the mother, but in these cases there is anyway possibilties to remove the fetus from the womb without killing him).

All in all, I'm disturbed with this like you probably are disturbed when you hear about murders in a distant country. After all it's nearly the same case

But I wonder what this question has to do with the rest of the debate

	06-07-2002 02:50									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Yes, everyone knows that a good debate on Nazi Germany is always spiced up with some nice Holocaust pictures. Bring out the body piles! It won't achieve anything, but it -will- shock hapless surfers! I mean, there obviously exists a comparison for Holocaust pictures in Holocaust museums, websites about Holocaust or TV programs about Holocaust, and abortion pictures paraded on streets or suddenly and without much warning thrust upon us on threads like this. Do you think PETA's similar antics, except with gruesome pictures of slaughtered animals instead of aborted fetuses, are OK?

I am not really shocked by the sight of blood and guts, or pictures of slaughtered animals etc. but I am rightfully disturbed when I see a picture of an innocent human being that was killed. Some people can easily ignore an issue if they are not confronted with the reality that may be presented with pictures.

PETA's antics may be effective but I don't think we are talking about the advertising effectiveness of a cause are we? The fact is that at least one of those pictures was a full term baby. Should we pretend that the sight is not shocking? Why should debates like this be limited to ridiculous arguments about the words "human", "person" and "viability"? I think that the pictures that he posted are entirely appropriate here.

	06-07-2002 03:29									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The fact is that at least one of those pictures was a full term baby. Should we pretend that the sight is not shocking? Why should debates like this be limited to ridiculous arguments about the words "human", "person" and "viability"? I think that the pictures that he posted are entirely appropriate here.

The fact that one of these abortion was excessive and should not have been made does not make adequately timed (before the brain develops) abortions wrong.

	06-07-2002 03:38									#312
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That is like saying that of the 6 million Jews killed there were several thousand that were convicted killers. Why would you want to minimize the deaths of the innocent by pointing out that some of them may or may not have a developed brain? Is splitting hairs somehow supposed to produce a legitimate diversion from the fact that real babies with real brains are being killed even as we argue about brain development?

	06-07-2002 03:56									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln That is like saying that of the 6 million Jews killed there were several thousand that were convicted killers. Why would you want to minimize the deaths of the innocent by pointing out that some of them may or may not have a developed brain? Is splitting hairs somehow supposed to produce a legitimate diversion from the fact that real babies with real brains are being killed even as we argue about brain development?

Completely stupid.
I won't be part of such an absurd amalgam.
The fact is : it seems that USA are allowing abortion much too late. This particular case does not mean that well-done abortion is bad, just that some are. You just become hysterical on the issue and try to associate good use and bad use of something with emotionnal outburst, as you probably have nothing else to back up your beliefs.

	06-07-2002 04:03									#314
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What is "good" about killing babies? I guess I don't follow you. And how is killing a baby "well done" -- when there are no pictures?

	06-07-2002 04:06									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln What is "good" about killing babies? I guess I don't follow you. And how is killing a baby "well done" -- when there are no pictures?

If you want be part of the discussion and be ready to BACK UP your position, then come back to the second previous page and read my big post. THEN, try to disprove my reasonning.

If you just want to wave your arms in the air and shout "baby-killer baby-killer !" and only argue on the emotionnal side, then do it elsewhere, where you won't prevent others to have a serious discussion.

	06-07-2002 04:16									#316
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You are welcome to evade reality by the use of semantics all you want. Go for it.

	06-07-2002 04:51									#317
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quote: to be fair, he was probably refering to Ramo and the others who were in the argument

Why would he be referring to me?

	06-07-2002 05:12									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil It's perhaps an attempt to be humorous. But if it's not, it clearly shows that you're much more interested sticking blindly to your beliefs rather than evaluating if they're true or false.

It doesn't matter wether their true or false. I have faith. I believe in what the Bible says, and I am very happy living a Christian lifestyle, thank you very much. End of discussion.

	06-07-2002 05:33									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 It doesn't matter wether their true or false. I have faith. I believe in what the Bible says, and I am very happy living a Christian lifestyle, thank you very much. End of discussion.

So you don't care if you're right or wrong.
That has a name : fanatic.
The exact same kind of people that crashes planes on building.

PS : AFAIK there is nothing in the Bible that forbid abortion.

	06-07-2002 05:34									#320
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Looking at Zylka's pictures posted, apart from the centre one, those are very late-term pregnancies, under which conditions abortion is not legal except under medical emergencies (where the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother). The middle foetus didn't look very advanced to me at all...

	06-07-2002 05:36									#321
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havent the whole thread, but until someone can think for itself, it isnt human

	06-07-2002 05:37									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln You are welcome to evade reality by the use of semantics all you want. Go for it.

You are welcome to call any reasonning an evasion to reality. Go for it. Not that I think you can provide any reasonning anyway.

I could say that a rock is a human being using your arguments. And when someone would ask me "hu I don't think so, prove me it is" I would tell him "you evade reality with semantic".
Pityful.

	06-07-2002 05:44									#323
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I think CivNation is taking a new approach. All this person has done so far is bring up old religious debates.

But in a much more peaceful way than CivNation ever did.

	06-07-2002 05:46									#324
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Of course you continue to evade the fact that even by your own definition the innocent are being killed. Why does that not bother you? Is the intellectual excersize more important?

	06-07-2002 06:18									#325
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	06-07-2002 06:19									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil So you don't care if you're right or wrong.

You know something. I know from the bottom of my heart that people like you are not happy. My eyes and ears have been a witness to this. You feel like there's something missing in your life. You wish you had something more. How do I know? Take a look at this:

Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.--Romans 14:22-23

Isn't it obvious? A life of sin is a life of misery. Your lives are like soap operas. You live them from one day to the next faced with one problem after another, with no security, with no reassurance that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

quote: That has a name : fanatic. The exact same kind of people that crashes planes on building.

Those kind of people are not religious people. They are extremists. They do not really practice a particular faith, but rather bend the rules of a belief system, and do it in the name of a higher being to make their crimes look justified.

quote: PS : AFAIK there is nothing in the Bible that forbid abortion.

Well, I guess you haven't done enough research, if any at all. Take a look at this:

If men fight, and hurt a woman with a child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.--Exodus 21:12

According to this, those who kill the unborn deserve death.

Before you were born, I sanctified you.--Jeremiah 1:5

God says the unborn are truly sacred.

For you formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from you, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.--Psalm 139:13-16

The words me, my, and I mentioned here truly says that God does see the unborn as human beings.

	06-07-2002 06:22									#327
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hey cloud9...

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	06-07-2002 06:22									#328
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And all of that is based on one assumption.

God exists.

And in the United States at least such an assumption cannot be made.

	06-07-2002 06:24									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Sava hey cloud9...

Not funny Sava. I will NOT decieved by Satan.

	06-07-2002 06:25									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael And all of that is based on one assumption. God exists. And in the United States at least such an assumption cannot be made.

I was merely proving to Akka le vil that the Bible does speak against abortion, as he obviously implied that I look it up for him.