05-07-2002 21:30									#271
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Yes theologians are smart. After all, the majority of my ideas are based on those of Plato.

	05-07-2002 21:31									#272
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People's religious faith, no matter how dogmatic, shouldn't be a qualification for parenthood whatsoever, considering the freedom of religion in this country. Ergo having theologians on the board would only dredge up relgious bigotry. While I may disagree with their views, a fundamentalist can raise a child who is healthy and happy and provided for. What you said sounds suspiciously like an attempt not just to make sure only responsible people have kids, but also only people who agree with your particular values. Not a good thing.

	05-07-2002 21:35									#273
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http://www.prolife.com/FETALDEV.html

While your at it click home page and see the abortion pics...

	05-07-2002 21:41									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 There is no such thing as accidents.

None? So did the midair crash of aeroplanes happen intentionally? Do people intentionally drive their cars off highways, into trees and lamp poles, etc.? Do fires happen because of arson always?

I found this assertion absurd.

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 If you choose to have irresponsible sex that is your choice and you must live with the consequences.

Who are you to judge what is responsible and irresponsible? Besides, that was not my question.

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 It's logical. Think about it. When you don't know your partner well enough to know that they don't have any diseases then you are at risk for contracting an STD.

That's not what I asked. Either you have a source or you do not.

	05-07-2002 21:43									#275
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Boris, their individual values wouldn't come into play. The theologians would simply be there as objective observers. Religion and belief is not going to be a requirement, and it should not. But religion and faith is important in the upbringing of a child. If someone, for instance, believes that Allah will reward them in the afterlife if they martyr themselves, they should not be allowed to raise a child who is going to take on that belief as well. That is just one example. There are many Pro-Lifers who use their faith to justify their acts of violence. The theologians would be there to discuss faith and religion with them, not to discriminate.

	05-07-2002 21:43									#276
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quote: Originally posted by blackice While your at it click home page and see the abortion pics...

So it's not pretty.

Neither are firebombed clinics nor murdered doctors.

	05-07-2002 21:53									#277
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quote: which would be done by proving that (A&B) = C

Because that's the argument you are making.

"since the zygote is human gentically (ova and sperm are not)

and becomes (everyone agrees here) a human being

[...]

thus killing it is immoral "

IMO, neither criteria should have any impact on what warrants the status of a "person." I was wondering why not only you see it this way, but why neither criterion alone warrants the status of a "person."

	05-07-2002 22:02									#278
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obviously

because human genetically obviously does not make something a person

and I equally think it is stupid to have ova and sperm classified as human

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 22:05									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger None? So did the midair crash of aeroplanes happen intentionally? Do people intentionally drive their cars off highways, into trees and lamp poles, etc.? Do fires happen because of arson always? I found this assertion absurd.

Those who have sex should know the risks. Sex doesn't just happen on it's own. People have to make it happen.

quote: Who are you to judge what is responsible and irresponsible?

The pleasures of sex are not worth the risk of an STD. Not knowing your partner well enough to know wether they have any diseases or not IS irresponsible.

quote: That's not what I asked. Either you have a source or you do not.

I shouldn't need a source here, UR. Just think about my logic why don't you. Most transmissions of STD's are a result of people not knowing their partner well enough to know wether they have any diseases or not. 'Nuff said.

	05-07-2002 22:15									#280
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"So it's not pretty.

Neither are firebombed clinics nor murdered doctors."

Let's put this in perspective shall we:

Aborted babies= 50,000,000+

Murdered abortionists= 2 or 3?

	05-07-2002 22:17									#281
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quote: because human genetically obviously does not make something a person

Why not?
It's not obvious to me - at least no more obvious than that zygotes should be classified as people.

quote: and I equally think it is stupid to have ova and sperm classified as human

If you meant as people istead of human, why?

Why are both criteria necessary and sufficient, and why are neither alone sufficient?

	05-07-2002 22:49									#282
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so you are saying Ramo

that a peice of skin in a human??

don't be stupid

and I meant human on the second one

I am shooting down your straw men, and you are being purposefully dense

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 23:14									#283
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Paramecium should be considered people, too. I mean, in a few billion years, they could develop into a race of sentient beings.

	05-07-2002 23:39									#284
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quote: that a peice of skin in a human?? don't be stupid

It's as much as a person as a zygote.

quote: and I meant human on the second one

If you define humanity as having the full DNA of person, I already said a sperm wasn't human. Stop talking about humanity. That's semantics.

However, again, I think a sperm cell is as much a person as a zygote.

quote: you are being purposefully dense

Only because you're not seeing things logically, and are stuck with your philosophical preconceptions. I'm trying to get you to tell my why you think they are justified. You have a bunch of assumptions, and call anything that is contrary to those assumptions "stupid," yet you have given no justification whatsover why you these assumptions must be true.

Again, why are both criteria necessary and sufficient, and why are neither alone sufficient?

	06-07-2002 00:06									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo It's as much as a person as a zygote.

I was trying to develope the zygote as human

since you are not being open minded, instead taking it on faith that the zygote is not human

quote: If you define humanity as having the full DNA of person, I already said a sperm wasn't human. Stop talking about humanity. That's semantics. However, again, I think a sperm cell is as much a person as a zygote.

so you are taking your desired result as given

that is not logical

quote: Only because you're not seeing things logically, and are stuck with your philosophical preconceptions.

you just described yourself

I keep starting to build up a logical basis

and you say that does not matter, the zygote is not human

listen to yourself, you are being the epitome of

quote: I'm trying to get you to tell my why you think they are justified. You have a bunch of assumptions, and call anything that is contrary to those assumptions "stupid," yet you have given no justification whatsover why you these assumptions must be true. Again, why are both criteria necessary and sufficient, and why are neither alone sufficient?

I have been trying to say that

you stop at every point and say that it doesn't matter the zygote isn't human

I have the zygote status as undefined and am trying to show how it developes

you are being illogical and close minded

you are not worthwhile talking to in this matter
goodbye

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 00:38									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller you are being illogical and close minded you are not worthwhile talking to in this matter goodbye Jon Miller

That's exactly what I would do, Jon.

	06-07-2002 00:40									#287
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Regardless of all the controvesary about wether or not an unborn child is human, I think that my argument that abolishing abortion to be used as a means to deter the spread of STD's is a strong one, and thus justifies the abolition of abortion.

See my previous posts in this thread for more information.

	06-07-2002 00:47									#288
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that's the dumbest thing I've heard on this page of the thread cloud9... "abolishing abortion is a deterrent against STD's" ...

	06-07-2002 01:07									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Sava that's the dumbest thing I've heard on this page of the thread cloud9... "abolishing abortion is a deterrent against STD's" ...

Did you even read my previous posts? I'm not going to go through this arguement all over again.

	06-07-2002 01:24									#290
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http://www.swsahs.nsw.gov.au/livtra...s/heartstab.jpg

LOOK AT THE IKKY IKKY HEART SURGERY BAN HEART SURGERY NOW CUZ ITS IKKY BAN BAN BAN!

	06-07-2002 01:31									#291
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yes

but those are people

the heart surgery is helping people

this is killing independent beings at the least (which many claim not to be people or beings worth protecting)

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 01:32									#292
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you know

the pro-abortion side seems to have nothing but strawmen to go against the pro-life arguments

I really thought you all had better arguments than this

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 01:34									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller yes but those are people the heart surgery is helping people this is killing independent beings at the least (which many claim not to be people or beings worth protecting) Jon Miller

You still have to prove that an embryo is an independant person (I'm not talking about the third picture with a near full-term baby, THAT is not the kind of abortion I support).

I'm still waiting ANYONE to disprove any of the arguments I made in my first post.
But it seems that as usual, pro-lifers choose to avoid issues when they simply can't deal with them.

	06-07-2002 01:38									#294
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we have been sidetracked arguing with others

repost them (and note that some points will need developement)

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 01:40									#295
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quote: yes but those are people the heart surgery is helping people this is killing independent beings at the least (which many claim not to be people or beings worth protecting)

The point here is that showing gruesome abortion pictures doesn't actually prove anything. Even if aborted fetuses look like babies, it doesn't prove that they're persons - all that showing pictures achieves is shock effect. Similarly, if I'd show picture about heart surgery to person unaware of what heart surgery is and tell him I'd like to ban people from cutting up other people like this, he's be revulsed and might agree with me. Nothin' but baiting for emotional reaction.

Apt comparison are the slaughterhouse pictures or live cow slaughterings PETA and other animal nuts use. Have one of your regular pro-lifers who thinks PETA is a bunch of loonies taking his or her family to Burger King, have one of PETA's displays outside, and a likely reaction is anger at how those radical nutcases are trying to ruin his family's day with their gruesome display.

	06-07-2002 01:41									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller we have been sidetracked arguing with others repost them (and note that some points will need developement) Jon Miller

Here they are :


Let's see. Why abortion could be considered bad ? Because it would kill a person. Hence we have two possibilities :

1) the embryo is a person.
2) the embryo is not a person.

What define a person ? Some argued that it's the DNA. It's absurd. My skin cells have DNA, it does not make each of them a person. Some people have chromosomic anomalies (3 chromosoms 21) and they are still considered a person, though they do not share the same DNA as most humans. Twins have the same DNA and are still considered two persons.
So what make someone a disctinct person ?

Obviously, it' the mind. A sentient alien should be considered a distinct person as much as a twin.

So it's not ending LIFE which is bad (after all, when I'm cutting my hand, I kill it, and nobody think that I should be punished). What is bad is to destroy a MIND.

Has the embryo a mind ?

Well, for that we need to see WHERE the mind is located. This is very easy with simple observation : there is ample examples of men who lost their arms, their legs, their nose, well ANY part of their body, and stayed the same person.
Though, ANY damage on the brain bring changes on the personnality and mental abilities.
It's also impossible to replace the brain, while prothesis are available for about anything else.
Hence, the mind is located in the brain.

Has the embryo a brain ?
It has, after a while, a nervous system. Though, the brain does not start to appear before the 10-12 th week. After that, the embryo is no more an embryo, but a fetus.

Hence the answer : NO the embryo is not a person. Hence, there is nothing bad in abortion up to the 10th or 12th week, as you don't destroy a mind.

	06-07-2002 01:49									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Here they are : Let's see. Why abortion could be considered bad ? Because it would kill a person. Hence we have two possibilities : 1) the embryo is a person. 2) the embryo is not a person. What define a person ? Some argued that it's the DNA. It's absurd. My skin cells have DNA, it does not make each of them a person. Some people have chromosomic anomalies (3 chromosoms 21) and they are still considered a person, though they do not share the same DNA as most humans. Twins have the same DNA and are still considered two persons. So what make someone a disctinct person ? Obviously, it' the mind. A sentient alien should be considered a distinct person as much as a twin. So it's not ending LIFE which is bad (after all, when I'm cutting my hand, I kill it, and nobody think that I should be punished). What is bad is to destroy a MIND. Has the embryo a mind ? Well, for that we need to see WHERE the mind is located. This is very easy with simple observation : there is ample examples of men who lost their arms, their legs, their nose, well ANY part of their body, and stayed the same person. Though, ANY damage on the brain bring changes on the personnality and mental abilities. It's also impossible to replace the brain, while prothesis are available for about anything else. Hence, the mind is located in the brain. Has the embryo a brain ? It has, after a while, a nervous system. Though, the brain does not start to appear before the 10-12 th week. After that, the embryo is no more an embryo, but a fetus. Hence the answer : NO the embryo is not a person. Hence, there is nothing bad in abortion up to the 10th or 12th week, as you don't destroy a mind.

ahh

see you will at least give a decent argument

(and I would feel a lot better with your requirements for abortion than the current ones, I think the current ones are without a doubtr murder while yours it would be questionable)

I would guess that the completely anti all abortion side would have the requirements to be human as

having human DNA and being a recognizable human in the future

I beleive that there is reason to argue between your position and the anti-abortion position (and it isn't as clear as other positions)

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 01:51									#298
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Akka le Vil

aren't you disturbed by all the murder that is being done?

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 01:52									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller you know the pro-abortion side seems to have nothing but strawmen to go against the pro-life arguments I really thought you all had better arguments than this Jon Miller

You know, Jon. Perhaps we should try a different strategy here. Since the pro-choicers around here are simply not gonna listen to us and keep repeating things over and over and over again when we've already proved that an embryo is human, why don't we stick to my argument that passing anti-abortion laws can actually promote responsible sex and slow the spread of STD's?

edit: Let's discuss the advantages and disadvantages of anti-abortion laws. Let's discuss how the advantages of anti-abortion laws outweigh the disadvantages.

	06-07-2002 01:53									#300
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I guess we shouldn't have seen pictures of Nazi victims either. Too shocking I guess... It is probably better just to keep repeating numbers when someone is killed. Let's see "twenty murders were committed in Detroit last month, oh hum, what's for dinner tonight honey?"