05-07-2002 06:57									#181
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I've got to run so I'll respond later.

	05-07-2002 08:24									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo IMO, almost certainly there exists sentient aliens somewhere in the universe, so no.

well than for the purposes of discussion leave aliens out of this, you are just using that to be difficult

quote: Then don't come up with illogical questions. Just because something is true for all members of a finite subset of a set does not make it true for all members of the set

when did I ever say that?

quote: No. Sperms, ova, and fetuses break this assertion, IMO.

did you even read what I wrote??

what you would be saying by this statement is that you think that Sperm and Ova are not OK to kill now, but are OK to kill later

that is not what you meant

so reread what I wrote (carefully, I know you are bright)

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 09:04									#183
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam As to the egg there is a difference, a fertilized egg will continue to grow and devlope different cell structures, as other cells don't (emphasis on different). Also a fertilized egg has a unique DNA pattern. WHich is different from the mothers and the fathers. Where as the egg has a single gamete of the mothers, and the sperm a single gamete of the fathers. Thus the fusion of the two creates an organism which is FOREIGN to the mother.

Medicine will soon find a way to "trigger" a normal body cell into acting like a feterlised egg. Maybe even within this decade. Currently, they are part way there. Most clones are made by injecting a nucleus into an adult body cell.

As a said, there is no biological difference between body cells and fertilised eggs. Given time, body cells can be grown into human beings.

quote: Originally posted by November Adam A single zygote biologically is a human being. Not conisdered a person (no sentience yet). But still an individual.

So are body cells. Just because they have identical DNA's do not mean they can't be grown into individuals.

Identical twins have identical DNA's.

	05-07-2002 09:16									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu "Men eat meat" isn't inflammatory. Try "Men eat human meat". Or possibly "Atheists go to churches and shoot people" or "Black people riot and loot".

How does that matter? How does semantics affect the syntax?

quote: Originally posted by Stefu Also, since none of us is a clinic bomber, you're arguing with a ghost. Either you are saying something that everyone agrees with or you are trolling and trying to squirm out of it.

When did pointing out a fact become trolling? How is pointing out hypocrisy on the part of anti-abortionists "arguing with a ghost?"

quote: Originally posted by Stefu To play devil's advocate, you could say that by bombing clinics and shooting doctors, they're trying to prevent what they see as murder.

So, by extension of your logic, it is entirely moral to shoot anti-abortionists, seeing how that will prevent murders from happening.

	05-07-2002 09:24									#185
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quote: well than for the purposes of discussion leave aliens out of this, you are just using that to be difficult

Fine. Then I agree that ignoring all possibility of other sentient life, being a "person" implies being human.

quote: when did I ever say that?

By asserting the validity of the preceding assertion.

quote: did you even read what I wrote?? what you would be saying by this statement is that you think that Sperm and Ova are not OK to kill now, but are OK to kill later that is not what you meant

Yes, I misread what you wrote. Surely you must realize that what you wrote is a bit muddled though.

Anyways, my answer is still no. If someone contracts some nasty disease that only causes the person constant pain, and impoverishes the person's relatives, I think euthenasia isn't immoral (provided the person consents - or this person's family if he or she is too incapacitated).

	05-07-2002 09:25									#186
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam In biological terms organisms are always studied in their natural environments.

That's fine, but we aren't talking about studying human zygotes here. We are talking about what they needed to develop.

quote: Originally posted by November Adam A human at its fetal stages natural environment is in its mothers womb (dido with zygotes). Its dependecy on its mother doesn't change that it is a seperate organism.

Assume that it is a seperate organism. Now what? There are zillions of seperate organisms on/in a person's body, and they sure aren't human beings.

I agree with you that the criterion here is sentience.

Without sentience, an embryo isn't more special than your lung, say.

quote: Originally posted by November Adam Consider baking powder and vinegar. Baking powder by itself is inert, like a sperm. Vinegar by itself is inert, as is an ovum. Mix the two you have a reaction which can not be reversed, like the joining of the sperm and ovum, it can't be reversed.

Those aren't quite the same thing. Neither sperms nor eggs are inert: they are alive.

	05-07-2002 09:39									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller currently, everyone who has legal rights is a human genetically so it is worth refering to I am attempting to make it clear Jon Miller

Yes, anybody who has legal rights is a human genetically.

L: legal rights
G: human genome

L -> G

But G doesn't imply L

You should know that.

	05-07-2002 09:50									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Most pro-choice discussion I've seen tends to base itself on smarmy attitude towards pro-lifers and sidestepping the real issue - is fetus a person deserving of same rights as other persons. "Woman's right to choose what happens with her body!" "Abortion ban will lead to back-alley abortions!" "It's not a murder, read the law book!" "Pro-lifers bomb clinics!" "Masturbation is homicide haa haa haa!"

What's the real issue? Morality? Legality? Social problem? Biological definition?

BTW, ever heard of RAA (reducto ad absurdum)?

	05-07-2002 09:53									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yes, anybody who has legal rights is a human genetically. L: legal rights G: human genome L -> G But G doesn't imply L You should know that.

that's what I was saying

I did not say that G -> L

I am attempting to work from ground levels of logic and you and Ramo keep jumping the gun (and Ramo keeps misreading everything)

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 10:04									#190
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I wasn't here when you debated with Ramo before

	05-07-2002 10:04									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo By asserting the validity of the preceding assertion.

huh?

I still don't get you

quote: Yes, I misread what you wrote. Surely you must realize that what you wrote is a bit muddled though. Anyways, my answer is still no. If someone contracts some nasty disease that only causes the person constant pain, and impoverishes the person's relatives, I think euthenasia isn't immoral (provided the person consents - or this person's family if he or she is too incapacitated).

hmm

that route is not open then

OK

will you take C & ~D -> B

where

C = immoral to take life now
D = in pain now
B = immoral to take life in the future
~ = not

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 10:08									#192
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Jon,

Could you present your argument in a comprehensive form?

	05-07-2002 10:10									#193
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I am going go point by point because I don't know which people will have problems with

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 10:28									#194
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quote: that route is not open then OK will you take C & ~D -> B

No. I also don't consider it immoral to kill a person, for instance, if the defense of yourself or others necessitates it.

But let's pretend that I've agreed C->(A&B). What are you getting at, exactly?

quote: I still don't get you

I was referring to the C->B part.

	05-07-2002 10:36									#195
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quote: So, by extension of your logic, it is entirely moral to shoot anti-abortionists, seeing how that will prevent murders from happening.

It's not my logic. It's their logic.

	05-07-2002 10:38									#196
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to prove A and B are the same statements you must prove that A -> B and B -> A

I was just trying to get the easy part down

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 10:41									#197
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Why would you prove A and B are the same statements?

	05-07-2002 10:43									#198
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I thought that was the point

	05-07-2002 10:48									#199
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No, you were supposed to show why:
1. (A & B) -> C
2. ~(A -> C)
3. ~(B -> C)

That was the argument you were making earlier. I was wondering why each assertion is true.

	05-07-2002 10:52									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu It's not my logic. It's their logic.

Okay, fine, their logic.

You have no problem with that otherwise?

	05-07-2002 11:16									#201
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You know, folks. Think of it this way. If abortion was outlawed people would be more responsible, because they will not want to have sex and risk an unwanted pregnancy that can't be undone. In the process, less sex means that the spread of STD's (sexually transmitted diseases) such as HIV/AIDS will be slowed down, saving many lives.

	05-07-2002 11:35									#202
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PERHAPS WE SHOULD JUST RIP THE CHILD OUT OF THE WOMB WHEN WATER BREAKS AND CURB STOMP IT OUT IN THE BACK ALLEY. AFTER ALL IF THE SLUT "I FORGOT/DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE MY BIRTH CONTROL" MOTHER DOESN'T HAVE ROOM FOR A CHILD IN HER LIFE SO BE IT. SHOULD WE REALLY BLAME HER FOR HAVING UNPROTECTED SEX AND 5 PREVIOUS ABORTIONS??? LET'S NOT MAKE A VICTIM OF A BIOLOGICAL NEED TO REPRODUCE THE VILLAIN HERE. GIVING IN TO HER INTENSE CRAVINGS FOR LOVE SPUNK BETWEEN THE LEGS IS MUCH LIKE A HANKERING FOR A CHOCOLATE BAR - WE ALL INDULGE NOW AND AGAIN

TO ABORTIONS

CHEERS!!!

	05-07-2002 11:53									#203
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quote: You have no problem with that otherwise?

With what?

	05-07-2002 12:26									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 You know, folks. Think of it this way. If abortion was outlawed people would be more responsible, because they will not want to have sex and risk an unwanted pregnancy that can't be undone. In the process, less sex means that the spread of STD's (sexually transmitted diseases) such as HIV/AIDS will be slowed down, saving many lives.

Given your previous posts, it is hard to tell if you are joking.

Do you actually think that there were no unwanted pregnancies before abortion was legalized? Do you think that people were not promiscuous before 1973?

	05-07-2002 12:27									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu With what?

Why, you're the person playing the Devil's Advocate. You don't even know what you're arguing for?

	05-07-2002 13:49									#206
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quote: Why, you're the person playing the Devil's Advocate. You don't even know what you're arguing for?

Well, if you insist on being unclear.

	05-07-2002 16:07									#207
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A thread of this kind could last a thousand years. (Fortunately some posting limits do exist!)

As far as I'm concerned, all us MALES (Any females out there?) shouldn't get to say anything about abortion. It's the women who have to give birth to babies. It's their sh*t. And it isn't a particularly fantastic experience to see what it does to your body and your life.

Now I really suspect that none of you would want to give birth to, let's say, the offspring of a person who has abused and raped you!

Last edited by Rehsab on 05-07-2002 at 16:17

	05-07-2002 16:53									#208
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I'm not Male, but I'm not really going to get pregnant.


I've always been one for mass sterilization, and artificial reproduction of humans, thus eliminating the abortion problem.

	05-07-2002 17:55									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Sixchan I'm not Male, but I'm not really going to get pregnant. I've always been one for mass sterilization, and artificial reproduction of humans, thus eliminating the abortion problem.

Well, it's a good thing that this kind of sterilization started with you.
It would be a crime for such a sicko to have the responsability to raise a child.

In fact, it would be a crime for such a sicko to have ANY responsabilities at all.

	05-07-2002 17:56									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 You know, folks. Think of it this way. If abortion was outlawed people would be more responsible, because they will not want to have sex and risk an unwanted pregnancy that can't be undone. In the process, less sex means that the spread of STD's (sexually transmitted diseases) such as HIV/AIDS will be slowed down, saving many lives.

Or how to tell : "ok my argument was pummeled down to the dirt, so I desperatly try to find another ways to defend my backward views".