15-07-2002 04:04									#61
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quote: Originally posted by academia Yes Finbar, go on dreaming!!!! Come on Wallabies!!!! I defy you to come to Argentina, play in a crowded stadium, the entire crowd cheering against you, and defeat THE PUMAS!!!!! Say it aussies!!!! YOU ARE AFRAID!!!! Your sissy players won´t support the pressure!!!!! Don´t you remember that you´ve already lost many times against us

I'm going to forward this post to former Wallaby coach Rod Macqueen. It will bring back nightmares for him.

	15-07-2002 04:07									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Do you play civ or were you referred to the rugby thread by a friend?

Your erstwhile Kiwi colleague Andydog said he had a Bok mate he was going to bring into the loop. I suspect Mickeyj's the man. That, or the planets have been somehow aligned.

	15-07-2002 04:13									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin With Academia it seems every SH major nation is now represented.

Not to mention that rugby minnow that Havak supports.

quote: About the next Saturday match, I think the score will be tighter than Finbar, Caligastia and Andydog think. As far as I can remember most of the NZ-SA games in the Tri-nations have been tight ones though I must admit I don't remember last year scores.

If the conditions are anything like they were in Christchurch on Saturday night, tries will be very hard to come by for both sides. In fact, the weather conditions - unknown at this stage - are going to make calculating the margins (for our betting purposes) a bit of a nightmare.

quote: their S12 teams have not been very good (am I wrong ?).

Their S12 teams really struggled this season. A lot of the top Bok players have headed off to play in Europe.

	15-07-2002 04:20									#64
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Interesting reports out of South Africa this morning. The Boks' Tri-Nations and S12 contracts expire in, I think, 2005. They are making preliminary noises about the possibility of transferring their commitments to the NH competitions. One argument is that they are in the same time zone as the NH countries and their time zone makes SH travel a real burden. The argument seems to overlook the fact that they would have to turn rugby into a summer sport in order to fit in with the NH schedule.

I suspect it's all just an early feint in what will be another typically protracted Tri-Nations and S12 contract negotiation.

	15-07-2002 04:44									#65
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quote: I'm going to forward this post to former Wallaby coach Rod Macqueen. It will bring back nightmares for him.

mmm...mmmmm......mmmmmmm........

I´m having a vision.......

mmmmm......mmmmmm......

10 October....
World Cup 2003....
Beggining of the tournament....

mmmmm........

Australia 22
Argentina 23

	15-07-2002 04:47									#66
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quote: Do you play civ or were you referred to the rugby thread by a friend?

I´m actually playing a couple of PBEM at Civfanatics website

	15-07-2002 04:49									#67
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Interesting reports out of South Africa this morning... they are making preliminary noises about the possibility of transferring their commitments to the NH competitions.

Come on Havak, come back, you have to react !

Though I must admit it would be very interesting, what would you think of a SH tournament called the Bi-Nations.

quote: I suspect it's all just an early feint in what will be another typically protracted Tri-Nations and S12 contract negotiation.

I suspect it's a joke !

	15-07-2002 05:15									#68
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quote: Originally posted by academia mmm...mmmmm......mmmmmmm........ I´m having a vision....... mmmmm......mmmmmm...... 10 October.... World Cup 2003.... Beggining of the tournament.... mmmmm........ Australia 22 Argentina 23

mmm...mmmmm...mmmmmmm........

I'm just recollecting......

The Pumas couldn't even beat the Boks A side a couple of weeks ago!

	15-07-2002 05:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Come on Havak, come back, you have to react !

Havak seems to have disappeared on us, Tamerlin. You're a bit closer than I am - Could you pop across the Channel to Leicester and see if he's all right? Thanks.

quote: I suspect it's a joke !

The only South African rugby joke I know of is Butch James' tackling.

	15-07-2002 05:23									#70
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quote: The Pumas couldn't even beat the Boks A side a couple of weeks ago!

Yes, i remember that game. But let me point out that we played against 16 players (15 Boks A + Referee)
And how many minutes of extra time? 8?
That´s a joke!!! please!!!

If the superpowers behave like that when they are losing a match against a minor nation, how the hell will we improve? We have to make superhuman efforts to beat them!!!

Anyway, i´m not an idiot and i know that you are better than us!!!! YOU ARE THE WORLD CHAMPIONS!!!!

But we (minor countries) only want respect. Fair referees. That´s all. Give us the same chances to win a game.

	15-07-2002 06:01									#71
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quote: Originally posted by academia If the superpowers behave like that when they are losing a match against a minor nation, how the hell will we improve? We have to make superhuman efforts to beat them!!!

I didn't see the Pumas-Boks A match, but I saw some of the Test match. It seems to me, seriously, that the Pumas playing at home are a different proposition to when they play away. It's understandable, too, because your support at home is legendary. The Wallabies - in fact, most teams - say that playing the Pumas at home is a terrifying experience. Part of the problem with the Pumas, it seems to me, is that you don't play enough internationals - particularly away from home. I think there's a very strong case for bringing you into the Tri-Nations, making it a Four Nations tournament. I know it's been talked about, but it's about time something was done about it. I also certainly wouldn't call the Pumas a minor rugby nation. I would apply that term to some of the European outfits - Romania, etc.

quote: Anyway, i´m not an idiot and i know that you are better than us!!!! YOU ARE THE WORLD CHAMPIONS!!!!

Well, currently. After last Saturday night, I'm very glad there won't be any WRC matches in the South Island of NZ at night. Even if the tournament is being played later in the year.

quote: But we (minor countries) only want respect. Fair referees. That´s all. Give us the same chances to win a game.

As I said above, I think it's more a case of playing many more matches - particularly away from home - against strong opposition.

BTW, who is coaching the Pumas at the moment?

	15-07-2002 06:39									#72
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quote: As I said above, I think it's more a case of playing many more matches - particularly away from home - against strong opposition.

I couldn´t agree more. That´s our main problem. We don´t have serious competition in souht america; and USA and Canada play the Pacific Rim Championship. So, what´s left? TriNations? Mmm... that´s gonna be hard.
But as you said it´ll be really tough for the trinations countries to win here (remember SA and NZ last visits. won by 4 points only)

Personally, we´ll love to join that tournament. And economically speaking, it will only give us profits. I don´t know if you saw that 2 games (NZ and SA). But Argentina played in River Plate Stadium (football team. best stadium in our country) and it was crowded. Everybody talking about the match.
And the most important thing, it will help us to gain experience, improve our skills.
YES!!!! We want to join the TriNations!!!!!

quote: BTW, who is coaching the Pumas at the moment?

Loffreda.

quote: I also certainly wouldn't call the Pumas a minor rugby nation. I would apply that term to some of the European outfits - Romania, etc.

In some way I said minor nations because we don´t fit in the "historical" denomitation of the 8 "rugby countries" : TriNations+5Nations (yes, no Italy)

	15-07-2002 07:00									#73
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Ooorahh! A win for the good guys.
Well, a reasonably interesting match methought - in spite of pretty poor conditions and no tries scored. Both sides did make the attempt anyway.
The portion I did manage to catch (neatly placed between strategically-positioned ad breaks ) gave me the impression that both sides were inconvenienced more-or-less equally. I'm a little curious about the gloves though. Do any of the NH matches - sometimes played in the middle of a blizzard by all appearances - involve gloves (or maybe baseball mitts )?
I did think the (lack thereof) of an Australian penalty try quite nicely counterbalanced the ref penalizing the AB's for time-wasting on the Wallaby line a few minutes previous.
Should make for an interesting return match anyway.
Was going to try and get in on the betting thing but finbars mathematics made my head explode (Well, that and my net access being out for a bit - blasted parrots ). Anybody think to check what he did with that decimal point?
Just in case retro-active bets are allowed I'll back the ... hmm, tough one ... um, AB's with, oh, lets say everything.

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia As for the Bledisloe cup, I dont get these two test series. It always seems like the team to win the second game gets the cup, so doesnt that make the first game essentially meaningless?

The bit that I never really understood was how NZ managed to still lose last time when they won at home and drew in Oz. 1-0 in a 2-match series is generally a win for the side that won the match with the result.
That and how many of the BC matches also seem to be other matches as well ...

quote: I think there's a very strong case for bringing you into the Tri-Nations, making it a Four Nations tournament. I know it's been talked about, but it's about time something was done about it.

I like that thought. A case of the more the merrier really. ie: More matches.

	15-07-2002 07:03									#74
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what's rugby? is it related to cheese?

	15-07-2002 07:14									#75
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quote: Originally posted by academia I couldn´t agree more. That´s our main problem. We don´t have serious competition in souht america; and USA and Canada play the Pacific Rim Championship. So, what´s left? TriNations? Mmm... that´s gonna be hard. But as you said it´ll be really tough for the trinations countries to win here (remember SA and NZ last visits. won by 4 points only)

Did you see my earlier post about the Boks heading for the NH? I really can't see it happening, but if it were to ... there's an immediate place in the Tri-Nations for the Pumas.

quote: In some way I said minor nations because we don´t fit in the "historical" denomitation of the 8 "rugby countries" : TriNations+5Nations (yes, no Italy)

I take your point, but I think rugby officialdom - Australia included - applies the term "minor nations" a bit too loosely in their thinking.

	15-07-2002 07:16									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Patashu what's rugby? is it related to cheese?

Only in the sense that it's the perfect game to watch with a glass of fine port and some good cheese.

	15-07-2002 07:30									#77
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon A win for the good guys.

Now that's what I call reducing a wonderfully complex sport to something akin to Rugby League.

quote: Do any of the NH matches - sometimes played in the middle of a blizzard by all appearances - involve gloves (or maybe baseball mitts )?

ravagon - you forget that they're not only climatically-challenged in the NH, but purists. Ergo, rugby was meant to be played in sub-zero temperatures with the ball as tractable as a wet bar of soap.

quote: Was going to try and get in on the betting thing but finbars mathematics made my head explode

Odd that the other Kiwis managed to nut it out. But then, maybe they only pretended to.

quote: Anybody think to check what he did with that decimal point?

On the basis that I'm an Honorary Treasurer - and that I knocked back an offer from Arthur Andersen to audit the books in return for a percentage of Caligastia's win - I resent the inference. Besides, how far's 0.5 Civ Gold going to get me at the Armani Emporium?

quote: I like that thought. A case of the more the merrier really. ie: More matches.

If Italy can make it into the 6 Nations, why can't the Pumas be admitted to our version?

	15-07-2002 07:49									#78
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon The bit that I never really understood was how NZ managed to still lose last time when they won at home and drew in Oz. 1-0 in a 2-match series is generally a win for the side that won the match with the result.

The Bledisloe Cup in 2001? The Wallabies rolled the ABs 2-0, winning at Carisbrook and Sydney. Remember John Eales' famous penalty kick at Carisbrook? And Kefu's try in Sydney? The ABs had to win the Sydney match to take the Tri-Nations after the Wallabies had gone down to the Boks in one match and drew the other in Perth, after the ABs had beaten the Boks in both matches.

quote: That and how many of the BC matches also seem to be other matches as well ...

The often play the BC series within the Tri-Nations series, I assume, because the schedule is too tight to allow for a separate series. Although they have happened independently.

	15-07-2002 08:15									#79
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The Bledisloe Cup in 2001? The Wallabies rolled the ABs 2-0, winning at Carisbrook and Sydney. Remember John Eales' famous penalty kick at Carisbrook? And Kefu's try in Sydney? The ABs had to win the Sydney match to take the Tri-Nations after the Wallabies had gone down to the Boks in one match and drew the other in Perth, after the ABs had beaten the Boks in both matches.

Ok. It might have been the 2000 BC. I may have lost track. I'm sure it did happen at some point though.
*backpedalling frantically*

[PS: That decimal point crack wasn't intended as anything but a joke btw - No offense intended ]

	15-07-2002 08:30									#80
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In 2000, IIRC, the Wallabies beat the ABs in NZ (in Wellington, from memory) and the ABs beat the Wallabies in Sydney. The latter being that match they called one of the greats - the ABs had about 20 on the board before the Wallabies had handled the ball. The Wallabies came steaming back but lost by a handful of points. Anyway, the series score was 1-all, so the BC remained with the holders, who were the Wallabies.

I promise you there's never been a series where the team which has won the series hasn't taken the trophy. A lot of series are drawn - particularly 2-match series - and, in the case of a drawn series, the trophy stays with the holder. Which is an argument against playing the BC series within the Tr-Nations event. A 2-match series is rarely satisfactory. OTOH, where else can you fit a BC series into an already very tight schedule?

	15-07-2002 08:34									#81
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon [PS: That decimal point crack wasn't intended as anything but a joke btw - No offense intended ]

None - apart from that which allows mock outrage - taken! Jeez, abuse is the currency - pun intended! - in this thread.

	15-07-2002 10:39									#82
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I promise you there's never been a series where the team which has won the series hasn't taken the trophy.

Well blah.
I guess that leaves only a few possibilities:-

(a) It wasn't the BC.
(b) It wasn't between Aus & NZ.
(c) It wasn't rugby at all.
(d) ravagons Monday brain chip was fried in the storm last night and he should refrain from further posting at least until Tuesday - at which time his senses may have returned.

Hmmmm ....

	15-07-2002 10:59									#83
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon ... should refrain from further posting at least until ... his senses may have returned.

Mmmmm. None of us have ever countenanced that theory. How do you think we've managed to fill about 125,000 pages over the years with our utter drivel?

	15-07-2002 18:48									#84
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Yes we are purists beaterly fighting against the heretical visions of the SH officials and rules lawyers.

No, I have never seen a player using gloves in a NH game. As far as I know only a few atmospheric conditions can stop a scheduled game : storm (our rules don't allow a match to be played under the threat of lightnings), frozen field (players can injure themselves on the hard ground) and mist (a match has been scheduled again this year in Toulouse as we couldn't see the other side of the field).

Academia : don't worry, we are also used to play against 16 players each time we are facing a Tri-Nations country ( : this one is for you Finbar...).
I don't consider Argentina to be a minor Rugby nation (unless we strictly apply the rule you have previously stated a bit like the definition of what is a barbarian under ancient greek terms).

	15-07-2002 18:53									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Yes we are purists beaterly fighting against the heretical visions of the SH officials and rules lawyers.

Tamerlin - in Havak's absence, you're doing a mighty fine impersonation of him. The NH can rest easy while you have an internet connection.

quote: Academia : don't worry, we are also used to play against 16 players each time we are facing a Tri-Nations country ( : this one is for you Finbar...).

Thanks, Havak.

quote: I don't consider Argentina to be a minor Rugby nation (unless we strictly apply the rule you have previously stated a bit like the definition of what is a barbarian under ancient greek terms).

Edit. Tamerlin - I'm still interested to hear what you read about the SH attempts to change the tackle situation.

	15-07-2002 19:22									#86
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I think next week will be a real case of margin betting. Who wants to put their hand up to calculate the margin? Someone who isn't either a Kiwi or a Bok? Well, we don't have any Boks! So someone who isn't a Kiwi.

You can calculate it this time if you want, or are there any margins in the Sydney morning herald on this one?

quote: Your erstwhile Kiwi colleague Andydog said he had a Bok mate he was going to bring into the loop. I suspect Mickeyj's the man. That, or the planets have been somehow aligned.

I might see if I can get a SA friend of mine to start posting in here too.

	15-07-2002 21:57									#87
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quote: Interesting reports out of South Africa this morning. The Boks' Tri-Nations and S12 contracts expire in, I think, 2005. They are making preliminary noises about the possibility of transferring their commitments to the NH competitions.

When I read about that on Saturday I went into a flat F*&K and all web sites seem to agree. (planet-rugby is good). Thank goodness todays reports deny all rumours about it.

I see Umaga ,Lomu and Norm Maxwell are back in the kiwi squad. Maxwell will make it tough for the SA locks, as Mark Andrews is still out injured but should be back for the SA leg.

quote: As far as I know only a few atmospheric conditions can stop a scheduled game : storm (our rules don't allow a match to be played under the threat of lightnings), frozen field (players can injure themselves on the hard ground) and mist (a match has been scheduled again this year in Toulouse as we couldn't see the other side of the field).

Flooded fields can prevent a game starting due to the risk of drowining (1995 WC semi), but I have no idea what would happen if the field flooded during the game.

quote: The only South African rugby joke I know of is Butch James' tackling.

AND he's back from injury

quote: Do you play civ or were you referred to the rugby thread by a friend?

Both, Andydog's a mate.

	15-07-2002 22:03									#88
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Tamerlin - in Havak's absence, you're doing a mighty fine impersonation of him. The NH can rest easy while you have an internet connection.

I knew you would appreciate Finbar.

quote: Edit. Tamerlin - I'm still interested to hear what you read about the SH attempts to change the tackle situation.

You are right, although the changes are about the scrum, I have to read again the articles in order to sum up the important facts and I will then have some translation to make. I do it as soon as possible.

	15-07-2002 22:07									#89
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quote: Academia : don't worry, we are also used to play against 16 players each time we are facing a Tri-Nations country ( : this one is for you Finbar...).

That´s my point; referees usually favour the most powerful side. At least, i see that in international games.
But it´s normal, it also happens in football, basketball, volleyball ...

	16-07-2002 04:23									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You can calculate it this time if you want, or are there any margins in the Sydney morning herald on this one?

No, they don't do margins. I'll have a crack at calculating a margin. It's hard to know whether to take the weather into account. Another night like last Saturday night and any points start the Boks get - and they would, you'd reckon, have to have a decent start - would make the calculation meaningless. I mean to say, you could hardly call Wellington a balmy tropical paradise at the best of times.

quote: I might see if I can get a SA friend of mine to start posting in here too.

Another Manhattan refugee?