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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
I totally agree with you about the history of our clubs being important. The province idea is often mooted here but my club was formed in 1886 and is fiercely proud of it’s history.
I’m not sure Finbar and Caligastia would agree though – after all the premier competition in their hemisphere and the teams that play in it are a mere seven years old. The S-12 teams, even if they ripped names from existing clubs, are totally artificial constructs right guys? |
Actually, no. The Australian S12 teams - two of them, anyway - have existed for eons. The Waratahs and Reds are just the NSW and Queensland teams. They have as existed - and have competed against each other - as long as rugby has existed in this country. They still play their interstate matches outside the S12 format. The Brumbies, obviously, were created. There's always been a strong Canberra and district comp - it bred Campo, for its sins - and Canberra and district has always supported rugby so that's where the S12 team was located.
The bottom line is that Australia is, via its constitution, a federation of states. That's why we have state teams in every sport.
You're talking about your club system. Our clubs have existed since rugby first started and continue to exist. The only difference between your and our club systems is the size of the comps, which is mainly a matter of population and resources. Whenever there's talk of merger or anything that threatens a local club's history, there's hell to pay.
quote:
It’s tricky – I accept the game must move forward – but the past is important too. And then there is irrational emotion – there are many Tigers fans who would not support a province that included Northampton (our nearest rivals) – that would be like asking a Waratahs fan to cheer on the reds.  |
I can't imagine why anyone over there would seriously suggest a province system. People with too much spare time on their hands, obviously.
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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:20
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quote:
Now, thanks to Andydog's preference for something other than a round figure, I'll just pop out and buy an abacus to calculate the potential winnings. |
Heh heh heh.  We like to keep you on your toes you know Finbar. Mind you account for every decimal place now. 
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No, it was actually a tactical bet. I was hoping everyone else would take the - I think - very generous AB margin. Thus leaving me with the pool to myself. I hadn't counted on Tamerlin. |
I'm sure that Mickeyj will be along shortly to put a wad of gold on the boks. If not, I'll be sure to remind him! (He & I spent most of yesterday playing Civ3 in fact - gotta love these London tube strikes!).
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Don't get confused please - the singing at UK Rugby games is far removed from the tribal aggro crap that spews forth at Soccer games. The singing at rugger can be truly moving as opposed to thoroughly frightening. |
mmm. Well, I've seen the AB's play England, at Twiggers, and the only song that the English fans sung was 'Sweet Chariot'. (To which the Kiwis sang 'you can stick your f*cking chariot up your arse' - charming isn't it!). I haven't seen the AB's play any of the Celt sides though to be fair.
On a different note, I've noticed that quite a few on this thread are half expecting the conditions in Wellington on Saturday to be cold, wet, and generally crappy. O ye of little faith! NZ weather is not always miserable during the winter you know (unlike London's weather). I drove through Leicester once and the hail was bouncing 6 inches off the pavements. Anyway, the forecast for the Cake Tin on Saturday is for fine weather with warm winds, so we can all look forward to less kicking and more running!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
Heh heh heh. We like to keep you on your toes you know Finbar. Mind you account for every decimal place now. |
Obviously an accountant. 
quote:
I'm sure that Mickeyj will be along shortly to put a wad of gold on the boks. If not, I'll be sure to remind him! |
Just what I need. Conspirators manipulating the odds. 
quote:
mmm. Well, I've seen the AB's play England, at Twiggers, and the only song that the English fans sung was 'Sweet Chariot'. (To which the Kiwis sang 'you can stick your f*cking chariot up your arse' - charming isn't it!). |
I thought only Australians were capable of such ... creativity. 
quote:
On a different note, I've noticed that quite a few on this thread are half expecting the conditions in Wellington on Saturday to be cold, wet, and generally crappy. O ye of little faith! NZ weather is not always miserable during the winter you know (unlike London's weather). |
I've been there in winter.
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Anyway, the forecast for the Cake Tin on Saturday is for fine weather with warm winds, so we can all look forward to less kicking and more running! |
I suspect you picked up a Wellington newspaper dated December or January. Anyway, if the weather's anything like you predict, it makes the 12 points even more luxurious for you AB backers, methinks.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Thanks for the background on the organisation of Aussie S12 teams Finbar. I still think there’s some validity in my allegation of them being Artificial constructs however in the fact that the teams don’t have total freedom in the players they have on roster – the ARU gets involved there? |
Sorry to be shooting you down in flames again! It gives me absolutely no pleasure! The ARU has nothing to with the playing rosters of our S12 teams. It's a free (and very competitive) market. Players are contracted by the teams. Players coming off contract are chased by other teams. The S12 teams all have their individual sponsors and backers.
BTW, the very talented 2nd-rower David Giffen is finally recovered from injury. He may well be leaving the Brumbies and heading to the Waratahs.
The ARU is only really involved in the administration of the comp. Oh, and luring RL players across to rugby. Players like Matt Rogers, Wendell Sailor, et al, were contracted to the ARU when they crossed from RL. Beyond that, which S12 team they play for, and how much they earn, is usually decided in a bidding war between the S12 teams. Which is pretty much what's happening now with the latest RL convert, Lote Tuquiri.
It has been different in NZ, I gather. At one point, I know the AB selectors were shuffling players between their S12 teams, all in the cause of making sure various players had the best opportunities to prove themselves (with an eye towards AB selection). I don't know whether that policy still exists.
quote:
Well there was, until quite recently, a strongly motivated pressure group who were pushing for the game here to model itself entirely on S12. That completely ignored the distinct history and nature of the game in our respective countries. It has died off considerably in the last couple of seasons as the European Cup has become the central focus of the game here. |
S12 was created for a couple of specific reasons - to promote the game, and provide a competition level beyond club level but beneath international level. Because, as I've pointed out many times before, our club comp can't - and won't - ever expand to any extent, S12 was a necessary invention. The reasons why it was created here don't exist - and have never existed - over there.
quote:
I should mention here that I am very casual today, and am sat here in a Wallabies polo shirt – yes really. |
Notice how it puts 6" onto your chest? And, if you pray hard enough, elsewhere.
Last edited by finbar on 19-07-2002 at 17:24
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
I must have tarred Australia with the same brush as NZ – I do recall a fuss when the Kiwi Union almost forcibly made Lomu move (away from Blues was it?). I had naturally assumed that if the Kiwis did something Australia would have to do it better? |
Nuh. It was (and might still remain, for all I know) just expediency on the Kiwis' part. I remember Lomu, along with a lot of others, was moved. The Kiwis have always claimed to have been fairly ambivalent about the S12 competition, arguing that they rate their NPC more highly. On that basis, they use the S12 as: (a) a money-making exercise; and (b) a vehicle for manipulation in order to further the national cause. Fair enough, I guess, along as they're competing legitimately. It wouldn't work here. It wouldn't be allowed to happen. There's too much local pride.
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 Excellent news – I rather rate Giffen – good player. In fact after RWC 03 I'd be happy to see my club go in for him to play alongside Kay and Louis Deacon when the big man retires.  |
You might well have your way. If you can afford him. The ARU is anticipating a wholesale exit to the NH after the RWC. I don't know whether he'll go, but he could. He must be in his late 20s now. In fact, the wholesale exit is the main reason the ARU has been snaffling the top RL players. Planning for the future.
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Also anyone who throws a punch that knocks Bobby Skinstad down is fine by me. |
Are you of the view that Skinstad is overrated? If so, you're not the only one from what I can gather.
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Although strangely the European cup is filling that same interim role – the players rate it highly as it gives ‘International’ experience to a lot of players – giving the lads on the fringe of the national setups chance to experience a higher level of rugby. |
That's what I mean - you already have (and have had) formats in place that serve the S12 purpose. OTOH, I suppose I can see the mentality that would still push for a S12-type format over there. It would be led, I'm sure, by the marketing types. Bugger 'em.
quote:
I am fervently praying as I write. |
"Forgive Havak, Father, for he has sinned ... he has envied an Australian ... "
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
btw, when do we find out if Tuqiri joined the Reds? |
Dunno, I havent heard anything.
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18-07-2002 19:35
) no more than ten points in favor of the AB. 
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