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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:20
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quote:
our domestic competition is what it is. It can't expand any more - except in terms of having NSW clubs playing Queensland clubs and calling it, technically, a national comp - because there simply isn't the financial base because there aren't the numbers. |
I find it difficult to accept that the market for union in Australia is saturated and can't grow any more. NZ has only 3.9 million people (with bugger all disposable income), but we still manage to run a successful domestic competition that makes money. I realise that the average Kiwi may be more passionate about rugby than the average Aussie, but there are a lot of you who all love sport, and with a good bit of marketing and enthusiasm at the helm, your domestic competition would go off. As someone has already pointed out on these threads, Union is a game where Aussies can represent their country. Bugger all countries are interested in league, and even less are interested in Aussie rules. There is huge potential for a domestic rugby competition in Australia, but the ARU has always lacked the drive to organise it and market it so it will succeed.
Anyway, it sounds like this argument has been had before. I apologise if we are treading old ground here folks.
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For the sake of my sanity, can we bet only in units of 10? Please? Andydog? |
*Andydog pulls out his mouldy old violin, dusts it off, and starts playing slow, sad music*
Mate I forgot the difficulties that Aussies have with decimal points. And numbers.  Do you have Excel? If so I'll whack a sheet together that will do all the calculating and rounding for you.
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I do it for the tips, which the gimps don't get eh? Andydog! |
Dammit he speaks the truth! How can chicks tip me with that gimp suit obscuring my g-string! 
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
I find it difficult to accept that the market for union in Australia is saturated and can't grow any more. NZ has only 3.9 million people (with bugger all disposable income), but we still manage to run a successful domestic competition that makes money. I realise that the average Kiwi may be more passionate about rugby than the average Aussie, but there are a lot of you who all love sport, and with a good bit of marketing and enthusiasm at the helm, your domestic competition would go off. As someone has already pointed out on these threads, Union is a game where Aussies can represent their country. Bugger all countries are interested in league, and even less are interested in Aussie rules. There is huge potential for a domestic rugby competition in Australia, but the ARU has always lacked the drive to organise it and market it so it will succeed.
Anyway, it sounds like this argument has been had before. I apologise if we are treading old ground here folks. |
It has been had before, but there's no reason not to have it again. But I'll summarise it for the sake of those who have heard it all before.
Population has nothing to do with it. Rugby - in NZ - has next to no opposition as a winter sport. It is - and always has been - a religion. In Australia, the majority of the states have Australian Rules as a winter sport. And AR is more than a preoccupation in those states, it's an obsession. It has been for close to 100 years.
One-off Test and Bledisloe Cup matches have been played in, for example, Melbourne - the HQ of AR - and have drawn massive crowds. They were deliberately played there in order to further the rugby cause. It needs to be realised, though, that Melbourne sporting crowds will turn out in droves to see any quality sporting event. Certainly, the fans leave the games with a better idea and appreciation of rugby, but they go home to AR. The ARU are following up in Melbourne - and the other AR states - with publicity and development, but they're starting from behind scratch. Why do you think Melbourne was one of the first choices for the location for the extra S12 team that didn't happen?
Rugby League relocated a team to Melbourne and it has never attracted much more than the original RL expats it originally attracted. And the Melbourne-based team won an ARL Premiership a couple of years ago!
The market for rugby here isn't saturated. I've never said it was. The bottom line is that recruiting people - outside the traditional rugby/RL states - to rugby - as both players and fans - will be a slow process. The unfortunate thing is that it has taken so long for the process to start. It's only with the advent of professionalism - and the influx of dollars - that rugby could afford to further its cause against Australian Rules, which is a massive, billion dollar enterprise in this country.
I couldn't agree more with you about the reasons why our footballers should be choosing rugby. The education process is ongoing.
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Mate I forgot the difficulties that Aussies have with decimal points. And numbers. Do you have Excel? If so I'll whack a sheet together that will do all the calculating and rounding for you. |
No thanks. I enjoy grizzling!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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Originally posted by Havak
I have to risk saying that this is the category you should put Martin in as well. There is no good reason not to respect him as a player? |
Who? 
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The Ben Tune thing is an internal Aussie issue but I do wish just once the ARU would stick its hand up and say “okay, we messed up, we’ll try better in future” rather than play the innocents all the time. |
They've already doing as you wish. John O'Neill was priceless on television tonight in his consumption of humble pie. The Boks are trying to link the matter to the premature death of Hansie Cronje with some incredibly odd logic - South Africa cleaned up its sporting game, resulting in Cronje's early death, because if he hadn't been thrown out of the game he wouldn't have been in that plane; ergo, the Wallabies should rid itself of its drug cheats, starting with having every player drug tested after Saturday night's match. All, obviously, part of the mind games, but honestly - at some point even the Bok players must be calling "enough!" 
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Oh there is something deliciously amusing about a Bok fan accusing any other team of violent conduct don’t you think? |
I'm still giggling. Oh, and I've wrapped the computer cables and keyboard in plastic.
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My own views on the way the Lions have been mis-treated and disrespected by the southern hemisphere, specifically in Australia last year, are well documented and don’t need recycling. But I will anyway.  |
*finbar fumbles for ear-plugs*
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Caligastia
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Originally posted by finbar
Havak is wrestling with a possible margin for the Wallabies-Boks match. Can we get some input from the independents? That rules you out, Mickeyj. |
I would give the Boks a 15 point start. What does everyone else think?
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You'd love the Australian outback. Exactly the same. Minus Wayne Newton, of course. |
Ive seen a bit of the outback. Ive been to Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne and Tasmania. The outback in aussie isnt really as developed as Vegas...
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
But perhaps the most bizarre I've ever seen from what you report. |
The Cronje stuff is the most bizarre I've come across. I saw the interview with Coach Straeuli when he said it. Looked like someone had primed him to make the connection, he wasn't sure how, so just kept talking until he'd included it all.
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You know I can't even visualise this, it is such a strange outlandish concept. |
He, um, wasn't comfortable.
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Tell me during eating all this humble pie did he at any point suggest the IRB change the testing criteria so that what Tune took would no longer be a problem - now that is easier to visualise! |
Stopped short of that, strangely. His line is basically that it was an administrative f*ck up for which they're eternally sorry. Beyond that, he's pointing out that Tune was the innocent victim of official incompetence. Which, basically, he was. This is what happened -
Tune had a serious knee infection. His surgeon prescribed him a drug that aids the work of the antibiotic. It's perfectly legal in League and Australian Rules for some reason, apparently, but not in rugby. It's not performance enhancing, but it can be used as a masking agent for steroids. Anyway, the surgeon notified the QRU that the drug was administered. The QRU notified the Australian Drug Testing Authority (or whatever it's called). Prior to the (whatever it's called) reply to the QRU, Tune played 2 matches for Queensland. The (whatever it's called) got back to the QRU and told them the drug was on the rugy banned list. Tune stood down from further matches till the drug left his system.
The point is, the QRU should have known in the first place that the drug was on the banned list. That's the first screw up. It's even arguable that the surgeon should have checked in the first place. The next - and most damning - screw up happened when the ARU was informed of what had happened and they didn't make it public.
Their argument was that they didn't want to taint Tune's good name via an administrative cockup. And what happens? They make the whole thing a million times worse.
Penisheads.
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*note to self. Do not react so prematurely to criticism of the Lions* |
And deprive us of our mirth quota on a dull day?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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Originally posted by Caligastia
I would give the Boks a 15 point start. What does everyone else think? |
Interesting. It says, obviously, that the Boks will do better than they did against the Kiwis. I suppose it depends how one reads the result - by which I mean the margin - of last Saturday night. I didn't see the whole match, so I can't express an informed opinion. Some have suggested that, while the Kiwis were obviously superior, the scoreline wasn't truly representative. That the Kiwis did most of the damage either side of halftime. Is this remotely true? If so, your 15 points is probably fair enough.
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Ive seen a bit of the outback. Ive been to Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne and Tasmania. The outback in aussie isnt really as developed as Vegas... |
You're right. For a number of reasons - lack of population, a preference for the coast, and a good deal of the outback is now, rightly, under the control of its first inhabitants.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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Well you know the stats were very interesting – using exactly the same process as I have used for the previous two games it turns out the Boks should receive only a seven point start.
The problem is the Boks historically do much better against Australia than New Zealand, just like they did last year.
I doubt that kind of spread will wash with you guys however? I have to say I do expect the Boks to do much better against Australia than they did against NZ (if only because eveyone wants to turn over the Aussies?).
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he wasn't sure how, so just kept talking until he'd included it all. |
I do feel sorry for rugby coaches, who now have to be media savvy but largely lack the aptitude. This is the strangest I’ve heard in a while. Is the argument that Ben Tune should retire, become a financial director for a major company, hop on a plane and die?
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Beyond that, he's pointing out that Tune was the innocent victim of official incompetence |
Absolutely. I don’t think Tune needs to be pilloried here. But as you say not handled well by the authorities of the game.
O’Neill is a strange bloke. Domestically he is a real asset for you – he will fight for Union to his last breath. Internationally he tends to lack the grace needed for inter-union diplomacy and tends to be a bit of a Healey shall we say?
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And deprive us of our mirth quota on a dull day? |
I know my role.
You have still read the side perpetrating the violence wrong on the whole Lions tour though. You miss the simple logic that the Lions had nothing to gain from that kind of game plan whilst the Wallabies had everything to gain from it. I can’t see the problem, having won the series by crippling key players (Hill, Healey, Wilkinson), with the Aussies admitting their game plan worked and quitting with this “we are always innocent, the Lions were evil” crap?
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Clearly, Havak would miss me more than I would miss him |
Whilst I’m not entirely sure what Tamerlin meant I would miss Finbar yes – he is that rare Aussie that is a true fan of the game rather than just the Wallabies. He (probably) won’t immediately want to kill me for the above paragraph even. He argues his points eloquently and with facts, he doesn’t get mad if you dare to suggest the current Australian side are not the absolute best ever in the world (that’s rare enough, believe me) and he doesn’t even mind me pointing out things like the fact that whilst England haven’t finished lower than second in the six nations for a decade the Aussies were actually strong enough to hold up the first two Tri-nations tables all on their own.
Okay so now I had better find a deep hole to hide in for a while.
Oh by the way Finbar, I know you are flying the flag of your spiritual home Italia but has anyone told you that you are in fact flying the club colours of my beloved Tigers by so doing?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Interesting. It says, obviously, that the Boks will do better than they did against the Kiwis. I suppose it depends how one reads the result - by which I mean the margin - of last Saturday night. I didn't see the whole match, so I can't express an informed opinion. Some have suggested that, while the Kiwis were obviously superior, the scoreline wasn't truly representative. That the Kiwis did most of the damage either side of halftime. Is this remotely true? If so, your 15 points is probably fair enough. |
The ABs did most of the damage in the second half. In the beginning of the first the Boks took the lead for a while, then the scores leveled, and then the ABs scored before half time to make it NZ-21 SA-13. In the second half NZ scored three more tries, and the Boks got a fluke try as a result of some sloppy play by Umaga.
I think the scoreline is pretty representative, in fact if anyone had an inflated score from that game it was the Boks. I only say that because their second try was a lucky one.
The reason I think the Boks will do better this weekend is because 1 - they will be more determined 2 - they have had a bit more time to adjust to the general time zone of the region, and 3 - there were some moments of sheer brilliance, especially the first try by Werner Greeff. They showed a lot of potential, and hopefully have learned a lot from the NZ match.
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You're right. For a number of reasons - lack of population, a preference for the coast, and a good deal of the outback is now, rightly, under the control of its first inhabitants. |
From what I saw, the abos are not integrated into white aussie society at all. Is it different in northern Oz? Do many of the abos live as they did before colonisation?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Well you know the stats were very interesting – using exactly the same process as I have used for the previous two games it turns out the Boks should receive only a seven point start.
The problem is the Boks historically do much better against Australia than New Zealand, just like they did last year. |
Strange, one of the Kiwis was arguing prior to last week that the Boks always crank up against them. I agree with you. We always have trouble with them, especially over there. In fact, last year, we drew in Perth and lost over there.
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I doubt that kind of spread will wash with you guys however? I have to say I do expect the Boks to do much better against Australia than they did against NZ (if only because eveyone wants to turn over the Aussies?). |
I think 7 is slim. I mean, I'd love to take it, but so would everyone. Even those with their pathological hatreds of the Wallabies.
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Is the argument that Ben Tune should retire, become a financial director for a major company, hop on a plane and die? |
That's the logical conclusion to an argument that clearly wasn't thought through. It really does their brains trust little credit.
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O’Neill is a strange bloke. Domestically he is a real asset for you – he will fight for Union to his last breath. Internationally he tends to lack the grace needed for inter-union diplomacy and tends to be a bit of a Healey shall we say? |
He has enemies here. As you could well understand.
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You have still read the side perpetrating the violence wrong on the whole Lions tour though. You miss the simple logic that the Lions had nothing to gain from that kind of game plan whilst the Wallabies had everything to gain from it. I can’t see the problem, having won the series by crippling key players (Hill, Healey, Wilkinson), with the Aussies admitting their game plan worked and quitting with this “we are always innocent, the Lions were evil” crap? |
Mmmm. My specs fogged up during that paragraph.Couldn't read a word. Gee, they suddenly became crystal clear again as soon as I approached this next paragraph ...
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Whilst I’m not entirely sure what Tamerlin meant |
He meant we're - in the Australian vernacular - Darby & Joan. An inseparable nattering pair. Joined at the hip. And so on.
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I would miss Finbar yes – he is that rare Aussie that is a true fan of the game rather than just the Wallabies. |
Gee, I'm misting over ...
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He (probably) won’t immediately want to kill me for the above paragraph even. |
Luckily, as reported above, some Act Of God prevented me reading the para to which you refer.
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He argues his points eloquently and with facts, he doesn’t get mad if you dare to suggest the current Australian side are not the absolute best ever in the world (that’s rare enough, believe me) and he doesn’t even mind me pointing out things like the fact that whilst England haven’t finished lower than second in the six nations for a decade the Aussies were actually strong enough to hold up the first two Tri-nations tables all on their own. |
Who in their right mind argues against indisputable fact? Like, for example, that a certain Pom rugby team isn't fit to don the Italian tricolour!  Oops! Pre-empting things there just a bit ...
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Okay so now I had better find a deep hole to hide in for a while. |
Leave that Italian tricolour scarf before you go down there!
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Oh by the way Finbar, I know you are flying the flag of your spiritual home Italia but has anyone told you that you are in fact flying the club colours of my beloved Tigers by so doing? |
My outrage is ... is ... is ... indescrivibile!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
The reason I think the Boks will do better this weekend is because 1 - they will be more determined 2 - they have had a bit more time to adjust to the general time zone of the region, and 3 - there were some moments of sheer brilliance, especially the first try by Werner Greeff. They showed a lot of potential, and hopefully have learned a lot from the NZ match. |
Thanks for the summation. So you still reckon 15 points?
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From what I saw, the abos are not integrated into white aussie society at all. Is it different in northern Oz? Do many of the abos live as they did before colonisation? |
Depends who you're talking about. The remaining full-blood aborigines live mostly in settlements on their lands. Unfortunately, they're being just about destroyed by everything we brought to the country - most of all, booze. There's a larger number that has inter-married. They suffer the same problems. More so, in fact, because a lot of them have completely lost their roots. They're stranded in a sort of hellish, nightmarish limbo. Part of the problem is that, just beneath the surface, this is an incredibly racist country. (The further north you go, the more racist the average Australian) So, tragically, there's probably never going to be a solution. Eventually, the full-blood aborigines will cease to exist altogether, and, ultimately, through inter-marriage, there will be next to nothing left of them at all.
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23-07-2002 11:42
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