17-07-2002 18:33									#121
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'd like to know if seeing some BIG dude in a toga rip up a mountain, and bury a hundred-headed fire-breathing giant with it, would make people (especially Christians) believe in Zeus.

Seas have been known to retreat (e.g. before a tsunami). It's a much more common event than the appearance of a toga-wearing mountain-hurler.

	17-07-2002 18:39									#122
	Remove this text

Horse : Can you turn it into wine ? Or beer ?

	17-07-2002 18:42									#123
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

beware, Horse... god is watching you...

	17-07-2002 18:42									#124
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless I'd like to know if seeing some BIG dude in a toga rip up a mountain, and bury a hundred-headed fire-breathing giant with it, would make people (especially Christians) believe in Zeus.

Sure I could go for that

	17-07-2002 18:50									#125
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless I'd like to know if seeing some BIG dude in a toga rip up a mountain, and bury a hundred-headed fire-breathing giant with it, would make people (especially Christians) believe in Zeus.

Again, I would think that Hollywood went too far.

	17-07-2002 18:58									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

CyberShy,

Stop regurgitating the same old crap. Evolution has been observed. See Observed Instances of Speciation.

It doesn't matter one way or other that we can't explain some of the things. It's like asking how gravity works. We aren't sure, but that doesn't mean there's no gravity.

	17-07-2002 19:04									#127
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Why don't they find a way to cure cancer / aids, to stop food starvation in Africa.

How are they supposed to do that effectively if they're not allowed to believe in evolutionary biology?


Assistant: "Sir, the virus has mutated. It is no longer affected by the experimental vaccine."

Researcher: "Heretic! Everybody knows that evolution is a lie!"


Assistant: "Sir, we've created a new hybrid grain plant that is highly resistant to crop failure."

Researcher: "Heretic! Everybody knows that evolution is a lie!"

	17-07-2002 19:07									#128
	Got spare money?

Urban Ranger, don't mix up gravity with the evolution from reptiles into mamals.

We actually can observe gravity but we didn't and will never observe the evolution from reptiles into mamals.

And yes, indeed I'm regurgitating old crap.
But so do you. That's why I said: for every argument there is a counter argument.

Science can't define things that can't be observed directly or indirectly.

	17-07-2002 19:12									#129
	Support Apolyton

I've never quite understood why people who believe in God also refuse to believe in evolution. Like the two are mutually exclusive or something.
It kind of reminds me of the uproar when scientists proved that the Earth moved around the sun, and not the other way around.

Is it not possible that God created the universe, and programmed it to change and adapt by itself?

God may or may not exist (I believe it does), but evolution is proven.

	17-07-2002 19:14									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: We actually can observe gravity but we didn't and will never observe the evolution from reptiles into mamals.

because this never happened
they evolved seperately, and birds evolved from reptiles...well, that is the theory

	17-07-2002 19:17									#131
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: How are they supposed to do that effectively if they're not allowed to believe in evolutionary biology?

:|
First I did not say they're not allowed to believe in evolutionairy biology.
2nd did I say they should cease focussing on those things that are not relevant. Curing cancer means of course that you have to know what the origins of cancer are.

I don't think you need to understand the evolution from a fish to a reptile or the cause for the big bang.

quote: Is it not possible that God created the universe, and programmed it to change and adapt by itself?

I believe God created the universe at a quiet adult stage, but indeed from that point on things lived and mutated.

I simply do not believe that mutation results in new organs and much new functionalities though.
Of course now and than micro evolution will work, but not in such a big scale.

It's against any law of logic.

quote: they evolved seperately, and birds evolved from reptiles...well, that is the theory

wait 20 years and the scientists will claim something different anyway.

	17-07-2002 19:19									#132
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Urban Ranger, don't mix up gravity with the evolution from reptiles into mamals. We actually can observe gravity but we didn't and will never observe the evolution from reptiles into mamals. And yes, indeed I'm regurgitating old crap. But so do you. That's why I said: for every argument there is a counter argument. Science can't define things that can't be observed directly or indirectly.

But the evolution of reptiles into mammals HAS been "observed indirectly", in the fossil record.

First there are just reptiles in the lower layers, then you get therapsids (mammal-like reptiles) which get progressively more mammal-like, then you get mammals.

There IS no creationist counter-argument to this. If Genesis was true, there would be no separation in the fossil record, and no "transitional forms" like therapsids.

But these things exist. Therefore Genesis is bunk.

	17-07-2002 19:22									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Urban Ranger, don't mix up gravity with the evolution from reptiles into mamals.

I'm not mixing them up.

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy We actually can observe gravity but we didn't and will never observe the evolution from reptiles into mamals.

Of course not. The evolution of mammals occured in the past. Of course we will never observe it. There is always the fossil record.

How would you explain the existence of transitional forms? Creationism cannot do it.

	17-07-2002 19:24									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: wait 20 years and the scientists will claim something different anyway.

based on new evidence off course, and only the birds from reptiles was theory, there was sufficient evidence found that mammals and reptiles did evolve seperately.

quote: I simply do not believe that mutation results in new organs and much new functionalities though. Of course now and than micro evolution will work, but not in such a big scale. It's against any law of logic.

why would it be against logic?

but back to this:

quote: They have also been proven wrong on very much things before as well!

Yes, they have been proven wrong, but that was never done by religion, but by other scientist.
Scientist have always corrected things that were taken for granted by religion, for example "earth is the center of the universe" But religion has never corrected science, except in a scientific way maybe.

	17-07-2002 19:26									#135
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy It's against any law of logic.

How can the dismissal of a false dichotomy be illogical? I always thought that false dichotomies were, well, false.

quote: wait 20 years and the scientists will claim something different anyway.

Yes, better to stick to the Fundie claims, since they never ever change regardless of how much evidence contradicts them.

	17-07-2002 19:28									#136
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I can see what the next response will be.

Mammals did not evolve from modern reptiles. They did, however, evolve from the same "reptilian" ancestors as modern reptiles (and birds) did.

	17-07-2002 19:32									#137
	Tired of ads?

By the way, why do we still bother?

	17-07-2002 19:33									#138
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

because we have nothing better to do

	17-07-2002 19:35									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If we just ignored the religious trollers then they might go away, but they might start a circle jerk instead. I'd rather avoid the latter possibility.

	17-07-2002 19:40									#140
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Because you still want to win this debate which would not be an issue if you would have feel convinient with the answers you found so far.

And for me, it's because I want to spread the good news. I have a gospel to tell, I believe something bad will happen to you guys if you won't accept Jesus to be punished for your sins.

In fact I continue because I care about you guys.
Why do you guys continue?

Show me some pictures of these fossils. I'm curious.

	17-07-2002 19:41									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Show me some pictures of these fossils. I'm curious.

sheesh, go watch the Discovery Channel

	17-07-2002 19:42									#142
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hey Cyber,

You seem to pour scorn on the scientific theory of how the universe was created...

Well what about God, how was he created?

What did he do, pull himself from out of his own arse!!?

You are seriously out of your depth my Hindu friend...

The 'King' has already shot himself in the foot - Christianity isn't even the largest religion in the World, what arrogance to assume that the followers of Christianity are 'right' and all the rest of the World's religions are wrong...

I bet there are plenty of opposite numbers in Islam that think exactly the same thing about Christianity as you do about Islam...

You are an extremist nutcase (merely a logical conclusion drawn from your posts), can I call you CivNation?

	17-07-2002 19:47									#143
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Because you still want to win this debate which would not be an issue if you would have feel convinient with the answers you found so far.

I think loin provided a good answer.

Not that we haven't won the debate. For that matter, there was never one to begin with.

At any rate, you seem to have ignored my question. How does Creationism explain transitional fossils?

You also seem to be unable to grasp the possibility that many Christians also embrace evolution.

	17-07-2002 19:49									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy And for me, it's because I want to spread the good news. I have a gospel to tell, I believe something bad will happen to you guys if you won't accept Jesus to be punished for your sins.

99 times out of 100, somebody who is trying to save my soul doesn't really care at all about me--they're just trying to earn a carrot for their "good works." Excuse us if we make it difficult for you to earn your commission.

	17-07-2002 19:51									#145
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

MOBIUS, go read the readme file of the new patch. Those kinds of arguments are really pathatic. Now go and make personal insults to your relatives.

For the mature atheists:
Some quotes on the fossil record:

"...innumerable transitional forms must have existed but why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? ...why is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain, and this perhaps is the greatest objection which can be urged against my theory". Origin of the Species.

David M. Raup, U. Chicago; Ch. F. Mus. of N. H., "The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be. Darwin was completely aware of this. He was embarrassed by the fossil record because it didn't look the way he predicted it would.... Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. ....ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as the result of more detailed information." F.M.O.N.H.B., Vol.50, p.35

Niles Eldridge, Amer. Mus. N. H., "He [Darwin] prophesied that future generations of paleontologists would fill in these gaps by diligent search.... One hundred and twenty years of paleontological research later, it has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin's predictions. Nor is the problem a miserably poor record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction was wrong." The Myths of Human Evolution, p.45-46

quote: sheesh, go watch the Discovery Channel

I'm sorry, I forgot that I should behave as arrogant as you guys to keep this debate going.
I'll rephrase:

The existance of these fossils is a fake and you guys can't prove it by showing me a picture here.

uh, yeah...... I prefer the normal way, can you show me pictures of the fossils, please? thanks! (you can answer as arrogant as you want of course, since it would make you look silly if you would take your debate partner serious )

Some more quotes from scientists on fossils:

PALEONTOLOGY DOES NOT PROVE EVOLUTION, D.B. Kitts, U.of OK, "The claim is made that paleontology provides a direct way to get at the major events of organic history and that, furthermore, it provides a means of testing evolutionary theories. ...the paleontologist can provide knowledge that cannot be provided by biological principles alone. But he cannot provide us with evolution.", Evolution, Vol.28, p.466

DON'T USE THE FOSSILS, Mark Ridley, Oxford, "...a lot of people just do not know what evidence the theory of evolution stands upon. They think that the main evidence is the gradual descent of one species from another in the fossil record. ...In any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favour of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation." New Scientist, June, 1981, p.831

FOSSILS INDICATE CREATION! E.J.H. Cornor, Cambridge "Much evidence can be adduced in favor of the Theory of Evolution from Biology, Biogeography, and Paleontology, but I still think that to the unprejudiced the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." CONTEMPORARY BOTANICAL THOUGHT, p.61

I most like Ridley's quote in the New Scientist:
"In any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favour of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation."

You guys are 'real evolutionists'?
In that case you should read the New Scientist more carefull from now on

Your 'priests' seem to advise you to not trow in the fossil record

CyberShy

	17-07-2002 19:53									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You show me a picture of God and i'll convert to Christianity immediately

	17-07-2002 19:54									#147
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Rasslin has GOT to be trolling. Nobody's THAT stupid. Well, maybe, but given 'poly's large pool of trolls, I tend to think this was one. Accordingly: 7/10, for number responses and amusement value.

-Arrian

	17-07-2002 19:54									#148
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: You also seem to be unable to grasp the possibility that many Christians also embrace evolution.

I can't help that.
Like I can't help it that there are christian fundamentalists.

Though I don't really care about the first group, since I think they do not harm anybody. I wish I could do something about the 2nd group though.

I did reply to the fossil thing.

quote: 99 times out of 100, somebody who is trying to save my soul doesn't really care at all about me--they're just trying to earn a carrot for their "good works." Excuse us if we make it difficult for you to earn your commission.

There's no commission for me to earn.
It's more like you can't understand that people care about other people, imagine what christianity does to people if they start to care about other people.

	17-07-2002 20:00									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: You show me a picture of God and i'll convert to Christianity immediately

look into the mirror, you ARE a picture of God.

	17-07-2002 20:02									#150
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy It's more like you can't understand that people care about other people, imagine what christianity does to people if they start to care about other people.

On the contrary, you can't seem to understand that living a good life has nothing to do with believing or failing to believe in God. God provides a carrot-and-stick moral code, which ain't moral at all--taking the moral high ground with a carrot-and-stick morality is laughable and pathetic at the very least. That's what gets me about you people: the best reason you can come up with for why I should believe is (to paraphrase) because "I'll get a spanking if I don't."

quote: look into the mirror, you ARE a picture of God.

I look nothing like Odin! For one thing, I've got two eyes, and Odin only has one.