03-08-2002 07:54									#91
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 that's very good asher. now you are infact addressing the issue at hand. it would happen sooner or later

The issue of this thread is global peer pressure, not about the reasons for the death penalty.

Markos seems to think the US should change its domestic policies because countries like Turkey are doing so.

Markos is living in a dream world.

	03-08-2002 07:56									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's right, it's showing that the US doesn't give a damn what Turkey does.

i seem to recall the US asking for Turkey's help against Iraq...

	03-08-2002 07:58									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The issue of this thread is global peer pressure, not about the reasons for the death penalty. Markos seems to think the US should change its domestic policies because countries like Turkey are doing so. Markos is living in a dream world.

nah i think the point is that if countries with bad human rights records and so on like turkey abolish the death penalty then the US should too.

as to wether the US cares or not, i think THIS is oversimplified.

the US will care when the penalties for not caring will be larger. (like in the case of turkey) or when its population wises up.


for the time being it's just a question of ethics.

since countries like turkey do it then how come the US doesnt.

get it Mulder?

	03-08-2002 07:58									#94
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i seem to recall the US asking for Turkey's help against Iraq...

The US whores itself out to any foreign political support it can get, Marky, you know that.

Anything to give the illusion that it's the "World" fighting these wars, not the US.

	03-08-2002 08:00									#95
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 nah i think the point is that if countries with bad human rights records and so on like turkey abolish the death penalty then the US should too.

Turkey did it to get into the EU, not because they truly believe in the reasoning behind it.

The US doesn't need to get into the EU, so why should it follow Turkey's lead?

quote: since countries like turkey do it then how come the US doesnt.

Because the US doesn't need to be a "good little boy" and be accepted into the EU...

	03-08-2002 08:02									#96
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paiktis, i doubt he'll understand it even now....

asher, so the US doesnt really need those bases in Turkey....
so the US will forget a $5bil debt just for an "ilusion"...

	03-08-2002 08:03									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Turkey did it to get into the EU, not because they truly believe in the reasoning behind it.

Agreed.

quote: The US doesn't need to get into the EU, so why should it follow Turkey's lead?

There are other kinds of pressures that can be applied to a country other than to enter the EU. The best is of course for the country's own population to change for itself.

quote: Because the US doesn't need to be a "good little boy" and be accepted into the EU...

see above.

	03-08-2002 08:03									#98
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG asher, so the US doesnt really need those bases in Turkey....

That's actually correct.

It's handy to have them but it's not necessary.

quote: so the US will forget a $5bil debt just for an "ilusion"...

Are you saying that Turkey is actually going to pay that debt back anytime soon?

	03-08-2002 08:04									#99
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quote: not because they truly believe in the reasoning behind it

how come there are people on death row but no executions since 1984?

	03-08-2002 08:05									#100
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: not because they truly believe in the reasoning behind it how come there are people on death row but no executions since 1984?

No idea, I don't live in Turkey.

So why are there people on death row, Mark?

	03-08-2002 08:05									#101
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quote: Are you saying that Turkey is actually going to pay that debt back anytime soon?

so you are in favor of giving away all the third-world countries debt?

	03-08-2002 08:06									#102
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: Are you saying that Turkey is actually going to pay that debt back anytime soon? so you are in favor of giving away all the third-world countries debt?

I think realistically it should be accepted that they're not going to see the vast majority of that money back.

	03-08-2002 08:06									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's actually correct. It's handy to have them but it's not necessary.

close to necessairy. could mean the success or not of a mission in iraq. or how many americans will die.

quote: Are you saying that Turkey is actually going to pay that debt back anytime soon?

yes. soon is relative in international financing.

	03-08-2002 08:08									#104
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quote: No idea, I don't live in Turkey.

could it be perhaps cause they dont want to execute them???

quote: So why are there people on death row, Mark?

cause their law was saying that the punishment for some crimes was the death penalty???

amazing truths revealed today....

	03-08-2002 08:10									#105
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG could it be perhaps cause they dont want to execute them??? cause their law was saying that the punishment for some crimes was the death penalty??? amazing truths revealed today....

So what you're saying is Turkey doesn't want the death penalty. That's great. They're a country for all of us to model ourselves after.

Now get on to the point about why the US should care...

	03-08-2002 08:13									#106
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quote: Now get on to the point about why the US should care...

read my previous comments on selfishness, arrogance, error and destruction

	03-08-2002 08:14									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Now get on to the point about why the US should care...

1. because if countries with such dire human rights violations records do it, the US which has not so dire violations should do it too or it looks even more bad

2. because one more country abolishes the death penalty and it leaves the US along with countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia having the death penalty in the world.


would that byitself change the DP in the US? no but its a small step to that direction.

	03-08-2002 08:14									#108
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG read my previous comments on selfishness, arrogance, error and destruction

You were being serious with that comment?

I thought you were doing a bad Yoda impersonation for a joke, considering that the comment was baseless and formulated after a famous Yoda quote.

	03-08-2002 08:16									#109
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 1. because if countries with such dire human rights violations records do it, the US which has not so dire violations should do it too or it looks even more bad 2. because one more country abolishes the death penalty and it leaves the US along with countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia having the death penalty in the world. would that byitself change the DP in the US? no but its a small step to that direction.

At the risk of being trolled by the same people insisting I'm equating the importance of the two:

All other countries use metric, and the US has stubbornly stuck to the English system despite the flaws.

Why do you think this will change the situation in the US, at all?

It should be quite obvious that the US doesn't care if it stands alone in the international community.

	03-08-2002 08:17									#110
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i just left for a moment the whole space of 100% serious comments to paiktis

	03-08-2002 08:18									#111
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quote: At the risk of being trolled by the same people insisting I'm equating the importance of the two: All other countries use metric, and the US has stubbornly stuck to the English system despite the flaws. Why do you think this will change the situation in the US, at all? It should be quite obvious that the US doesn't care if it stands alone in the international community.

this is a very stupid comment asher and you know it


if this was the case, iraq would have been bombed by now. the US needs the world's consent to do what it does. (one example: it needs the air port bases in turkey )


the DP penalty will not of course influence the bombing or not of iraq but the US does care what the international community thinks of course.

	03-08-2002 08:19									#112
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 1. because if countries with such dire human rights violations records do it, the US which has not so dire violations should do it too or it looks even more bad would that byitself change the DP in the US? no but its a small step to that direction.

So the other countries that have dire human rights violation get a do-over because they abolished the death penalty?

Pure BS.

You do realize, that if people in the US didn't murder other people there would be no need for the DP, right?

Instead of worrying about the death penalty, we should and do worry about the murder rate in this country.

	03-08-2002 08:19									#113
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quote: It should be quite obvious that the US doesn't care if it stands alone in the international community.

do you consider that as logical, as helpfull for the future of the US?

	03-08-2002 08:20									#114
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I would jump in but Asher seems to be handling both MarkG & paiktis22 more than adequately.

	03-08-2002 08:20									#115
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 this is a very stupid comment asher and you know it if this was the case, iraq would have been bombed by now. the US needs the world's consent to do what it does.

What are you talking about?
The US isn't bombing Iraq right now because the last thing it needs is the UN on their case for being an aggressor without provocation in a war.

The situation isn't remotely comparable with domestic politics.

quote: the DP penalty will not of course influence the bombing or not of iraq but the US does care what the international community thinks of course.

No, the US doesn't care what the international community thinks.
The US does care if the international community teams up against it in an act of war or trade restrictions, which is a possibility when you invade a country like Iraq without provocation or support for it.

Not related to domestic politics. Try again...

	03-08-2002 08:21									#116
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quote: Instead of worrying about the death penalty, we should and do worry about the murder rate in this country

the death penalty IS part of the murder rate...

	03-08-2002 08:21									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski So the other countries that have dire human rights violation get a do-over because they abolished the death penalty?

of course not. it's just makes you look bad.

quote: You do realize, that if people in the US didn't murder other people there would be no need for the DP, right?

people kill people in other countries too.

quote: Instead of worrying about the death penalty, we should and do worry about the murder rate in this country.

maybe both.

	03-08-2002 08:22									#118
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG do you consider that as logical, as helpfull for the future of the US?

I don't consider it logical, but it's not a "logical or illogical" situation.

I don't think it's proper in all cases for all countries to conform to what people are doing around them. It's dangerous.

Countries should be able to think for themselves.

This is starting to remind me of High School, and Markos is one of those people shouting "CONFORM OR DIE".

	03-08-2002 08:23									#119
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quote: The US isn't bombing Iraq right now because the last thing it needs is the UN on their case for being an aggressor without provocation in a war.

and since we dont see the possibility of Iraq attacking the US, or anyone else for that matter, there is not going to be any US attack on Iraq?
feel like betting on it?

	03-08-2002 08:23									#120
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I would jump in but Asher seems to be handling both MarkG & paiktis22 more than adequately.

asher has been slamdunked a dozen times by now. but nice try monneypenny