07-08-2002 06:52									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Murder isn't black or white either .

Murder is. You either murder, or you don't.
Motivation or rational behind it is not black & white, though.

	07-08-2002 07:21									#122
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Asher, I understand what you are saying and agree completely, if that helps any

Question is, how would this work practically? How do you test the children? Would you continually retest them? Are these behaviors hardwired or can they change over time (I.e. can a boy who is a SP at age 7 turn into a NF at age 10?). How important are the differences? Important enough to break up good friends, even twins? How does this system deal with the huge number of incredibly dense parents who won't accept that their little genius is classified as an SP instead of an IN?


Anyway, speaking as someone who loathed most of grades 1-9 because the swedish school system forces the bright students to have the same pace as the least bright, I would applaud this system.

	07-08-2002 07:29									#123
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Question is, how would this work practically? How do you test the children? Would you continually retest them? Are these behaviors hardwired or can they change over time (I.e. can a boy who is a SP at age 7 turn into a NF at age 10?). How important are the differences? Important enough to break up good friends, even twins? How does this system deal with the huge number of incredibly dense parents who won't accept that their little genius is classified as an SP instead of an IN?

Those are all excellent questions, which is why I think it's best in a system like now. Learning styles may change over time, we don't know if it does.

There's too much complication in splitting kids up like that. I think the current system is fine, where it's up to the teachers how they teach the class. The good teachers will adjust it to meet the needs of most students.

I'm one of those people who doesn't fit in the boy or girl stereotype, so splitting up the boys and girls accomplishes nothing but can harm a lot.

I think blackice is exaggerating the problem. People have different learning preferences, it's not viable to meet them all. Splitting up the boys and girls doesn't get rid of the problem, but can create new ones (see PH's comment).

quote: Anyway, speaking as someone who loathed most of grades 1-9 because the swedish school system forces the bright students to have the same pace as the least bright, I would applaud this system.

I think that's an exception, moving the bright students up a couple grades or into a GATE program. My high school offered 3 levels of study: Regular, Advanced Placement, and International Baccalaureate (IB > AP > Regular). Those students who wanted to be challenged could go for it, and also jump up a grade or two if needed.

	07-08-2002 07:32									#124
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Asher:

quote: Dr. Hanlon's research adds to her previous research study, "Gender Differences in the Development of EEG Coherence in Normal Children," co-authored with Robert W. Thatcher Ph.D., and Marvin J. Cline pH. The research findings in that cross-sectional study concluded that males and females develop anatomical brain regions for known functional tasks on different time schedules. Since these changes appear in many brain regions around age seven and 11 years, the authors assumed that boys and girls each have specific functional goals that must be met in each period. That study appeared in Developmental Neuropsychology, 16(3), 479-506.

American Physiological Society (APS)
19-Oct-01

http://www.newswise.com/articles/20...ARNING.PH2.html

This is the type of research I am referring to. Check out National Foundation for Educational Research they came to the same conclusions.
Don’t get hung up one the word “assumed” since this study many have been done which confirm the findings. There is a gender issue here Asher to ignore is to remain stuck in the same vicious circle.

	07-08-2002 07:39									#125
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While interesting, it's stereotyping again. That much is obvious from the study.

It's also obvious it's implying a different learning style between boys and girls. While true for most boys and girls sharing similar learning style, there's still a sizable minority who do not (I'm one of them). Splitting into boys/girls doesn't fix the problem for everyone, it can make it worse for some people and better for others.

What's stopping the teacher from teaching both vocabulary sub-skills and phonic sub-skills? Shouldn't they be teaching both anyway? The boys will pick up most from vocab in general, the girls will pick up most from phonic sub-skills in general. Both are necessary.

This vocab vs phonic stuff reminds me of "left brain" vs "right brain".

	07-08-2002 07:54									#126
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It appears many researchers agree with this what Asher calls "blackice is exaggerating the problem"

But I will trust your many years experience with kids and this type of research and of course your "opinions" In the matter Asher.

The application of the study I previously mentioned can work too. But there is a social and gender bias in schools today that are harming kids. As the National Foundation for Educational Research reports show. Their extensive research into separate schools over 15 years tells a different story than Asher. Oddly enough not one mention of enhanced problems with the opposite sex after or before graduation hummm.

They did show both girls and boys in same sex schools scored higher results across the board. Something to do with gender and learning I guess you would have to have read the study to get something other than an “opinion"

	07-08-2002 08:00									#127
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blackice, you are exaggerating the problems. Research has proven that there's a stereotypical difference between how boys and girls learn. They're not stating it's a critical issue, in fact many studies suggest it's not a big deal: http://home.earthlink.net/~davidpdi...docs/grslss.htm

That's fine and all, but it's not the solution you seem to think it is. Once again, you see it as a black & white situation.

It's generally accepted to have four different learning styles. One of these are used by the majority of boys (and some girls), one of these by the majority of girls (and some boys), and the other two are mixed in somewhere in the middle.

I don't see how you think the current system has "gender bias" at all, and you've yet to actually demonstrate that. Wouldn't this depend on the teacher, not on the entire world like you're implying?

The fact is, not all boys learn the same way. Not all girls learn the same way. At my school, we had mixed boys & girls. The teachers tended to vary how they taught certain topics, we had tutorial sessions every morning for 45 minutes before class so those who needed help could come in and get 1 on 1 attention. That means the teachers could teach it to the student how the student learns best.

You're making it sound like boys and only boys can understand English, girls and only girls can understand French, and the schools only teach in French.

	07-08-2002 08:01									#128
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quote: While interesting, it's stereotyping again.

Asher is ignorance bliss? You claim studies done in Developmental Neuropsychology is stereotyping? Tell us more Dr. Asher
Unreal if there is a difference in genders it is stereotyping according to Asher.

quote: Splitting into boys/girls doesn't fix the problem for everyone, it can make it worse for some people and better for others.

Splitting them is the beginning of a change for the better. Once done more applied science can be implemented to make it better for all. Your opinion is short sighted and simply an "opinion" of doom.

	07-08-2002 08:04									#129
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Asher is ignorance bliss? You claim studies done in Developmental Neuropsychology is stereotyping? Tell us more Dr. Asher Unreal if there is a difference in genders it is stereotyping according to Asher.

Um. It is stereotyping to make statements like:
"All boys do __________" and "All girls do _________".
I speak from personal experience when I say that I don't think like "most boys do" in the reports you've cited. They claim math is boys' strongpoints, and english is girls' strongpoints, and I've struggled with math all of my life and have had no problem with English.

But of course the reports you've mentioned stated boys are better in math due to them using the right side of their brain more, so I must be lying!! ... or perhaps the reports are simply stereotyping what is the case with most boys surveyed. Get it?

I think your problem isn't with gender bias in education, but a lack of education altogether.

quote: Splitting them is the beginning of a change for the better.

Why is splitting them into boys and girls better than splitting them specifically into different learning styles?

	07-08-2002 08:30									#130
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Comparing Student Learning Styles in an Online
Distance Learning Class and an Equivalent On-Campus Class

quote: Research has proven that there's a stereotypical difference between how boys and girls learn. They're not stating it's a critical issue, in fact many studies suggest it's not a big deal:

The link you provided does not mention “gender” what so ever. More smoke and mirrors. It most certainly does not mention any of what you claim in this opening statement of yours. You have yet to provide one link to back your “opinion” and now want me except this ruse as proof. I have provided several and can provide many more. I figure you are bored with nothing to do. You must be to post that last bit of completely off topic information.

quote: It's generally accepted to have four different learning styles. One of these are used by the majority of boys (and some girls), one of these by the majority of girls (and some boys), and the other two are mixed in somewhere in the middle.

Then you would have to agree there are differences and they need to be addressed.

quote: I don't see how you think the current system has "gender bias" at all, and you've yet to actually demonstrate that. Wouldn't this depend on the teacher, not on the entire world like you're implying?

I have and will continue to do so. It depends on many things, social, economical, teachers, gender…

quote: Advocates for girls succeeded in putting pressure on Congress to pass the 1994 Gender Equity in Education Act. Which provided millions of dollars in support for programs aimed at correcting sexism in the classroom, including special math and science programs for girls, sensitivity workshops for educators and new textbooks that corrected gender stereotypes (i.e., women as nurses, men as doctors). Specifically banned discrimination against girls in school. From the beginning, critics of the empowerment movement claimed that creating special programs for girls was sexist. Later, other researchers -- most prominently Diane Ravitch, a fellow at the Brookings Institution and a former assistant secretary of education, and Christina Hoff Sommers, author of the 1992 book "Who Stole Feminism" and "The War Against Boys" . Began to question whether there had ever been a "girl crisis" in the first place. These critics painted the feminist leaders of the girl empowerment movement as adult women who were somewhat hysterically looking for evidence of patriarchal coercion where none existed, in order to correct inequities that had been solved by the previous generation. Just last month, the results of a study that tested 15-year-old students in 32 industrialized nations reflected that girls score much higher than boys in reading and [in most countries, including the United States] are on par with the boys in math and science. Authors of the report, issued by PISA (the Program for International Assessment, a French-based international consortium of educational researchers), called the reverse gender gap "striking." Additional studies show that girls, on average, also have better grades in high school and college and are more likely to be enrolled in accelerated or advanced-placement classes. Boys are much more likely to be held back, diagnosed with a learning disability or put in a remedial or special education class. College admission and graduate rates for girls have soared since 1950. They now constitute the majority of college students and college graduates. And girls earned 57.2 percent of the bachelor's degrees awarded in 2000; boys earned 42.8 percent.

The only reason you are of the “opinion” I did not prove it was because you did not read it. More “smoke and mirrors from Dr. Asher.

	07-08-2002 08:36									#131
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quote: Originally posted by blackice The link you provided does not mention “gender” what so ever. More smoke and mirrors.

It's only smoke and mirrors if you're clueless as to what's going on. The article is about differences in learning, which is stereotyped repeatedly by you with gender. I made the mistake of assuming you'd get the connection, so I'll spell it out for you. The gender differences you keep citing are nothing but a generalized form of different styles of learning applied to genders. The article I cited is about different styles of learning in a general sense, it wasn't intended to talk about gender specifically. Your gender difference is just applied learning differences generalized, nothing more.

quote: You have yet to provide one link to back your “opinion” and now want me except this ruse as proof.

My opinion is that the current system is adequate, and that link itself comes to the conclusion that there are differences in learning but nobody knows if it's beneficial to split them up.
Earlier I've provided ample evidence to the suggestion of no less than four different styles of learning, and still you insist about splitting the population into two segments based on sex and teaching them accordingly by stereotype.

I don't even think you know what's going on, blackice...

quote: Then you would have to agree there are differences and they need to be addressed.

I believe the current system addresses them just fine. At least they have for me, and my brother...

Maybe you just had bad teachers, blackice?

quote: More “smoke and mirrors from Dr. Asher.

You take one catchphrase and you stick to it, don't you? Even when you have no clue whatsoever what's going on!

I feel like I'm a dog chasing my own tail whenever I debate with you, blackice, so I'm just going to stop trying right now. We'll have to agree to disagree.

	07-08-2002 08:39									#132
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quote: I think your problem isn't with gender bias in education, but a lack of education altogether.

I was wonder when you would resort to your basic immature ways.

The problem is you don't think. You have "opinions based on personal experiences which you try to justify as facts for all. You have remained off topic. Posted non-sense for topic like the above tripe.

Online school education Then try to convince the unwitting that in fact it is a study to back your claim. In the mean time it has nothing to do with what you said. WTFIT

Face it Asher once again you are in a topic you have no idea about.

You must be bored bigtime...

	07-08-2002 08:42									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Wrong. == Girl trouble their entire lives. At least, much more trouble than those who actually grew up in contact with females.

I love this idea that just because some of you went to co-educational schools that you understand women better, or indeed at all.

That has got to be the biggest piece of self delusion I have heard for a while

	07-08-2002 08:46									#134
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Look, blackice, I'm not sure whether you're just REALLY stupid and think I'm the one that's really stupid, or if you're high and are getting a kick out of it. But I assure you I'm not the one talking out of my ass.

You're the one stereotyping all genders and neglecting everyone else who doesn't fit in the stereotype while at the same time whining how the current system neglects males in general (which is certainly not the case from my own personal experience, and is ALSO not the case for any links or evidence in studies you have provided). Citing links in learning differences gets you absolutely nowhere, since we know people learn differently. Citing links that generalize how each gender learns does not guarantee every member of that gender learns the same way -- it stereotypes.

If you want to show that the current system is dominated by "feminists" (as per one of your first posts) and neglects males in general, I haven't seen it myself and certainly don't see the evidence anywhere in North America. Males seem to be doing just fine.

Now if you want to cite some reputable sources showing how males are being neglected in the face of the feminist oppressors running the school districts, be my guest.

Somehow I'm not surprised you've managed to turn this thread into another thread with your vendetta against women. Oh, I'm sorry, you don't have a problem with women. It's just a coincidence all of your issues trace back to women.

...

Anyway I'm done now. For real this time.

Have a nice night.

	07-08-2002 09:04									#135
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quote: It's only smoke and mirrors if you're clueless as to what's going on.

Exactly if one did not take the time to look at it they would be the clueless. You know the ones you tried to convince it had anything to do with what you said about reports. Grow up.

quote: The article is about differences in learning, which is stereotyped repeatedly by you with gender.

The article is about online learning Asher Give it up man. Dr. Asher differences in gender are not all stereotyping. You need to learn that first and foremost.

quote: The gender differences you keep citing are nothing but a generalized form of different styles of learning applied to genders.

Yes Dr. Asher all these Doctors and they all generalize with years of specific studies. Right give it up Dr. Asher

quote: The article I cited is about different styles of learning in a general sense, it wasn't intended to talk about gender specifically.

It was about in school and online learning Dr. Asher that as usual for you OFF TOPIC.

quote: Your gender difference is just applied learning differences generalized, nothing more.

Another “opinion” and you have read nothing I posted… Amazing like talking to a dead dog.

quote: My opinion is that the current system is adequate, and that link itself comes to the conclusion that there are differences in learning but nobody knows if it's beneficial to split them up.

And you alone, many do read the links of the 15 years of studies. Amazing you claim to be so smart and yet you have no clue. You debate for the sake of debating with no clue of the subject matter or the studies and or report’s done. Give it up Dr. Asher

quote: Earlier I've provided ample evidence to the suggestion of no less than four different styles of learning

Dr. Asher not one addressed the gender differences what was your point again oh they have to be ignored. If you do studies on them you are stereotyping. Give it up Dr. Asher

quote: I don't even think you know what's going on, blackice

More immaturity coming out Asher. Again you don’t think you are trying to convince people of a subject matter you “claim” your “opinion” proves you right. Yet you have no clue what you are talking about. Tonight was the first time you ever discussed this and or thought about it. That is so painfully obvious.

quote: I believe the current system addresses them just fine. At least they have for me, and my brother...

As I said your “opinions” come from personal experiences not years of studies and certainly not a degree in the sciences involved or studied knowledge. I doubt you even have an interest in the subject until your google search tonight… “Opinions” only that’s ok but as I said stop trying to pass them off as “facts”. You and your brother represent an extremely small portion of the male population.

Good it was getting tiresome dealing with your ignorance on the subject matter. Hey “smoke and mirrors” fit exactly what you were, are doing. If the catch phrase fits use it.

	07-08-2002 09:07									#136
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* Asher wonders if blackice realizes that online learning is simply an application of different learning styles in practice

After all, the conclusion was:

quote: Before faculty rush to find out the effects of learning styles on student outcomes, they should first address the issue of whether learning style differences exist at all. ... Faculty should use social learning style inventories and resulting data for the purpose of facilitating class preparation, designing class delivery methods, choosing educational technologies, and developing sensitivity to differing student learning preferences ...

	07-08-2002 09:13									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: growing up in an all male household You mean the mother was a MAN?!

You dummy Imran, everybody knows that mothers are not women

At least in the eyes of their sons anyway........unless there is something very weird going on in your house

	07-08-2002 09:32									#138
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quote: Look, blackice, I'm not sure whether you're just REALLY stupid and think I'm the one that's really stupid, or if you're high and are getting a kick out of it. But I assure you I'm not the one talking out of my ass.

Your “opinion” again.

quote: You're the one stereotyping all genders and neglecting everyone else who doesn't fit in the stereotype while at the same time whining how the current system neglects males in general

Gender issues are not stereotyping Dr. Asher you have to get over that concept in order to understand yourself, let alone any other gender issue.

quote: (which is certainly not the case from my own personal experience, and is ALSO not the case for any links or evidence in studies you have provided).

Dr.Asher you did not read any of them your “opinion” is not very informed.

quote: Citing links in learning differences gets you absolutely nowhere, since we know people learn differently. Citing links that generalize how each gender learns does not guarantee every member of that gender learns the same way -- it stereotypes.

No Dr.Asher it gives insight into the differences between the genders in hopes to improve the over all education system for everyone.

quote: If you want to show that the current system is dominated by "feminists" (as per one of your first posts) and neglects males in general, I haven't seen it myself and certainly don't see the evidence anywhere in North America. Males seem to be doing just fine.

Wow a lot of traveling you have done. You conducted this research can we see the papers? Have you published them yet? Give it up Dr. Asher your ruse is over.

quote: Now if you want to cite some reputable sources showing how males are being neglected in the face of the feminist oppressors running the school districts, be my guest.

I did several times it is a matter of history and fact, this clearly shows you have no idea.

quote: Somehow I'm not surprised you've managed to turn this thread into another thread with your vendetta against women.

More lies, I do not have a vendetta against women and have not turned this into one. I posted on topic. Gender differences in learning. You have ignored it from the onset. Ok you did make the comment about Gay porno’s coming from all boys’ schools. Do you have proof this is a common ongoing problem?

quote: Oh, I'm sorry, you don't have a problem with women. It's just a coincidence all of your issues trace back to women.

Gender issues usually involve women Dr.Asher, and yes I post male issues and children’s issues and women’s issues. It is you that have the “opinion” these issue are anti-female. It may surprise you to know women head most men’s groups. Misandrists can be male too obviously…

Now the topic Dr. Asher was does he send his kids to an all-male school.
The only objections so far are about becoming gay in one, involved in gay porno flicks…and or the personal experience of not relating to women because they went to one.

Pretty weak so far. On the other hand years of studies show it’s an advantage educationally for the kids. Easy choice really.

Have a nice night. You too

	07-08-2002 09:40									#139
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Yes Dr. Asher it is not gender related is it? Some conclusion maybe they should draw up on the 15-year studies that have been done on difference between same sex classes and mixed. After all both genders agree same sex classes scored higher marks. I thought that was the topic, more “smoke and mirrors” from the boy in the room…

Good night Dr. Asher

	07-08-2002 09:44									#140
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quote: Originally posted by blackice I would I think they will get involved with girls soon enough, boys will be boys. The best advantage being the all boys schools treat boys as boys. Mixed schools more often then not tend to ignore what boys are all about. IE they are becoming more feminized and show no tollerance to boys. Medications are increasing in boys to help them be calm just like the girls. The vase changes to the education systems have created a drop off of boys doing well. While the current studies indecate it is because of the lack of understanding of what boys are all about. We have vast studies to show what girls are all about and a lot of those have dictated the changes to the mixed school systems. I could go on, surfice to say being a boy and being taught in an environment that understands what it is to be one can only be an advantage to your kids.

This actually summarises my view quite well We have something here called " the crisis in boys education". This crisis has coincided with increasing co-education and less male teachers.

Like girls, Boys have special gender related needs, they seem to do better in a single sex environment. The point Sneak and others made about the sensivity of teenage boys is also very valid.

	07-08-2002 10:04									#141
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True good to be back on topic.

	07-08-2002 10:31									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I love this idea that just because some of you went to co-educational schools that you understand women better, or indeed at all. That has got to be the biggest piece of self delusion I have heard for a while

:shrug:

Think what you want.

	07-08-2002 10:36									#143
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak That's right...the cold hard facts of this world is that networking pays. The rich do get richer indeed...and if I have a choice between my kid rubbing elbows with future captains of industry vs. future food stamp cashers, I'm picking the former. Not that it matches my idealistic fantasy worldview, but the older I get, the more I realize it isn't nearly so much what you know as who you know. Sad, but true.

Indeed the Old Boys' Network is very much alive.

	07-08-2002 10:48									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns :shrug: Think what you want.

I will and I think the idea you know more about women than I do because you went to a co-ed school is laughable So I laugh

Maybe you're just more "house trained" shall we say

I went to an all male school from the age of 10 but there was an all girl school right across the road, Mary Immaculate College (lol, the only immaculate thing about them was their sex drive, which matched ours perfectly).

I don't mean to boast when I say a little rendez vous on the way to school for some frantic groping with whatever girlfriend I had at the time , followed by a quick deeply penitent novena of course, was part of my morning routine from about year 8 or 9.

But I was also damn to glad to say goodbye to said girlfriend at the school gate and spend the day with my mates doing fun boyish things with other boys

	07-08-2002 12:12									#145
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Horse, are you intentionally ignoring the male chauvinist part of the issue?

A product from an all boys school might not have a problem to get laid (hell, pretty any guy out there can give anectodal evidence that *******s score more than nice guys), but they might have other issues dealing with the opposite sex. As I said before, I've seen firsthand the 'us vs. them' mentality...

	07-08-2002 12:22									#146
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Asher, I don't quite get what you mean. Are you saying that we shouldn't have separate classes for boys and girls because there are exceptions to the rule? If we assume that 80% of boys belong to the SP group, and 80% of all girls belong to the IF group, diving up SP-tailored education to all boys and IF-tailored education to all girls would give 80% education tailored to their character, instead of the 40% we currently have... Right?

	07-08-2002 12:26									#147
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OH, BTW, the option of moving up a class didn;t exist in Sweden. sweden suffers quite badly from socialism, where one of the fundamental tenets is that everyone is equal. Encouraging a smart student would make the morons feel bad, and we can't have that, can we?

Another reason why I now live in the US...

	07-08-2002 12:28									#148
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I'm not sure sexism comes into it. School is a small part of the puzzle and probably not the key determinant.

One thing I'm determined to do is to get them to treat girls better than I did but I don't think my rape and pillage attitudes were shaped by the school environment. I was just a sh*t

Having all boys, Mrs Horse and I are really looking forward to the day when girls brighten up our smelly farting burping household. We want them to feel welcome and safe. We've already talked about this, probably reflecting the testosterone overload we currently have, which is hard to ignore I have to say.

	07-08-2002 12:29									#149
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BlackIce, before you declare victory, do your little dance or whatever it is you do... You might want to actually understand what Asher is saying. From your posts so far it is pretty clear that you:
A: have no idea what Asher is talking about
B: Should avoind the word "opinion" as you don't seem to grasp the meaning of it.

	07-08-2002 12:31									#150
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Horse, you sure about the size of the part? I'd say the school years are very important... (Although, I don;t know if you;ve mentioned this so far, how old are the boys. What level school are we contemplating?)