20-10-2004 04:07									#1411
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow 7

	20-10-2004 13:12									#1412
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* Straybow wakes up, wipes drool from kbd…

quote: My faithful ally doesn't seem to have great confidence in non native speakers

Anything above the "Ugh, me Tarzan" level of communication works fine by me.

I had to handle a Civ2Dip transaction for La Fayette since he doesn't have it reinstalled on his comp. I figured it was OK, as our civs are allied and he is sending me a map anyway. I didn't do anything or look around, just re-saved and sent it to LF.

However, I can't recall if there is an explicit rule about how and when we can give permission to other players to open our civs' saves.

Secondly, the 2940 turn screw-up shield restoration thingy. Any final objections? Kull? Stefan?

	20-10-2004 13:35									#1413
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow * Straybow wakes up, wipes drool from kbd… quote: My faithful ally doesn't seem to have great confidence in non native speakers Anything above the "Ugh, me Tarzan" level of communication works fine by me. I had to handle a Civ2Dip transaction for La Fayette since he doesn't have it reinstalled on his comp. I figured it was OK, as our civs are allied and he is sending me a map anyway. I didn't do anything or look around, just re-saved and sent it to LF. However, I can't recall if there is an explicit rule about how and when we can give permission to other players to open our civs' saves.

Emergency breaks rules, as the saying goes (here )
I would say that no matter how closely allied you are, it is obviously not allowed to open another civ's save .
Doing so would effectively merge the civ's.
If you can show me any example in history where allies agreed to replace all heads of Departments with nationals of their ally, I might change my position.

Although it may be bothersome if you're close allies, all information must be shared via other means than opening the save.

quote: Secondly, the 2940 turn screw-up shield restoration thingy. Any final objections? Kull? Stefan?

I want to add your so-called allies as well. I haven't heard a single sillable on this issue from LaFayette or Kengel.
While I certainly trust you Straybow, as a matter of principle I do not accept just your word on the intentions of both these fella's

On a related issue: what is the unit doing now? (that was build instead of the HG) Needless to say this has to be disbanded in either Iconion, or drown in the Med or something.

Good luck with the effort.

Ugh.

	20-10-2004 13:41									#1414
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Oh, I want to add that before the advent of CivDip, people would work around the AI diplomacy via online (MP) sessions. Maybe that would have worked as well

	20-10-2004 14:02									#1415
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Hehe, the last time we tried to arrange an MP session to facilitate trade took days to iron out the kinks.

The unit the AI genious created is wandering slowly towards the periphery of Hatta lands. Any correction shall include the removal of said unit before it bumps into any other unit, which would cause a rift in the time-space continuum.

quote: I want to add your so-called allies as well. I haven't heard a single sillable on this issue from LaFayette or Kengel.

I'll nudge La Fayette. I actually don't hear much from kengel, but I'll send him a nudge as well. Is a "sillable" the equivalent of a "silly word?"

quote: While I certainly trust you Straybow, as a matter of principle I do not accept just your word on the intentions of both these fella's

* Straybow thinks: Muahahahaha, now that I have him fooled I've got it made.

Oops, did I say that out loud?

	20-10-2004 15:48									#1416
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There is an Assyrian skirmisher very close to the proud Minoan city of Psychro: "if you don't leave the vicinity..."
BTW a Minoan skirmisher met an Assyrian caravan west of the proud Assyrian city of Ish-Mandarun. The Assyrian caravan was willing to have war. Could someone please remind me what is to be done in such a case (keeping in mind that Minos doesn't wish to be at war with Assyria).

Attachment: mi_b2900.net
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	20-10-2004 15:55									#1417
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I want to add your so-called allies as well. I haven't heard a single sillable on this issue from LaFayette or Kengel.

Which issue?
I'm not sure I have clearly understood.
Anyway if it is about the problem of shields lost by the Hittite leader, this is a technical problem that I'll let the specialists solve. I have no idea what the best solution would be and I am confident that you will find a satisfactory answer.

(BTW what is a so-called ally?)

	20-10-2004 17:13									#1418
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I must disagree with germanos a little (only because my relationship with Assyria is worsened )

quote: Originally posted by germanos I would say that no matter how closely allied you are, it is obviously not allowed to open another civ's save. ... If you can show me any example in history where allies agreed to replace all heads of Departments with nationals of their ally, I might change my position.

Straybow, did you ask about opening a save to obtain an information or to let your civ to be ruled by your ally?
I will comment both:

Letting people to look at my save:
I don't think there is a difference between
1. allowing it
and
2. sending map screenshot and screenshots of all my cities or describing everything by words.
2nd way is only more laborious. I think it can be allowed.

Letting another person to rule my civ:
Let us suppose La Fayette is better in caravan management and Straybow in managing a war. So LF will play both civs under peace and Straybow under war. Or they will proceed turns collectively. I am strongly against this. This way this game could finish that only two players are playing all civs

But...
I am not 100% sure if it was in this thread where I noticed a debate like it is normal to let an ally rule his civ if a player is absent.
Also I remember I was asked to rule Minos before LF came: I didn't want to do it, because I was not allied nor I had any info about Minos and it's surroundings (I had black map there) and I would get an advantage.
But this is another case: The temporary leader can obtain no additional info (and so no advantage).
We had several Ctrl-N on both Hittites and Minoans and I think this this could be avoided if they replaced one another.
In other words I prefer replacements in case of absence over those Ctrl-N.

Another point - also Persia got many Ctrl-N hits past turns . Maybe Sparrowhawk (or Zedd again?) could manage Persia temporarily ? (and in a neutral diplomatic fashion)
BTW I added an announcement also to CDGroups.

Concerning the CivDip file applied by Straybow: I do not consider it as breaking rules in emergency. It is a technical issue only. I think LF can let the CivDip file to be applied by his daughter or Straybow or anybody else - I see no problem.

Edited: typos

	20-10-2004 21:03									#1419
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette There is an Assyrian skirmisher very close to the proud Minoan city of Psychro: "if you don't leave the vicinity..." BTW a Minoan skirmisher met an Assyrian caravan west of the proud Assyrian city of Ish-Mandarun. The Assyrian caravan was willing to have war. Could someone please remind me what is to be done in such a case (keeping in mind that Minos doesn't wish to be at war with Assyria).

Just ignore the AI. If the AI actually declares war, ignore it as well. Peace can be restored via CivDip or other means. If all that fails, the in-game status of war can simply be ignored as a last resort.

	20-10-2004 21:10									#1420
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Letting people to look at my save: I don't think there is a difference between 1. allowing it and 2. sending map screenshot and screenshots of all my cities or describing everything by words. 2nd way is only more laborious. I think it can be allowed.

I completely disagree
Unless we have a faliure to communicate, as is often the case, and you actually say that the more laburous way can be allowed. In that case I fully agree. Make your screenshots and write your texts or talk on the phone, whatever: ANYTHING but allowing somebody else into your seat.

quote: But... I am not 100% sure if it was in this thread where I noticed a debate like it is normal to let an ally rule his civ if a player is absent.

I usually object to that as well, and have done so in other games.

	20-10-2004 21:14									#1421
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette BTW a Minoan skirmisher met an Assyrian caravan west of the proud Assyrian city of Ish-Mandarun. The Assyrian caravan was willing to have war.

I think they should be send to trade with Babylon. They can join the fighting once they dropped their cargo's

	20-10-2004 22:47									#1422
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Concerning the reconstruction of Straybow's shields: you should remember it sooner, you have to wait until next turn because I have no free time now.
What I have to do: I have a source of the Civ2Admin program, I will use it and rewrite it so that it finds your city in the .sav file and changes the amount of shields (maybe gold too? didn't you tell unit was rushbought?)

	20-10-2004 22:48									#1423
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When I was announcing at CDG I noticed a poll "Should reloading be allowed". Only 14% answered "Yes, it should be banned in any situation" !! There were answers like "I simply don't care" etc. It is terrible.
I must appreciate a discipline we have here. Straybow doubts and asks immediately.
I cannot imagine how are other PBEMs? Do players anything that they want? Germanos? La Fayette? (so far this is my only PBEM)

	20-10-2004 22:53									#1424
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quote: Originally posted by germanos you actually say that the more laburous way can be allowed.

Do you mean I din't want to let you scout my cities and prefered to write demand manually? But there is a difference between these two ways. With the second way you know position of a city only after a caravan goes there (or goes around).
Conversely I see no difference between opening a save and posting many of images and text.

quote: ANYTHING but allowing somebody else into your seat.

But why? There is probably some intuitive reason, so explain it pls.

BTW...

quote: I usually object to that as well, and have done so in other games.

You agreed more than me when I should manage Minoans in the past

Edited: added a sentence

	21-10-2004 01:21									#1425
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So far we have no clear system how to solve situations where different opinions exist. (My recent proposition was drowned out . But it still didn't contain instructions how to move in the current question.)
(BTW usually germanos, me and sometimes Kull talk about problems of rules. Others have no own opinions?)

In the begining of this game there was a very simple idea you can do anything that is possible also in SP or MP, except reloading and a diplomacy before a contact.
When new rules were accepted Kull brought in a good principle that all players must agree with a new rule.
I think that everybody agrees up to this point.

Let us take a question if Straybow may work with CivDip in place of La Fayette for example.
There are two main possibilities:
(1) It is allowed until all players say they disagree
(2) It is disallowed until all players say they agree
(Now I won't deal with a question if all players must explicitly say YES or no player must say NO)
I don't have a clear stand to this question...

Otherwise the question with opening saves of other players looks clearer for me: I think it should be disallowed until all players say they agree. Simply because you don't do it in MP or SP.

Similarly with sending screenshots. Such a rule should be disallowed until all players say they agree. It doesn't belong to a normal MP or SP.
BTW ... not all players (if any) said they agree with current rules.

Edited: polished a little

Last edited by SlowThinker on 21-10-2004 at 03:03

	21-10-2004 03:37									#1426
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I only now realize that there is no reason for Straybow to enter LaFayette save

What is there to give that cannot be demanded?



And more to the point: CivDip is a utility that works outside Civ2. You can use the utility even if you don't have Civ2 on your computer All you need is the rules.txt and the save...

	21-10-2004 04:14									#1427
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Yes, this is why I think the Straybow's acting for LaFayette in CivDip should be considered correct from any point of view. CivDip shows him only things that LaFayette could Ctrl-C and send by e-mail easily.

I think he wants
1. to look at the save of his ally, because then they can collaborate more comfortably than with sending screenshots
or
2. to manage civ of his ally, anytime or when one is missing.

	21-10-2004 04:23									#1428
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No, it is something else:

quote: Originally posted by Straybow I had to handle a Civ2Dip transaction for La Fayette since he doesn't have it reinstalled on his comp. I figured it was OK, as our civs are allied and he is sending me a map anyway. I didn't do anything or look around, just re-saved and sent it to LF.

If he was doing 1), then that is what I would object to.

	21-10-2004 08:07									#1429
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I only now realize that there is no reason for Straybow to enter LaFayette save What is there to give that cannot be demanded? And more to the point: CivDip is a utility that works outside Civ2. You can use the utility even if you don't have Civ2 on your computer All you need is the rules.txt and the save...

I couldn't demand the map yet. LF was to do his turn which may include some map swaps. I needed to make a 2900 save for Minos so that I could make a valid Civ2Dip packet from him to me. Then I apply the Civ2Dip to his final 2900 save which goes to me. Otherwise it would be another full turn before I got the map.

quote: If he was doing 1), then that is what I would object to.

Not the case here. Of course, it was like trying not to scratch a really intense itch.

* Straybow thinks: Must... Not... Look...

	21-10-2004 17:05									#1430
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow I needed to make a 2900 save for Minos so that I could make a valid Civ2Dip packet from him to me.

(So the barter went from Minoans to Hittites, OK?)
make a save? You could download it...

next part is removed:

quote: Then you should take the 2910 turn of Minoans to prepare his barter. CivDip works over the year switch (from 2910 to 2900). The 2900 save of Minoans should work too, but.... CivDip needs Minoan save to prepare the offer. So only problem is if Minoans offered something that they didn't have in 2910.(??) If not then I suggest to move the game on.

(Removed: SlowThinker was thinking too fast)

But I would like not to stop our debate about rules and to finish with some conclusion.

	21-10-2004 17:12									#1431
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All Hatta is buzzing with excitement of new lands discovered by the brave mariners of the isles. The master-plan of building is showing the first fruits of progress. The King is happy.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Concerning the reconstruction of Straybow's shields: you should remember it sooner, you have to wait until next turn because I have no free time now. What I have to do: I have a source of the Civ2Admin program, I will use it and rewrite it so that it finds your city in the .sav file and changes the amount of shields (maybe gold too? didn't you tell unit was rushbought?)

Might as well delay 2 turns because Iconion is now 2 turns from completing current production. Then the box will be clear and a shield fix can be applied.

	21-10-2004 17:43									#1432
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Sorry, I edited my last post

	21-10-2004 20:49									#1433
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Situation with the use of CivDip is unclear for me, Straybow pls explain. I downloaded but I am waiting.

quote: Originally posted by Straybow Might as well delay 2 turns because Iconion is now 2 turns from completing current production. Then the box will be clear and a shield fix can be applied.

What do you mean? I can revert situation as would be if wonder production continued, but you cannot build anything in the meantime or you must not use it. I suppose the unit that was built already stays in the city?

	21-10-2004 20:53									#1434
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1) About rules:
The other PBEMs I am involved in (namely "crusty" and "7players") have a threadstarter who is more or less the boss: he knows the rules and asks the other players only when there is a problem.

IMO Kull is (or should be) the boss in this game, especially because it is very clear that Germanos and SlowThinker seldom agree

2) About restoring Straybow's shields:
I say YES (since there seems to be no problem hidden behind)

3) About replacements:
I have replaced my ally Carolus in the 7 players PBEM and everyone agreed. But we are free to decide otherwise in this PBEM.
Yet, I am strongly in favour of a replacement of Stefan by Sparrowhawk, if Sparrowhawk agrees.

	22-10-2004 08:35									#1435
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quote: Situation with the use of CivDip is unclear for me, Straybow pls explain. I downloaded but I am waiting.

As I understand Civ2Dip, if I made an offer from the 2910 Minoan save it would only be valid until the next Minoan turn. Civ2Dip would say the offer has expired if I tried to apply it to Minos' 2900 save.

I suppose he could have told me to make an offer as Minos from his end of turn save, but that wasn't in my thinking at the time.

quote: I can revert situation as would be if wonder production continued, but you cannot build anything in the meantime or you must not use it.

Instead, apply half the shields (40 + 5 for lost turn production) to a caravan in 2 turns. A wiser choice if abandoning a Wonder. The useless 20-shield unit (early chariot) that was created by the AI will be disbanded away from a city next turn if the correction is acceptable. Worry about Wonders later.

PS: We are displeased with the "code" block since it messes up the page layout.

	22-10-2004 13:49									#1436
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow PS: We are displeased with the "code" block since it messes up the page layout.

seconded



On the replacement issue:

While I probably will not veto somebody substituting for an allied player, I do have strong reservations against it.

In any case, we have Sparrowhawk who appears to be willing to substitute if the need arises. (as he has done once for me).

I do think that in the interest of the game, it is important to keep all players commited, and therefore it is important not to create all kind of possibilities to legally skip turns. Especially in the case of war, the advantage of one player governing two empires/ armies is overwhelming. It is just so much easier to coordinate tactics and strategy when you have full control.

Then there is the matter of my first or second PBEM where I had very bad experience with an ally substituting for an absent player. (I will find the link, if possible).

edit: pre-WWI Germany is smashed by the unified command of France and Russia

Summary of the above link:
one player is absent for a copple of weeks (hollidays).
His ally substitutes. (Russia substitutes for France).
Before France returns from holidays, Russia launches a surprise attack on Germany, and mobs up with French forces.
Note: the game itself is not so important, it was a lousy scenario anyway, but it just shows how poerfull a unified command is.

	22-10-2004 23:27									#1437
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quote: Originally posted by germanos In any case, we have Sparrowhawk who appears to be willing to substitute if the need arises. (as he has done once for me).

I contacted SparrowHawk concerning Stephan: it looks he is willing to replace Stephan temporarily and maybe ... he would bury himself in and continued if we need a permanent replacement. (see next post)

quote: Originally posted by germanos I do think that in the interest of the game, it is important to keep all players commited, and therefore it is important not to create all kind of possibilities to legally skip turns. Especially in the case of war...

As usually I consider it a good argument, but for opposite stance .
Especially in case of war you need that your civ is managed quite precise. There are usually problems with internet connection in this thread. So La Fayette wouldn't be able to describe his strategic intentions to SparrowHawk (or any uninterested party). And if he were able to do it then it would be much easier to explain them to Straybow who knows all preceding arrangements.

quote: Especially in the case of war, the advantage of one player governing two empires/ armies is overwhelming.

But they can swap maps each turn, they add a screenshot of F2 window and they are very close to situation where one player manages both civs. And with even more effort allies can achieve the same coordination like if one man manages both civs.

quote: It is just so much easier to coordinate tactics and strategy when you have full control.

It is less laborious. I don't like games that recompense rough work (like Civ2 and its micromanagement).

We play a PBEM with full diplomacy: I think common command is only very small advantage in comparison with the fact that two players may join against another one.

I expressed also one kind of objection (that in final only two players managing two alliances could play), but IMHO the problems around missing players are more important. It may annoy if you see your war achievements from 10 turns are lost in one turn of your absence. And as you said: it is important to keep players commited.
So I strongly agree with a rule disallowing replacements, but not in the case of an absence.

	22-10-2004 23:28									#1438
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First I will introduce you in my talk with Sparrowhawk:

quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk by PM quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker by PM don't you want to play Persia in SoG PBEM, at least temporarily? ST If that is the best solution I could, but as I have stated previously, I don't think that is the best idea. I have seen most Civs by subbing, and have knowledge most others don't. I also have little idea of the tech chart and unit abilities (but even with limited knowledge I could do better then Control N). Having said this, if it is still thought to be preferable for me to fill in until a more suitable replacement is found I would do so....would this mean I would no longer sub for other missing players? ?Sparrowhawk

I think there are two kinds of replacements that we need:

1) A temporary replacement (we should give Stefan a chance to come back as we did in case of Straybow - I propose end of November)
IMHO a temporary sub shouldn't participate in alliances but to stay neutral and continue past Stefan's diplomatic treatment (each civ can report past agreements to the sub).

2) A permanent replacement (starts after temporary replacement if Stefan won't come)

There is a question if SparrowHawk wants to be a permanent sub if nobody other comes.
And if he does then there is a question of his Ctrl-N acting: he saw some maps, so rulers of these civs should say if they disagree with permanent replacement by Sparrowhawk.

	23-10-2004 02:13									#1439
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow As I understand Civ2Dip, if I made an offer from the 2910 Minoan save it would only be valid until the next Minoan turn. Civ2Dip would say the offer has expired if I tried to apply it to Minos' 2900 save.

So you prepared a barter that should be applied on 2900 Minoan save. OK?
Then you should take your preceding turn (2900 Hittite save) for preparation of an offer.
At least I suppose this is way how CivDip is working.

But I think CivDip cannot spoil the save even if applied incorectly... so I will play (tomorrow probably).

	23-10-2004 02:14									#1440
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Instead, apply half the shields (40 + 5 for lost turn production) to a caravan in 2 turns.

I am against such things. We are simulating situation x turns ago. X turns ago you weren't wiser and you wanted to continue in wonder production. I can restore situation like if wonder production continues. You are wiser now, so you can change production now.