22-10-2002 13:02									#151
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quote: They don't seriously claim to be a successor state to the ancient macedonians do they?

well they have several versions of history, from accepting that they are slavs that came to the area around 600-700AD to saying that ancience macedonias were "pre-slavs" who spoke and wrote in their own prehistoric slav language and alphabet

	22-10-2002 13:08									#152
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from the site vetlegion linked

yeap, no territorial claims just a little stupid historical dispute

	22-10-2002 16:05									#153
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I was wondering what the reaction would be if Japan came out with a map that included Guam and the Hawaiian Islands as part of their sovereign state! Or Mexico showing FL or the SW States as part of their country.

I guess Bush would nuke them to the ground and ask questions later! Now that's where Greece differs and in whole did and has done a good job with the whole situation. We are not best friends but we have learned how to live with eachother for the moment. People in States have never really felt threatened by a country that borders them nor have they ever had a history such as most European countries which burden their present. Don't take me wrong I envy you for that but on the other side the same fact gives you a more naive and oversimplified look on other problems. Thus, you do not always understand to what extend something like this may affect somebody.

So long....

	22-10-2002 19:58									#154
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer I was wondering what the reaction would be if Japan came out with a map that included Guam and the Hawaiian Islands as part of their sovereign state! Or Mexico showing FL or the SW States as part of their country.

We settled those claims long ago by giving them both a sound kicking.

PS The name of the country is Macedonia not FYROM. Silly Greeks.

	22-10-2002 20:09									#155
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Since I just came back from Greece I have to comment on this.

One of the things which struck me when looking at the statues of all their Gods/Generals/whatever is that none of them looked Greek. I mean, take your average Greek and stand them next to one of these statues and you will notice that they look racially different.

In fact the statues look much more northern European than anything else (although that correspondance isn't 100% either). Thinking about it more, I noticed that Greeks look a lot more like ethnic turks than than I had ever realised, and I was also struck by their modern culture, which seems rather turk influenced too.

This is hardly surprising considering Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire for so long.

I don't think this is a bad thing - their women are very pretty - but I think it makes it a bit rich to claim ancient Greece as their own.

	22-10-2002 20:15									#156
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OOOHhhh....

quote: In fact the statues look much more northern European than anything else (although that correspondance isn't 100% either). Thinking about it more, I noticed that Greeks look a lot more like ethnic turks than than I had ever realised, and I was also struck by their modern culture, which seems rather turk influenced too. This is hardly surprising considering Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire for so long.

twenty years ban for this

	22-10-2002 20:43									#157
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just like the average american looks like abe lincoln

	22-10-2002 20:52									#158
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i'd like also to note that today's french dont look like asterix and obelix
something happened there....

	22-10-2002 22:32									#159
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the post is messy, I went offline and put several replies in one

quote: 1) population exchanges and the league of nations: a) "macedonians" are "expelled", greeks are "transplanted" b) the exchange under the Neuilly Treaty was voluntary. more details here http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm#31

'the exchange' was ethnic cleansing. it was agreed between governments, not 'voluntary'

quote: 3) 1976-74 junta: of course a dictatorship had no place in the council of europe! meanwhile "colonization" of the "aegean macedonia" and city name changes continue after 70 years(one would think this process should be over by that time)

one would think not. after at least two big ethic cleansing processes, there are still some

Macedonians in Greece left till this day. and still the hellenisation is ongoing.

some points from the page I linked to:

quote: 1920 Greek Ministry Of Internal Affairs publishes booklet: "Advice On The Change Of The Names Of Municipalities And Villages" in Aegean Macedonia. 1925 76 names of Macedonian villages and towns in the Aegean Macedonia Hellenized since 1918 by Greek authorities.

does this not show that hellen names, even if they existed long time ago, were not anymore used by

the native people (Greeks and what was left of Macedonians both), so that central authority had to

rediscover them again?

quote: peace? 1) even at the time of the most craziest claims of FYROM, in the their first couple of years of indepedence, never did Greece threaten with use of force

we all know EU wouldnt finance that, so you couldnt even if you wanted
and I have no doubts it was seriousely contemplated in greece. What with consultations with

Milosevic and greek-serbian confederation

quote: 2) despite the remaining issue of the name(they've dropped the use of the vergina star(see my avatar) in their flag and more importantly the "liberational" claims in their constitution) Greece is the biggest investor in FYROM so not to sound overly patriotic, but me thinks Greece has handled this pretty peacefully

greece has handled the situation (1990-) like a jelous *****, pardon my french

if macedonians decided to play that game they would block traffic for the Olympics, and as paiktis

mentioned, few well placed bombs would do a miracle for greek tourism. they have a history of

terrorist organizations too

Pioneer:

quote: Greece though knew that Tito called the province now known as FYROM Macedonia. Heck, even older Olympic Air maps had that place called Macedonia. Back then nobody really cared and us contemporary Greeks short sighted as we always are did not give a damn. Later one, in the beginning of the 90s it became again a topic of "National" interest.

is it true then that Greece used to refer to territories as 'norhtern greece' or some such, and

that claim on the very name of Macedonia is very recent? is it true that in a period until 20 years

ago greeks avoided and even despised the name Macedonia?

quote: I guess Bush would nuke them to the ground and ask questions later! Now that's where Greece differs and in whole did and has done a good job with the whole situation.

If you seriousely (I see no smilies) think nuclear bombs would/should fly over some maps, you have

a problem with reality.

quote: People in States have never really felt threatened by a country that borders them nor have they ever had a history such as most European countries which burden their present. Don't take me wrong I envy you for that but on the other side the same fact gives you a more naive and oversimplified look on other problems. Thus, you do not always understand to what extend something like this may affect somebody.

Well, I do not understand Greek behaviour and I am from Croatia; extreme nationalism and xenophobia

are not exactly unknown terms to me
actually I do understand, but it is completely irrational, and it is evil. In EU, it is unthinkable

and it should be inexcusable.

Unfortunately the few Macedonian posters who post on apolyton do not visit the OT. The side effect

of this is that we dont get to hear the Macedonian point of view here presented by a native, which

would cetrainly be interesting.

I have read some of the FAQ MarkG uses to bac his arguments. I find that FAQ to be pure propaganda.

For one, it doesnt answer frequently asked questions with truths.

if I am taking a slightly pro-macedonian view, that is because their online sources sounded more

convincing to me. Feel free to prove me wrong.

now, questions for the resident greeks:

1. do you agree that all transfers of population are tragic to the populations involved? that it is

ethnic cleansing, and it is a bad practice? (it is a criminal offense you know)

2. did greece conduct a policy of ethnic cleansing against Macedonians in the past?

3. did greece conduct forced assimilations on Macedonians in the past?

4. does greece still do that?

I believe answer to all these questions is yes

more from the FAQ:

quote: 1) The use of Slavic names for Greek cities instead of the Greek ones (they prefer to call Thessaloniki, Solun, to call Kastoria , Kostur, to call Florina, Lerin, to call Edessa, Voden etc), beyond the usual changes that the translation of various names from one language to another requires. The use of Slavic toponyms is intended to cast a doubt on the greekness of the various places in Macedonia.

Gorica (Gorizia), Trst (Trieste), Udine (Udizia), ...
More usurpations of Greek teritory? no, slavic names for cities in northern Italy, near Slovenia

and Croatia

did Italy ask of Slovenia to be named FYROS? no, italians are reasonable foks



Slovenia Vs Italy is actually a nice comparison to Greece vs. Macedonia

Slovenians in Italy have full minority rights, including schooling, two-language names of streets

and institutions, border passing with only personal ID and no passport, etc.

compare to Greece, where there are no Macedonians at all, see a quote from the disastorous FAQ:

quote: Skopjan minority claims. How many supposedly "Macedonians" of the Skopjan type are in Greece? Well, the Skopjans and their supporters cannot agree to a reasonable figure. Once Radio Belgrade (Dec 14, 1950) claimed this number was 250,000. On August 28, 1953 Yugopress claimed it was 120,000. The current claim depends on the weather :-), the mood of the es- timator, and the outcome of some (probably highly biased) random number generator :-) :-).

ha. ha. ha. very funny. how is someone from belgrade suposed to count the Macedonians in greece?
how many greek censuses had the option 'Macedonian' in them? none? well that explains who the joke

is on I think

more from the FAQ:

quote: 2) The use of the term "Aegean Macedonia" (a term invented and used by Skopjans and by people of similar desires) instead of say the more acceptable and less suspicious "Greek Macedonia" to identify Macedonia, Greece (that is the region called Macedonia in Greece). This can be interpreted as an attempt to present this part as a member of a whole (usually called "Greater Ma- cedonia") yet "unliberated".

if Greeks want to be consistent, "Aegean FYROM" should bother them. 'Aegean Macedonia' should be

perfectly ok.

quote: 3) [From [7]]: A calendar for the year 1981 was published in Skopje

if there was any reason involved, a calendar published by who knows who in 1981 would not be a base

for actions of greece in 1991. I am betting the circulation of this calendar under 1000 copies

quote: Maps depicting Macedonia, Greece, as part of the Republic of Skopje have been published recently (November 1992) in Skopje ac- cording to various reports.

I work with publishing firm. I ll go now and publish maps of croatia with finland in it. maybe I

can trap finland to declare war on us and occupy us

quote: 4)[From [7]]: In 1973 a large size picture book was circulated in many languages which shows "the immigrants" from the other two sectors of "Macedonia"

alright! we are going further back in history! I wander what suspicuous books were published around

discovery of the wheel

quote: 10) End of 1960: The Government in Belgrade adopted a law that officially recognised as time served to the Yugoslavian Armed Forces the time served by Greek Communist guerillas in Greek- communist organizations, other than EAM-ELAS, fighting against the Greek government during the greek civil war 1944-1949. Par- ticipation in EAM-ELAS (1941-1949) has been recognised since 1954.

I believe ex-yu did that for quite a number of countries (I can check if you want)
Does time recognised for serving in soviet forces demonstrate yugoslavian claims on soviet

territory? or italian or french?

quote: This is just a small sample of the Skopjan provocations.

enough to reveal the paranoid mindset needed to take them seriousely.




AH

quote: 1994 Extremists in Australia's Greek Community burn two Macedonian churches, after Australian recognition of Macedonia.

they bring their madness with them wherever they go

	22-10-2002 22:39									#160
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I tried to fix the line breaks but the forum didnt allow me to edit the post
enjoy the beauty of notepad text formatting

	22-10-2002 22:55									#161
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quote: 'the exchange' was ethnic cleansing. it was agreed between governments, not 'voluntary'

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/neuilly.html

quote: ARTICLE 45. Within a period of two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Bulgarian nationals over 18 years of age and habitually resident in the territories assigned to Greece in accordance with the present Treaty will be entitled to opt for Bulgarian nationality. Option by a husband will cover his wife and option by parents will cover their children under 18 years of age. Persons who have exercised the above right to opt must within the succeeding twelve months transfer their place of residence to the State for which they have opted.

this sounds voluntary to me

quote: if I am taking a slightly pro-macedonian view, that is because their online sources sounded more convincing to me.

what sources are that? you just quote a single page without any references

i wont respond to the rest of the post until you provide some references to the claims....

	22-10-2002 23:00									#162
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Aigai is in modern FYROM, isn't it? Did anyone claim that Alexander was a Slavic person?

	22-10-2002 23:05									#163
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Aigai is in Macedonia,Greece, 15km from my father's village
http://www.culture.gr/2/21/211/21117a/e211qa04.html

	22-10-2002 23:15									#164
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Aigai? The link you provided Marko did not work!

So long...

	22-10-2002 23:17									#165
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Then to hell with FYROM!

	22-10-2002 23:23									#166
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didnt work?
try this one
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/H...ia/en/C1.1.html

	22-10-2002 23:38									#167
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Where and when did slavs originated?

	23-10-2002 00:13									#168
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Oh Vergina! Sorry for my ignorance! That's about 10km from my village!!!

So long...

	23-10-2002 00:49									#169
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Apparently the following song is popular when British teams play Greek teams.

"You can stick your Elgin Marbles up your arse.
You can stick your Elgin Marbles up your arse.
You can stick your Elgin Marbles
you can stick your Elgin Marbles
you can stick your Elgin Marbles up your arse."

It's a disgrace. It's quite funny, though.

	23-10-2002 00:54									#170
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never heard of it....

	23-10-2002 03:04									#171
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Coincidently, a British team will play with a Greek team tomorrow.

But I guess that Olympiakos will not get any marbles up their ass by ManU. 4 or 5 goals perhaps, but no marbles...

	23-10-2002 12:28									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Since I just came back from Greece I have to comment on this. One of the things which struck me when looking at the statues of all their Gods/Generals/whatever is that none of them looked Greek. I mean, take your average Greek and stand them next to one of these statues and you will notice that they look racially different. In fact the statues look much more northern European than anything else (although that correspondance isn't 100% either). Thinking about it more, I noticed that Greeks look a lot more like ethnic turks than than I had ever realised, and I was also struck by their modern culture, which seems rather turk influenced too. This is hardly surprising considering Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire for so long. I don't think this is a bad thing - their women are very pretty - but I think it makes it a bit rich to claim ancient Greece as their own.

paiktis22 asked my to post a response to my comment since he can't ( Is he banned??)

quote: paiktis22's response The ancient Greek statues were made after models of «perfect» males/females. Their dimensions and characterists exist in Greece but of course not in every Greek person. The icons and images on the vases which provide much more information (colour, shpae etc) and are muich more numerous clearly resemble Greeks (or south Europeans in General). Black hair, Tanned skin etc. That does not mean that modern Greeks are 100% anceint Greeks (who can claim that about any nation, even "newer" ones) but the ressemblance is indeed striking both in scultpures and in vases' icons. The culture of modern Greece IS heavily influenced by the Ottomans and most of its «ottoman» elements are considered big drawbacks. (public services inadequacy, clientelle politics etc etc)

	25-10-2002 20:57									#173
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It is true. Most (if not all) modern Greek cutural elements are directly linked to Turkish ones.

SO WHAT?
DOES THAT MAKES US LESS GREEKS? Modern France is based on the Roman Empire and its customs. So i guess Frenchmen have no culture of their own.....

And paiktis i don't think that public services inadequacy and bad politics have their base on the Ottoman Empire. Rather it is a Greek "innovation".

It is my firm belief that violence has solved more problems than it has created. Therefore we should make our claims backed by (if not implemented) by force.

	26-10-2002 00:12									#174
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quote: It is my firm belief that violence has solved more problems than it has created. Therefore we should make our claims backed by (if not implemented) by force.

your firm belief is wrong

	26-10-2002 02:45									#175
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Why?.

	26-10-2002 06:03									#176
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why do you think we end wars with negotiations, and not end negotiations with wars?

I could explain it to you in more depth, but that would be threadjacking, the topic is Macedonians

	26-10-2002 22:14									#177
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Skopjans.

Or Slavomacedonians.

	26-10-2002 23:58									#178
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I think the west frieze marbles(I won't deign to call them the Elgin marbles) should be returned to Greece, its where they belong.
The analogy would be if the Nazis occupied Britain and the (say) Americans did a deal with them to buy and deport Stonehenge. Its a disgrace.


Besides I think the Parthenon should be restored, what do greeks thing of that?

"Argghhhh.." The real last words of Constantine XII Dragash.

	27-10-2002 02:17									#179
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Palaiologue was his name. Dragasis i think was the family name of his wife.

Upon seeing the Turks entering from the breaches he cried and prayed to God to protect his people and the Empire. Then he cried "All who want to die, follow me!!!". Many did.

What happened next is a matter of debate. After much slaughter the Emperor was left alone facing the Turks. Upon seeing a Turk raising his sword to take his head he cried "Can not there a Christian be found to take off my head?". He then fell, stricken by the Turk.

Other versions claim the Emperor was slain from behind etc....

Whatever his final words were, they certainly were not "Argghhh...".

This man was the last hero of Greece, it is not right to demean his valor like that.

	27-10-2002 02:21									#180
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About the Parthenon:

You are certainly right. Unfortunately the Greek goverment does not see things your way. They use the Acropolis for festivals and stuff, slowly destroying it in the process.