18-10-2002 20:39									#61
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Oh no. Not another thread about this.

Nationalism is a bad thing. You can see why.

If we had made the Balkan federation, we wouldn't be discussing about it.

I just want to remind to everybody that 90 years ago, Macedonia was a united area, where Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Slavs and Jews were living together. The Turkish rule had to be overthrown somehow of course, but dividing the place up with bloody wars and exchange of populations was not right.

	18-10-2002 20:44									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin That was a very 'Greek' way to interpret that. The 'normal' way should be to acknowledge the absurdity of the entire debate.

of course it's absurd. macedonians were greek, go find another name for fyromians

	18-10-2002 20:46									#63
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quote: Originally posted by axi I just want to remind to everybody that 90 years ago, Macedonia was a united area, where Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Slavs and Jews were living together. The Turkish rule had to be overthrown somehow of course, but dividing the place up with bloody wars and exchange of populations was not right.

dont worry axi, we'll have a single world goverment soon anyway, and your dream will become a reality

	18-10-2002 20:55									#64
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Yes, I'm totally with you Mark. I also think that all Swedes that can't trace their roots back to the east-central parts of present day Sweden for 2000 years should be banned from calling themselves Swedes. Obviously people that live on the continent of america that can't do the same to pre columbus days should call themselves Europeans and africans, not americans.

	18-10-2002 20:55									#65
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That'll ruin international football.

	18-10-2002 21:05									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I also think that all Swedes that can't trace their roots back to the east-central parts of present day Sweden for 2000 years should be banned from calling themselves Swedes.

your analogy fails dramatically to make some sort of sense

	18-10-2002 23:58									#67
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flag changed to express solidarity with Macedonian people

	19-10-2002 00:03									#68
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Macedonia should be renamed Usurpia.

	19-10-2002 00:06									#69
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This thread should be reported to the admins for it's sillyness.

	19-10-2002 00:10									#70
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Ming is too scared is to close it.

	19-10-2002 00:15									#71
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quote: Macedonia should be renamed Usurpia

and greece should be renamed Paranoia

	19-10-2002 01:22									#72
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion quote: Macedonia should be renamed Usurpia and greece should be renamed Paranoia

Or Turkey.

	19-10-2002 01:55									#73
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion flag changed to express solidarity with Macedonian people

It's funny how the flag list here goes

...
Luxembourg
Macao
FYROM
Madagascar
Madeira
...

I think someone changed the name...

	19-10-2002 02:49									#74
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Have we mentioned the fact that we're keeping the Elgin Marbles yet?

	19-10-2002 12:47									#75
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a recent survey in the UK showed that 40% support (in the UK) the return of the parthenon marbles and 15% opposed them
if it was done under some conditions(as a long term loan or if there were no further demands by greece for other stolen) the support was 55% and the opposition only 7%


and here is something nice

quote: Dull is the eye that will not weep to see Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed By British hands, which it had best behoved To guard those relics ne'er to be restored. Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved, And once again thy hapless bosom gored, And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred! Lord Byron, "Childe Harold"

	19-10-2002 12:50									#76
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40% of Britons think that "The Sun" reports news and were just annoyed that the models on the marbles didn't have larger baps. They're staying put.

However they have been renamed "The former Greek possession of the Elgin Marbles".

	19-10-2002 16:26									#77
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The FYROMians will cease being a nation in a few years anyway (divided between Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians) so this discussion is meaningless.

But since they currently exist....

Most are of the Bulgarian race and the rest Albanians. They speak Bulgarian and read Bulgarian newspapers. They are essentially vassals of Bulgaria, with Bulgarian troops guaranteing their independance. It is no wonder that an economically weak Bulgaria gave huge military and financial aid to FYROM at their time of trouble. A new Albanian resurgence is imminent anyway and their weak military won't survive for long without Bulgarian aid. But Bulgarian aid could be a casus belli for Greece.

Their historical claims are absurd. They descent from Slavs when they flooded the balkans around 600AD. They even have the classic Slavic accent with overpronanciation of the "L". And Slavic faces. The "anybody can claim whatever he wants" argument is tottaly crap.

Thereby i declare myself a Scot and claim that Robert the Bruce was born in the Scotish town of Thessalonica.

	19-10-2002 16:41									#78
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* Rasbelin wonders when the Turks will get back a small city called "Salonika" (AKA Thessaloniki) and the rest of Macedonia they lost in the WWI.

	19-10-2002 16:49									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin * Rasbelin wonders when the Turks will get back a small city called "Salonika" (AKA Thessaloniki) and the rest of Macedonia they lost in the WWI.

*onefoot wanders what will happen when Turkey joins EU and 10 million Turks get accross to find a job in Greece

	19-10-2002 17:01									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG in 1910 there was no FYROM her parents were Albanians...

So this must be back in the heady days of the Great Albanian Empire

	19-10-2002 17:04									#81
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quote: Most are of the Bulgarian race and the rest Albanians. They speak Bulgarian and read Bulgarian newspapers. They are essentially vassals of Bulgaria, with Bulgarian troops guaranteing their independance.

Bulgarians guaranteeing their independance from whom?

quote: It is no wonder that an economically weak Bulgaria gave huge military and financial aid to FYROM at their time of trouble.

while wealthy greece sit back and chuckle?

quote: A new Albanian resurgence is imminent anyway and their weak military won't survive for long without Bulgarian aid.

they got a lot of weapons from Ukraine afaik, and some from croatia too.

quote: But Bulgarian aid could be a casus belli for Greece.

in other words: greece showed great understanding of delicate balkan situation after the breakup of SFRJ. this understanding was demonstrated by sabotaging Macedonia in international politics and blockading their acess to Solun (thesaloniki) port, economic sanctions and whatnot, which greatly helped peace efforts, because as we know poor people are less likely to go to war because they spend all their time finding something to eat.

quote: The FYROMians will cease being a nation in a few years anyway (divided between Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians) so this discussion is meaningless.

official greek policy somewhat changed from sabotaging to cooperation, but it is great to see 'peaceful' ideas still live with the people well 3/4 posters on apolyton anyway

	19-10-2002 19:20									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin * Rasbelin wonders when the Turks will get back a small city called "Salonika" (AKA Thessaloniki) and the rest of Macedonia they lost in the WWI.

We LIBERATED it in the first Balkan War (5 October 1912) after beating the Bulgars to it by a day(26th October 1912).

They will never get it back, quite simply because they don't want it (too many Greeks living there now). As we will never get Constantinople back.( 16.000.000 hostile Turks will be added to a country of 10.000.000).

	19-10-2002 19:35									#83
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To Vetlegion:

1) Albania
2) We have granted them aid, and so has Turkey but Bulgaria considers them a satelite state with the propability of anexxing it in the near future and thus gives them aid disproportianely with its economic power
3) Yes plus 50 T-55 tanks from Bulgaria and some planes from Turkey
4) It is within Greek interests that this "state" survives since it acts as a buffer zone. All those immigrants from Kosovo would have ended up in Greece instead of FYROM.
5) Most Greeks are still patriots in contrary to the American-European lackeys of PASOK(the goverment).

	19-10-2002 19:42									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos We LIBERATED it in the first Balkan War (5 October 1912) after beating the Bulgars to it by a day(26th October 1912).

Correct, except that I more like refered to the fact that the end of the Great War sealed the changed borders on the Balkan as the Ottoman Empire had to surrender. But the territory had indeed changed ownership earlier.

quote: They will never get it back, quite simply because they don't want it (too many Greeks living there now). As we will never get Constantinople back.( 16.000.000 hostile Turks will be added to a country of 10.000.000).

I know. Pun intended.

	19-10-2002 20:50									#85
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Greece is the biggest investor of Skopjie (screw FYROM).

Also it gave it war helicopters to fight the albanians but it failed since the skopjian slavs were not trained and the albanians were hiding inside the cities.

The same exchange of populations of 1800's can be done with Constantinople BTW.

	19-10-2002 20:52									#86
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The embargo destroyed Skopjie's already fragile economy as was intended. However medicins and food were excluded from the embargo for humanitarian reasons.


The embargo forced the SKopjian slavs to change their flag to something resembling a mickey mouse cartoon, change their constitution which called for an invasion in Greece and blocked their name recognition.

Up untill recently the skpjian slavs were ruled by the nationalistic party which is the cause for its troubles.

Neighboors of Greece should be kept either

1) weak and desperate if hostile
2) prosperous if friendly.

	19-10-2002 20:53									#87
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We are not Finlandization = bending backwards to satisfy our enemies


Finlandization.. what a dirty term

it means not having control of your country, like FInland

	19-10-2002 20:56									#88
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There is a theory that Papandreou just did the embargo for internal consumption and that the skopjian slavs would have agreed to all those changes under an accord with Mitsotakis. Which was also offered half of Skopjie from Milosevic according to some rumours.

	19-10-2002 20:59									#89
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Also Skopjian slavs should be taken to the court of Hague for burning our flag.

Ungrateful bastards. If not for us they wouldn't even have a pot to piss in.

oh

	19-10-2002 21:03									#90
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A fine example is Bulgaria. It has friendly relations with Greece and now it will become a member of NATO and pretty soon the EU.

You get what you give.