20-10-2002 17:59									#121
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quote: it means not having control of your country, like FInland

Hey, at least we're not like Greece. If we were like Greece, we'd be hysterically afraid of our eastern neighbor and trying to prove our manhood by bitching about something completely unimportant like Norway having a province called 'Finnmark'.

	20-10-2002 19:07									#122
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this is what we do all day long.

	21-10-2002 07:57									#123
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I think the brutal Finns should stop oppressing the native Saami and give them independence now!!

	21-10-2002 10:21									#124
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG the issue is BBC reports not knowing how to write about serious issues....

Its not a serious issue.

	21-10-2002 10:49									#125
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Ok, I can see calling it Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), but then I want to see Greece called Former Turkish Principality of Greece (FTPOG) .

	21-10-2002 11:05									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ok, I can see calling it Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), but then I want to see Greece called Former Turkish Principality of Greece (FTPOG) .

good one Imran, one of your best

	21-10-2002 12:43									#127
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imran, that's really old....
try finding some new jokes....

	21-10-2002 12:47									#128
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Spoken like a true FTPOGer

	21-10-2002 12:54									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu trying to prove our manhood by *****ing about something completely unimportant like Norway having a province called 'Finnmark'.

you're describing the fyromian case now

	21-10-2002 13:45									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker I think the brutal Finns should stop oppressing the native Saami and give them independence now!!

*BIG SIGH*

Since when have you campaigned for the Saami?

Anyway, independece to all of Macedonia (FYROM and the part of Macedonia located in Greece) could be an interesting solution too.

	21-10-2002 13:46									#131
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It seems you people from America have absolutely no sense of national identity. In Europe things are different. States are still nation-states. Therefore when another "state" fabricates history another's sense of national identity is insulted.

Men fought and died for ideals such as "Macedonia" and "Hellas", an outlaw state can't simply claim it's descendancy from ancient Macedonia and believes we should feel okay about it.

My great great grandfather fought at the Macedonian rebellion of 1878, so why don't you "liberal" people go tell him about your views of Macedonia.

	21-10-2002 13:50									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos It seems you people from America have absolutely no sense of national identity. In Europe things are different. States are still nation-states. Therefore when another "state" fabricates history another's sense of national identity is insulted. Men fought and died for ideals such as "Macedonia" and "Hellas", an outlaw state can't simply claim it's descendancy from ancient Macedonia and believes we should feel okay about it. My great great grandfather fought at the Macedonian rebellion of 1878, so why don't you "liberal" people go tell him about your views of Macedonia.

Isn't he dead

	21-10-2002 13:52									#133
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After you ask him go ask my great grandfather, Demetrius, who fought in the Macedonian Struggle of 1904-1908. You see "liberal" Finns our ancestors have been fighting their whole lives for a Greek Macedonia cleansed from Bulgars and Slavs. And why was that?

It was because they knew in their hearts that Macedonia was Greek.

	21-10-2002 13:53									#134
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Isn't he dead

Yes. It was a rhetorical question.

	21-10-2002 13:56									#135
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Why are you 'cleansing' people?

	21-10-2002 14:03									#136
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If we didn't do it they would do it to us first.

	21-10-2002 14:11									#137
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That sounds like a good reason. Or not.

	21-10-2002 14:20									#138
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So why should the Greeks be the one doing ethnic cleansing? Nationalism, my friend.

Palaiologos,

I'm just playing with this theoretical idea of a sovereign Macedonia. It's just a mindgame that you shouldn't take too seriously.

	22-10-2002 05:20									#139
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is info on this page accurate?

http://www.makedonija.info/aegean-chrono.html

it would suggest truth about Macedonians is completely different then what the local Greeks suggest.

if it is not accurate, can you disprove point by point?

	22-10-2002 05:55									#140
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hmm this is mostly generic claims ("Greece refers to", for example. where? who? in which documents?)
some more specific answers...

1) population exchanges and the league of nations:
a) "macedonians" are "expelled", greeks are "transplanted"
b) the exchange under the Neuilly Treaty was voluntary. more details here http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm#31

2) city names: http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm#18

3) 1976-74 junta: of course a dictatorship had no place in the council of europe! meanwhile "colonization" of the "aegean macedonia" and city name changes continue after 70 years(one would think this process should be over by that time)

	22-10-2002 07:29									#141
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Why do you care about this so much Mark?

The ancient Greeks thought the Macedonians were uncouth and uncivilised and little better than barbarians who destroyed the Greek states and the dream of Hellas.

Of course then Alexander comes along and everyone wants to claim him

Don't you think for the sake of peace in the Balkans people should give up these childish historical disputes?

	22-10-2002 09:50									#142
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It's because Alexander was the only guy from that region worth a bucket of spit. It's hero envy .

	22-10-2002 11:30									#143
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Ah not just English blokes... most of the world already 'knows' that you should have revised the history while you still could calling him Alexander the Greek ... it is too late to complain now. Ok who could have guessed that a country will arise that will call themselves Macedonia again... but that's life... or history now too. I guess it would be easier if they were in South America and claiming that they are the descendants of Alexander :

I haven't read the whole thread. But you are partly right. Greece though knew that Tito called the province now known as FYROM Macedonia. Heck, even older Olympic Air maps had that place called Macedonia. Back then nobody really cared and us contemporary Greeks short sighted as we always are did not give a damn. Later one, in the beginning of the 90s it became again a topic of "National" interest. But the handling on the Greek side does not change the fact that he was Greek. Actually BBC had a special on him a few months ago where a reporter followed his footsteps form Vergina and Pella to the East. He always refered to him as Greek.

Anyway, Marko it will not change things by getting upset about every little article or news piece. Lots of people have been, are and will be ignorant and/or serve special interests. But however they twisted it is wrong.

So long...

	22-10-2002 11:37									#144
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion quote: Macedonia should be renamed Usurpia and greece should be renamed Paranoia

A little OT but I like when English speaking people try to use Greek words!? Same goes for Germans and many others!

So long...

Maybe we should do like the Americans patend every word and charge the languag/country a fee everytime they use the word?!

	22-10-2002 11:45									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Sure, it might be wrong of the former macedonian govement to make the claims they did on history (although Greece should stop living on what might have happend two milleniums ago) and what the brittish sports press wrote was garbage.

Well it's more like the unlucky son that didn't really make anything out of his life despite the family having a great tradition. It's the lack of accomplishment of contemporary Greeks that does that. But we will never be greater than them if we keep living in the past. Although, I must admit that there has been some progress lately.

So long....

	22-10-2002 12:09									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Why do you care about this so much Mark?

unfortunately i dont know much about australian history in order to give you an example...

quote: Don't you think for the sake of peace in the Balkans people should give up these childish historical disputes?

peace?
1) even at the time of the most craziest claims of FYROM, in the their first couple of years of indepedence, never did Greece threaten with use of force
2) despite the remaining issue of the name(they've dropped the use of the vergina star(see my avatar) in their flag and more importantly the "liberational" claims in their constitution) Greece is the biggest investor in FYROM
so not to sound overly patriotic, but me thinks Greece has handled this pretty peacefully

	22-10-2002 12:11									#147
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If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em.

Very American of you.

	22-10-2002 12:20									#148
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they still havent sold out though


maybe we should go the turkish way(invade and spend the next 30 years discussing on whether or not to move out, despite UN decisions)

Last edited by MarkG on 22-10-2002 at 12:25

	22-10-2002 12:38									#149
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Nah. [If] they sell, they will be happy. If you take, they will never forget. Up the bid.

Last edited by notyoueither on 22-10-2002 at 12:48

	22-10-2002 12:44									#150
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG unfortunately i dont know much about australian history in order to give you an example...

So may examples - we never get the credit for anything

quote: peace? 1) even at the time of the most craziest claims of FYROM, in the their first couple of years of indepedence, never did Greece threaten with use of force 2) despite the remaining issue of the name(they've dropped the use of the vergina star(see my avatar) in their flag and more importantly the "liberational" claims in their constitution) Greece is the biggest investor in FYROM so not to sound overly patriotic, but me thinks Greece has handled this pretty peacefully

I thought they only called themselves Macedonia because they didn't know what to call themselves

They don't seriously claim to be a successor state to the ancient macedonians do they?