18-01-2003 09:05									#391
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Yup iron is important. But GS does not know where it is. If we make a bee line for a southern city - GS may get suspicious. Although - not much they can do about it.

I see a couple of possible scenarios.

Next city - chokepoint - (which completes the road by the way) (and is what GS expects us to do). I think we should stick to this. It gets us another city soon - and although it won't be a stellar producer early, it has strategic value.

Then - after that - well - we go for iron on the east coast - I vote for Witt's choice - it only takes one city. And lets face it - in the early days - before the jungle is cleared - these are not going to be stellar or high-growth cities.

OR

We go for the fish/wheat site - as explained in the previous chat map discussion. Not the square right between them, but the one to the SE. This will result in a high growth city for settler and worker production. And in one expansion, will get the iron on the west coast. If the east coast site - Witt's - goes in next, it will look simply like controlled growth - and should net us both irons.

I like this option better. The what-fish is clearly the better site - and if we go for the other now - they will know what's up.

If we sacrifice growth now, and the most efficient expansion we can achieve - to grab the iron on the east coast - we will not have the civ growth or production to do much once we have it.

I am clearly opposed to your approach jon - as it will take a lot of tough roading, and gives two cities which will not be very productive, other than the second which will get iron.

So. I advocate - city #3 - chokepoint. City #4 fish wheat City # 5 - east coast iron as per Witt's red dot. I maybe can be convinced to flip cities #4 and 5. But I still think this is the better way.

The road network - is fairly efficient as well. Either way.

I think this will let us have our iron (both of them), and eat it too.

	18-01-2003 12:39									#392
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If our settler production was faster I would definately agree with that.

But I'm concerned about our slow growth. I suppose if we don't trade Iron Working to GS it won't matter. We can wait to found that second city site. They are unlikely to build there.

Basically I'm 50/50 on this issue. Eventually GS is going to wonder when we are finished with Iron Working. I'm not sure what to say about that yet

	18-01-2003 13:16									#393
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tell them we will trade it when they get alphabet

Jon Miller

	18-01-2003 13:35									#394
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that's true.

If they just started it, they should be at least 16 turns away I would think.

	18-01-2003 19:42									#395
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Yup - and then when they get Alphabet - we can still choose not to trade.

It would be nice to know if those are the only two sources of iron. 'Cause if they are, and we can get cities on both of them - then we can trade it anyway.

And they don't need to know we have it now. We can probaly drag it out another 12 turns or so - the original research path - and claim that we are not generating much gold nor beekers - that's why we are so slow.

	18-01-2003 21:04									#396
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I have sent via e-mail a recent screen shot with possible city sites marked.

My proposals -

1. Chokepoint City - GS is expecting this - it will maintain the low-tension environment. It will join the road. The drawback is we could use a city further south more than one right there. Also note regarding chokepoint city - after the one grassland square to the south-east, there are no other two-food producing tiles. It will be a slow grower. Shield and commerce prodcution will be OK, though.

2/3 . The next two proposed sites - to claim the mountain-jungle area - and the iron. I am proposing the fish-what first. It will be a high food producer - with the wheat tile producing three food and the fish two- and we need that for additional settlers and workers. We will need to beef up its shield production, probably by mining the wheat square. If we opt to bypass #1 now, I would vote for this site. And then the site on the east coast - as per Witt's suggestion.

I have also drawn in the proposed road. Once the road is in for the wheat fish site, we only need one more tile roaded (is that a word) to get to the third site.

4. This should generate discussion. I suggest we claim the grasslands on the other side of the mountain. It has another incense, the whales (after one growth), and solidifies our hold on the iron. This will be seen as being somewhat aggressive - and there may be a good chance that the site is gone by the time we get there. But it would be a good site - and has a number of shielded grassland squares.

5. Speaking of shielded grasslands - c site number 5 claims a number of them. It also completes our claim on the area - and is an area that should be reasonably defensible.

6. Is just, IMHO, a really good site - but we can use it as a back fill. I also think North estonia could accomodate one, or two more cities, but they clearly are not priority right now.

That would provide 6-8 cities - and then if we get testy with GS, and the Golden Age kicks in, it will be helpful.

The decision tree for the first few cities (you can tell I'm a manager - can't you. ) goes something like this.

A - yes to chokepoint city, then #2 (wheat), then #3, then we discuss.

B - yes to chokepoint city, then #2 (but the east coast), then # 3 wheat, then we discuss.

C - no to chokepoint city, then #2 (wheat) is next, then #3, then we discuss

D - no to chokepoint city, then #2 (east coast), then #3 wheat, then we discuss.

I'm undecided between - A and C. The chokepoint next or not is the tough decison.

Last edited by Beta on 18-01-2003 at 21:42

	18-01-2003 22:20									#397
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The main reason I see for founding chokepoint right now would be to hook-up the road network - since the city tile currently doesn't have a road on it....and GS is expecting the city to be founded at any time now.

Concerning the next city site (either Wheat or East Coast), I believe we can get a road built to the East Coast site (and the Iron) faster than the West Coast (Wheat) site...even though the Wheat site would have a higher "food" production...

	19-01-2003 02:08									#398
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I played the turn

I left it so that the worker in the south can road to either source of iron

I roaded the worker in the north

I had the warrior in the south follow the worker down

I looked at the tech rate, we don't want to be losing a gold a turn do we? (would move it down to 19 turns)

Jon Miller

	19-01-2003 03:50									#399
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Thanks for the update jon. Do we want to let Lux know we have it down to 19 turns? - and I agree with you - no loss per turn.

The city debate continues - -- Witt - I understand your point - but we will not be able to build many Immortals right away. I don't see the big push, now that we know we CAN get to it.

And I am worried about GS building on the other site - well - not much of a chance of that really. Forget that point. To me it is a function of a) growth and b) where we can build that will seem 'obvious' to GS. If we build in the other spot - we would only do it for one reason - and then we will be pressured again about the trade.

And I can go with chokepoint city next. I suggest that when the worker gets those mines built, that he start on an irrigation project to bring irrigation across the plains and down to chokepoint. This should help with its growth situation.

	19-01-2003 06:02									#400
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I think no chokepoint. We have the warriors. We want to get as must of South Estonia as soon as possible.

	19-01-2003 11:54									#401
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edit: disregard. I misread.

	19-01-2003 21:42									#402
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OK - I could start a poll - but with 5 of us that seems silly. Considering two have already voted.

Should Chokepoint City be the next built:

Yes - Witt

No - Sky

Yet to vote - jon, Diss, Beta.

I will give it some further thought and register my vote shortly.

Should we call it Chokepoint City, or Elipolis.

	19-01-2003 22:29									#403
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Yes.

	19-01-2003 22:30									#404
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quote: Should we call it Chokepoint City, or Elipolis.

Well... Good question. *cough*, *cough*, I think we should seriously consider the issue *coughelipoliscough*.

	19-01-2003 23:33									#405
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I'm still undecided

I think we have 3 turns when it is done. I say build on the chokepoint. But if we see any settler activity by GS then we should consider building on the east coast or on the wheat/fish site.

And I do propose building on the wheat/fish site before building on the east coast. Again this will depend on GS settler activity. If they are encroaching we may need to alter our plans. But GS is likely to go fro the wheat/fish site as soon as possible since they can see that, but not the iron.

	19-01-2003 23:43									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Eli quote: Should we call it Chokepoint City, or Elipolis. Well... Good question. *cough*, *cough*, I think we should seriously consider the issue *coughelipoliscough*.

ELIPOLIS it is.

Eli - you break me up. Don't stay away too long.

Glad you could check in. Take care.

	19-01-2003 23:45									#407
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think we have 3 turns when it is done. I say build on the chokepoint. But if we see any settler activity by GS then we should consider building on the east coast or on the wheat/fish site. And I do propose building on the wheat/fish site before building on the east coast. Again this will depend on GS settler activity. If they are encroaching we may need to alter our plans. But GS is likely to go fro the wheat/fish site as soon as possible since they can see that, but not the iron.

Yes - I think you have summed it up perfectly. I am leaning toward yes - but the considerations you have mentioned should take precedent. We will soon see.

	20-01-2003 00:30									#408
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I too vote for Elipolis.

	20-01-2003 01:58									#409
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Can the next city be called Coruscant, or Corellia?

	20-01-2003 03:24									#410
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Who is Coruscant or Corellia? Sky, what we are trying to do is name the cities after the Vox Controli membership...now for your city, how about Skywalkerville or Skyburg?

	20-01-2003 09:02									#411
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well, I am going to decide now, since it is our turn now

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 09:14									#412
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Ok Jon, I suggest having the worker start building the road directly south-east of his current position

	20-01-2003 12:02									#413
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which worker?

Should we rename our workers to not confuse them?

Anyways the worker was in an unroaded square so he started roading.

Nothing much else this turn. Our settler comes out next turn.

	20-01-2003 19:16									#414
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I vote no to Chokepoint City as the next city. Been thinking about it. Here's my rationale.

What do we gain - a defensive spot on the chokepoint. Yes - but this achieved by fortressing a spearman there.

Completes the road - yes - can be done in 4 or so turns by a worker, including the travel time.

It will take us another 15+ turns to produce another settler - rough estimate - at The Voice.

It will take a settler 9 turns of movement - my estimate - to get from the Voice to the fish/wheat city site. It will be a plus 3 food producing city - which means it will grow every 7 turns as opposed to every 10 for the chokepoint's first pop growth, and then 20 for the second. It will be able to produce a settler much faster than chokepoint. That settler can then move to the east coast site. By then, The Voice will have produced another settler for chokepoint, or the other southern site.

The other alternative - and I can't recall where Miller Town is at right now, is to switch the barracks production back to a settler, and use him for the fish/wheat site after building Chokepoint. I also acknowledge that the settler from The Voice can be at the chokepoint in 3 turns, with a new city up on the 4th. Again though - the problem is that Chokepoint will only have one two-food tile to work with. It will never be a settler producer - it is just going to grow waayyyy too slowly (estimate of 30 turns to size 3 population).

Chokepoint's great advantage will be as a) as a canal, which we don't need right now and b) as a fortress to North Estonia, which a single spearman is presently capable of doing.

So - my recommendation is:

1) to set the new settler on his long trek to the new site - guarded by a spearman of course. Depending on the build times - that city's first build should be another settler.

2) The southern worker should continue his road.

3) Miller Town sticks with the barracks. But we need those two grassland/road squares mined to boost shield production.

4) The Voice should also start building another settler as soon as he has produced this one. The trick, as you all probably know, is to use the cows tile (3 food) for early pop growth, and review the switch to higher shield/lower food tile turn by turn to optimize the settler build - so he comes out just as the city grows. This wastes neither shields nor food.

That's my plan. What do you think?

	20-01-2003 21:38									#415
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I like it.

	20-01-2003 23:04									#416
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perhaps we can make a vote.

I think I agree with you Beta. We may as well lay stake to that land by building that far south. I don't think they will challenge us. In fact it seems like they have been pulling their warriors south.

	20-01-2003 23:06									#417
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and we'll mine the grassland squares as soon as millertown grows large enough to use them (or close to it)

I would like to road the cows first and mine that as well. because that is a square we are using 100% of the time pretty much.


And yes I have been thinking about using the cow square immediately to speed up growth to size 2. So whoever plays the next turn please make sure the Voice is working the cow square.

	20-01-2003 23:31									#418
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Opinion changed. Beta is right.

But I kinda wanted the chokepoint city to be Elipolis Maybe we can name the next city some other name and then build Elipolis on the chokepoint.

	21-01-2003 00:10									#419
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Eli - I know what you mean. Elipolis just seemed like the right name for that place. Sort of like Gallipoli during WW1, and the fight for control of the Dardanelles (I believe.)

So next city up is Dissidentville. Followed by Wittlich City. These will be the two southern cities. Puts you guys on the front lines.

Betaburg and SkyCity after that.

	21-01-2003 02:49									#420
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Sounds good to me too.