06-01-2003 22:57									#331
	Got spare money?

Do we really want a formal alliance with Lux? What if they have lost their capital city to GoW, as Señor Torquemada suspects? We don't want to get dragged into a war with the Chinese, do we?

	07-01-2003 02:13									#332
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I disagree. I beleive that they actually have 1 city, size 3. I beleive that an alliance with lux would only advance our diplomatic interests... besides, its only for 20 turns.

	07-01-2003 02:58									#333
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I am rather slow on this one, but when we accepted that Madrid Exped stop going northward against the reciprocal committement of the GoW warrior not to go further southward, we lost something : the possibility to meet Lux.
May I suggest that we come back to GoW and ask for free the contact with Lux?

	07-01-2003 03:11									#334
	Put an end to popups!

Seems reasonable. They can't deny us to go north and if they are not willing to give it for free, we can still go north. I think however that Ada has to find a diplomatic solution. What can we offer: an agreement or something?

Aidun Cian

	07-01-2003 03:14									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun . What can we offer: an agreement or something? Aidun Cian

Our esteem for their fair understanding of the case.

And they can keep the five golds we gave them in advance.

	07-01-2003 03:18									#336
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We already have contact with Lux Invicta.

We have established formal contacts with all three of the civs on our continent.

--Togas

	07-01-2003 03:30									#337
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Oh, the red warrior ! OK.

	07-01-2003 06:10									#338
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Alot has occurred at too fast a rate. I wrote this letter to Picahulu earlier this morning:

quote: Hail to you, Picahulu, my dear friend from the gloried and majestic lands of Arabia, Gracious friend, Picahulu, I am mightily pleased by your letter of late, and I must apologize for not replying at a sooner date, but an illness has incapacitated me of late, and so now is the only time I have received a chance of it. The food was splendid, these Oriental spices are quite impressive, if for some overpowering. I think some of the ladies of the court had to be carried out, but it is because of the unusual heat of some of them. Overall, I’d say it was quite satisfying, and I am glad that the Sultan, may the spirits protect him, was just as pleased with my own humble cooking. Now, down to further business. What we’d like most of all is an assurance that your good scout, Senor Arne, a fine man and cook, is not actually heading farther southward than our jungles. Please, we ask that you do not enter our heartland at this time, as you understand that we are still hammering out our final diplomatic deals at this time, and thus for the sake of proper diplomatic custom and friendship, it would not be mete and right for you to go past our heartland, as we most assuredly shall not go past yours until permission is granted. In short, we should like to ask if your gracious Sultan and magnificent government should like to establish borders with our own government, and to discuss an agreement on future settlement. My Lord Togas watches your gracious people with deep interest, and is very keen, as are all of us, to become the very best of friends with your people, good sir. This is my government’s policy on a technology alliance. We are very open to helping your culture and allow you to help ours. It is through mutual trading that we become strong, and peace and prosperity reign. We would very much like the idea of a “Peaceful Technology Trading Accord”, so that we may both trade peaceful technologies, those secrets pertaining to the enhancement of culture, and build up both cultures simultaneously through this accord. In this way, prosperity would rise all over both of our kingdoms, and while peace is firmly established, culture will thrive. We have already made the most basic of deals, the secrets of the Spanish kitchens in return for the secrets of Arabian cuisine, and then we have traded many more important technologies. In future, may we suggest, we look to, for example, a trade of Writing for, say Mysticism or Mathematics, such trades that will boost our cultures tremendously. We look forward to these deals. Yes, it is true that we have turned down some impressive offers from the Chinese Warmongers, but it is because of their intense threat, as you have noted, which grows all the more daily. Those people, they say, live for warfare, they look as forward to it as the Spanish do to a fine wine, or the Arabs do to an exquisite poem. All their will is bent on warfare, and on winning. They alone strike fear into the hearts of us, and we know the same goes for you, and the whole of the world, for they see trees as fuel, and rocks as axes. You are right that the only way to oppose such terror is to form early friendships, and to trade freely, to become a group of people who are almost inseparable, for what else may stand against such reckless hate? Speaking as such, we should very much like to hear more of your own dealings with the surrounding civilizations, as it seems you already know of ours. Knowledge is strength, and with such strength, tens of thousands, here and there, may become as one to fight a common foe. Together, Spain and Arabia shall rise to become the shining kingdoms of the earth, the examples to which all civilizations are measured. Thus, we believe, it shall be, and rightly so. I look forward to your response, my friend. Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger Ambassador from Madrid

A short time ago, he sent this, and it was indeed very urgent:

quote: Dear History Guy, urgent matters force me to write to you immedeately. Our neighbours, the Chinese people, gave very delicate informations to us which seems to be completely unlikely, although not yet impossible. GhengisFarb of China claimed that you have proposed to forge a trio alliance against us, the nation of Neu Demogyptica. They told us you would think ND has to be weakened as we are the leaders in technology. Furthermore, he claimed that the Chinese rejected this proposal! Although we consider the Spanish people to be our friends, and we don't believe GhengisFarb at all, we must demand you write a statement concerning this matter as soon as possible in order to save friendship and trust between our people. We're also keen to hear about your opinion concerning technology alliances. The Chinese claimed all civilizations on our continent have joined a technology pact. Presupposed this information is correct, we have joined in too. We're currently researching Iron Working and will be finished in 5 turns. After that we'll develop Mathematics. Please let me know what your team is going to research next. I'm sorry that our co-operation is treatened in this way, nevertheless we feel that real friendship can't be affected by plots of third partys. Sincerly yours, Picahulu, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

To which I immediately responded:

quote: Sir, I apologize for these two messages, but as a diplomat yourself, I am sure you understand. The first was the prepared response from this morning, this is the immediate response now. Another response is being hammered out already, reaching much the same conclusion, but in less blatant terms. As I write this, I must mention that your own new PM just arrived at my doorstep. I must hurry to show it to Milord Togas, but I must first assure you that it is a barbaric and hateful lie, manufactured no doubt to have us all on each other's throats. These Warmongers truly are barbarians, to have pulled so repulsive a trick. This underhanded foolishness of theirs must cease. Please, accept my apologies for this idiotic affair, but know that Spain is not harboring any such foul and despicable plots against your good people. In haste, H.de H.G.C.

I will write my opinion in the World News hut. This is indeed an interesting turn of events. It has kept me away from my squid, it is so important.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Squid Baron
Ambassador to the Arabs

	07-01-2003 06:21									#339
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For those who don't feel like reading the whole text, the Warmongers told Neu Demogyptica that we and Lux Invicta were teaming up to destroy them, and that we wanted the Warmongers to sign up too and help us whip them, and that they refused. This is from Picahulu, the ambassador from Neu Demogyptica, as he heard it from his Sultan, as he heard it from Genghis Farb himself.

Conclusion...

We aren't going to be making friends with Glory of War any time soon...

I think we should...find Iron Working, team up with Neu Demogyptica and Lux Invicta, and at the earliest opportunity, wipe the Chinese off the face of Apolyton.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to Arabia

	07-01-2003 06:36									#340
	Inflate your Upload Space

Again - trust no one - keep them all at a distance - only to draw them near as we need them.

	07-01-2003 06:40									#341
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by History Guy I think we should...find Iron Working, team up with Neu Demogyptica and Lux Invicta, and at the earliest opportunity, wipe the Chinese off the face of Apolyton.

Ah, intrique! Perhaps this is precisely the reaction ND is hoping for!

Have you considered the possibility that ND is feeding us a story here, designed to re-ignite the embers of the recent RP-GoW trist? By now they will have realized that: A) they are boxed in by jungle, Lux, and GoW; B) as the only non-Apolyton team, they may not be spared any mercy; and C) their early expansionist lead will make them a target.

If I were in their shoes, I would be looking to create a conflict among the other teams before one or more of them struck our at me.

Do not overreact and start a flurry of heated PM's. We must consider our reaction carefully.

	07-01-2003 06:41									#342
	Put an end to popups!

Senor, I agree. My initial reaction was to type, "Be warned, if this is a plot of your own making, reaction will be swift and severe". However, for the sake of diplomacy, I did not send that in the end. It just wouldn't have been wise. It could well be, and indeed could very likely be a plot of the Neu Demogypticans themselves. I do not trust them, I feel they think they can milk us, and bend us. However, they will make useful allies, if we don't just have to pop them in the head with a crossbow and dump them in the river.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Squid Baron

	07-01-2003 06:43									#343
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Ah, before I could respond, Dejon, the every watchful warrior, grabs the words from my mouth, stuffs them back in, and allows me to spit them back out only seconds afterward to make me look daft.

	07-01-2003 06:48									#344
	Tired of ads?

I'm about to shoot a very friendly PM to GoW with our tech list (which they know, but...). I was planning to use it as a general diplomatic reopener, and I'll probably keep it to happy thoughts, but is there anything I should ask them about this? Did we suggest to GoW that we conspire against ND? This whole circular lying thing is getting very confusing . If not, should I talk to them about it very friendly like? Say that I'm sure it's a lie from ND, and I was wondering if they'd spread any similar nonsense about us?

-- adaMada

	07-01-2003 06:49									#345
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It could be either country spreading stories, but this is a very interesting development. The game is early and rumors and scheming already abound.

If GoW did in fact spread this rumor, it's best that they not know that ND immediately went to us with it. We want ND to reveal further GoW "plots" to us.

If ND made this up and we tell GoW about this, they're going to think that we're accusing them of trechery against us, and it'll further stress relations between us.

Our best choice is to deny these things (as History and I have done in separate PMs, since Picahulu PM'd us both with the same message) and then work towards postive and peaceful relations with ND. By our actions we must show that we can be trusted, and we must be certain not to change our foreign policy based on rumors.

--Togas

	07-01-2003 06:50									#346
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy Ah, before I could respond, Dejon, the every watchful warrior, grabs the words from my mouth, stuffs them back in, and allows me to spit them back out only seconds afterward to make me look daft.

Whatever I can do to help.

	07-01-2003 07:05									#347
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Ok . I'll work towards positive relations with GoW in general, as I was planning, and not a wimper about this to them.

-- adaMada

	07-01-2003 07:12									#348
	My Message to GoW Full PM-box? Change here!

Here's the message I just sent to Panzer. It's perhaps over-polite, maybe to the point of sucking up a bit , but I want to promote a better diplomatic relationship with them as best we can. If GoW really is telling ND that we have an alliance against them, it might be their way of getting back to us for the last controversy, so I'd like to resume normal diplomacy as soon as is possible.

quote: My esteemed comrade from Glory of War, It's just occurred to me that, several days ago, you asked us for our tech list, and I never provided you with it. The oversight was purely mine, as my team had always intended to send it to you. I do apologize, and hope you can forgive the lapse. Our current list of techs: * Alphabet * Ceremonial Burial * Bronze Working * Masonry * Pottery * Wheel * Warrior Code I apologize again, and hope that we can move on with good relations. We look forward to trading with you more as we both continue to move up through the tech trade, and let me send my own personal best wishes to both yourself and your esteemed leader, Ghengis Farb. -- adaMada

-- adaMada

	07-01-2003 08:02									#349
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

[OOC] This is getting VERY Interesting....[/OOC]

This Ghengis Farb Khan is a very Devious Person and should be watched very Carefully. While we try to sow the seeds of lasting freindships & Trust, he apparently is doing the opposite and is sowing the Weeds of Distrust and Hate. But what better way for so called Mercenaries to get to be Hired, but to try to create the very distrust that would give them the Employers to hire them.

Letus Eta Tamali

	07-01-2003 23:33									#350
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I received the following PM from ND:

quote: a) of cause we are ready to be your shield to the north! b) we want to believe you that you have to settle in the north and the west and at the moment we have no plans to settle there but before we can talk about a border agreement for the future we have to discover the jungle between us. For this we will not go to the south with our scout but to the west. later in the game it would be nice if you could invite our scout to travel through your wonderful country to explore the south. we also would allow you to visit our small country. c) You wrote: "Lux Invicta claims that you broke your deal with them about settlements"... Please let me tell you our point of view: centuries ago: our scout found a settler and our settler walked some turns to the north. he was alone and it was cold and dangerous in the darkness. a warrior of the ottomans came and showed his weapons to our shy settler. he asked us to divide the land and actually they wanted to have the much better part of the country. nevertheless my people almost were ready to accept the border deal but the ottoman warrior did not stop to follow our single settler for another 3 turns (6 turns total!). i wrote trip a message that we would not accept any deals and that we would stop all negotiations if the warrior would follow us one more step... anyway the did not stop hunting our settler :-/ since these days we dont like visitors coming from the east but after 500 years we started to write new and friendly messages to Lux invicta in the last time. thats the story and thats the truth. Please tell this your people...

1) I mentioned to him that we wanted to see ND strong as they stand directly in the way between us and GoW, and if they are strong, we are safe from GoW agression.

2) I told him we could ONLY settle to the west and north, given our poor starting location and that we had already settled to the west (south of the jungle) and that we wanted to come to a settlement agreement that we would not interfere with their northern settlements if they would not interfere with our settlements south of the jungle.

We need to consider if we should invite their scout south now ... or if by doing so they'd uncover the vast valley to the SW with elephants, etc. Maybe it's best that they only know about Cow Valley and believe (as we will tell them) that this is the ONLY place we can grow to.

3) This does not surprise me about Lux. I believe ND's version of the story. And while it seems that ND is the most advanced nation, they have far too many enemies and rivals. We must continue to hold out our hand in friendship to ND. Furthermore, I have no problem with them expanding to fill the gap between us and Lux and GoW. We just need to be sure that they don't beat us to settlements in the west.

--Togas

	07-01-2003 23:41									#351
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I received a joint email from Ghengis Farb, written to us as well as ND.

He is proposing a tech alliance.

quote: ND just informed me that they are now interested in the tech sharing idea (first email I had gotten from them in a while I was beginning to get the idea they had cut off diplomatic relations with me) Here is the chart with the techs everyone is researching now and what they would like to research next. I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by sending this as I don't see how this is going to destroy anyone's gameplan. ND has stated they wish to research Mathematics next. As my team researched the cheapest tech of the lot we would like to research Mapmaking to make up for it so that we are contributing our full share. Roleplay is researching the most expensive tech so I woudl not have a problem with them researching one of the lower cost ones. This is not an Official Diplomatic message, just a message to start some organization so that we can start to get on the same page so to speak. It is my philosophy that this tech coordination in no way affect diplomatic or political discussions. If one civ declares war on another civ so be it, but the tech thing continues. If Lux and ND go to war (example only, not trying to start a war) then Lux will still get the research ND did and vice versa it will simply be transferred through a non-aligned party. What are your teams views on this? I am going to try to get a consensus from my team. I also envision that immediately upon researching your assigned tech you give it to the other teams. This would eliminate the desire of one team to choose a specific tech for a Wonder and hold on to it to get an advantage over the other three.

I wrote him back saying that we were doing Mapmaking, and since it's much more efficient for us to do it immediately after writing, since we'd be the only ones who could research it at that time, they should do another tech. He wrote me back asking if we had any suggestions for what they should research.


Frankly, I'm not entirely keen on this idea, but I'm publicly saying that we're "on board" and I'll let someone else be the spoiler. I do think that our 4 nations should all research different techs, but Ghengis is proposing a rather "socialist" sort of project, one that (if we were to get involved in) I would recommend that we DROP our research rate substantially after learning mapmaking, collect gold, coast along at a 30 turn pace, and cash in on everyone else's efforts.

--Togas

	07-01-2003 23:45									#352
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Fully agreed, Togas (on your last post about the PM from ND). We need to become very good friends of ND if possible.

That said, we also should be attempting to convince Lux Invicta NOT to fight ND. That's equally critical.

If both of those objectives are accomplished, that would leave GoW all on its lonesome if they want to start a war here.

	07-01-2003 23:47									#353
	Got spare money?

As for the message from ND about GoW's "plot" to divide us, I suspect it to be genuine. It DOES sound like something GhengisFarb would attempt to do and would count on GoW's already deplorable reputation to mean that it won't hurt them if their plot is found out. Afterall, no-one is forming agreements with GoW because they TRUST GoW anyways...

The best counter is, as Togas suggested, to simply disavow involvement and remain resolute about our friendships.

	07-01-2003 23:51									#354
	Remove this text

btw... I've got an idea...

Perhaps we should suggest to Legoland to forward ND the message they got from GoW about ND being such an enormous threat

If LEGOLAND forwarded this to them (a nation not even in contact with ND that GoW was trying to get aligned against ND), that might go a long way to convincing ND that it is GoW that is behind these plots rather than ourselves.

Afterall, ND will have no reason to believe that Legoland might be lying.

On the other hand, Legoland might be unwilling as it would be a "violation of trust" with GoW.

That said, Legoland can always tell ND that they'll only give ND a copy of what GoW sent Legoland if ND promises not to publish the information or confront GoW with it. That way ND both realizes that GoW is the true villain AND GoW doesn't get tipped off that Legoland was the one to tip off ND.

We could FURTHER this by then forwarding ND our OWN messages from GoW where GoW was trying to convince us to go after ND.

That would make our attempts to convince ND that we're actually on THEIR side of this a bit stronger (and give them very good reason to know that GoW sees them as a target).

Just an idea...

	08-01-2003 00:03									#355
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Not a bad idea at all, Arnelos...

Thud, could you try to arrange for Legoland to contact ND about the messages they've been receiving from GoW about ND. Explain to them that GoW has also been saying these things about us to ND, and that we are trying to show ND the truth about who is scheming against whom.

If there are any confidentiality issues, they can either paraphrase the letter, or ask ND to NOT tell GoW that they sent it.

--Togas

	08-01-2003 00:55									#356
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GF's memo to us and ND, he seems to be including Lux in it as well. So this would be a four way tech agreement? This is good at least to get out of the Ancient Age. Maybe we could take it one or two steps at a time. We all agree to research our two assigned techs, and trade them, but only when everyone is done. Not as GF proposes. My fear is that everyone drops their research rate as proposed above and all four of slow down our research capabilities thus hurting all of ourselves.

Furthermore, if we go writing and mapmaking (my assumption is the GF volunteered that because he knows its not logical for him to do it because he does not have writing - so we would have to give him writing or we would have to research it ) then shouldn't we get some guarantee kind of additional compensation?

I agree we should not be the ones to kill this deal, and in fact favor these kinds of tech trades- but we need to protect ourselves from not being taken advantage of.

Finally, I agree with bringing ND into an alliance or at least a non-agression pact - like we are with Lux.

	08-01-2003 01:28									#357
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

No es divertido cómo él se va en su capacidad de conducir guerra. Y que ninguna guerra no efectúa el comercio del tech.

I mean...

Isn't funny how he leaves in his ability to conduct war. And that any war does not effect the tech trade.

	08-01-2003 01:38									#358
	OOC: The Timeliness of Tech Advancement Put an end to popups!

I surmise that GoW is wanting to have everybody advance TOO Quickly. This would allow them to get to their UU that much faster, while everybody is still building up their Defenses AND their builds (likely working on Wonders) AND fairly cash poor. This would leave them with the ability to rage war unchecked.

While this is a great Idea, we need to be certain that we don't advance too quickly or that the others try to maintain a steady pace.

With that in mine, we should reduce our current (and future) tech rate, so that we can have the available cash to do the proper Upgrades, when the time comes. If we can present a Properly modernized Military to the Warmongers, we can keep them at bay.

E_T

	08-01-2003 02:05									#359
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Jdjdjd, We're the only ones that are reseaching writing. If we wait one turn with trading writing when we have discovered, we can assure ourselves of a small lead when we start researching mapmaking. The result: we discover mapmaking one turn earlier than GoW does. We can then trade it to the other two before GoW does. Of course we'll inform Gow that we want to reseach Mapmaking too before we start it, but because they need writing they cannot get it earlier than we get it.
Think also of the worthy contacts GoW can make if they sent a trireme along the coast to meet Lego, Vox or GS. We must prevent them of doing so.

Aidun Cian

	08-01-2003 02:14									#360
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Something strange: GoW is trading techs with Lux, but why aren't they mentioned in Ghenghis' message when he summarizes the teams and the techs they're researching?
It may have a reason: bad relations between Lux and GoW, the reason that Lux wanted to have a treaty with us.
Has Jdjdjd perhaps an idea?

Aidun Cian