09-01-2003 01:48									#181
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WOW this is moving so quick. I am sorry that I have been negligent in my duties here as I have been quite busy in RL and the SP Demo Game. Maybe I should recognize this and step down for now. I an willing to do the work, but it seams that my timing is off.

nbarclay, Thak you for filling the gap I created by my absence. You are making a finer dipmomat than I am right now.

Does any one want me to step in here at all? It seems like everything is under control? I want to help but every time I think I can break free from the SP Demo game, I find myself in court and get dragged back into it. No excuses, just what is happening.


Mss

	09-01-2003 01:52									#182
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Good response. :d Send it....

I would send it, but I do not want to take credit for a fine piece of work that I did not do.

Mss

	09-01-2003 02:01									#183
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I think the SP DG needs your engagement to a much greater amount than the PTW DG, after so many (including me) have left it or are there seldomer than they were in the past. I'm glad that there are people who keep it running. Nathan does amazing work at your place, but he can't forever to 2 jobs, even more since there may be more contacts in the near future. Perhaps we should think about a solution.

	09-01-2003 02:24									#184
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I feel the same way, the SPDG needed some juice a month ago, I believe that is in better participtory shape now....

Well my position as FAM is up in a week or so (the 12th I believe). I do not have a big commitment beyond that. I would like to stay on, as I will be freed up by then. I will be semi active a senator in that game, but I would rather dedicate my time to this game.

During the interim, Is it possible to PM me when we need to assemble a response and such? I peep in once a day, but have not sync-ed up with what is going on a lot.

Mss

	09-01-2003 02:30									#185
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quote: but have not sync-ed up with what is going on a lot.

DeepO!!, where is that history thread !?!?!?

	09-01-2003 02:43									#186
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Keep trying... eventually you might find someone to delegate your job to. But not tonight, Alva

DeepO

	09-01-2003 04:02									#187
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I would love to help more diplomacy-wise, but it looks as though I'll have my hands full with school this semester. I'll definitely keep up my duties as ambassador to LI and as Tactician, but I cannot promise anything more.

Things appear to be going well (I mean, are being taken care of adequately...out actual position in the game is rather complicated), so again I have to give a thumbs up to everyone involved in the Vox situation.




Dominae

	09-01-2003 04:10									#188
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Dominae, will you contact LUX?

	09-01-2003 04:20									#189
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quote: Originally posted by alva Dominae, will you contact LUX?

You mean about minimap trading? If so, I was just thinking about this; I'll get it done tonight sometime.


Dominae

	09-01-2003 04:29									#190
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Yes I was dominae
(could you update the first post, when you have done so?)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73280

btw:
vox has sent their turn to lux(they have sent it to lego allready)

Turn will be here soon.

	09-01-2003 05:01									#191
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Ok, sorry, I must have missed the urgency of this mini-map trading thing (keeping up in the GS threads is surprisingly a lot of work!). I'll have the message sent within the hour (it's 12pm GMT now).


Dominae

	09-01-2003 07:12									#192
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Ok, I've sent a PM to both Admiral PJ and Trip. I also just created the diplomatic log thread for LI. You can check out my proposal there.


Dominae

	10-01-2003 02:46									#193
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Assuming they set their Worker to improve tiles around their capital for the first few turns (makes sense), their capital is no further than 7-8 tiles from the isthmus. Something to think about.

Also, either they're producing another Worker ASAP to "replace" the other one (severely hampering their growth), or they're putting everything into taking us out in an early rush.


Dominae

	10-01-2003 03:57									#194
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Another possibility, just speculating.

Game tiles on forested grassland offer a good mix of food and production without any improvement. I usually chop and mine them, but that doesn't mean everyone does (especially this early). And game tiles on forested plains or cattle on plains can't give any better food or production with improvement than without unless there's water to irrigate. What if we've lucked out and Vox doesn't have water handy? (Do we have any way to get an indication of whether they have water?)

With two tiles that do about as well without improvement as with, Vox could have built enough tile improvements to handle two size-2 cities in twelve turns or less, or eighteen turns with only one. That would leave at least about ten turns for their worker to have traveled here. And in that case, as long as their cities build settlers practically the moment they hit size 3, they don't lose much.

Also note that a rush at the expense of growth would be very nearly an all-or-nothing gamble for them. If they fail, they probably won't have the production to defend themselves adequately if we return the favor. (Of course if they aren't watching the score and power graphs, they may not realize yet that we have as many cities as they do in spite of detouring for a granary.)

	10-01-2003 06:28									#195
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My guess is that they're willing to take a hit in their economy early on to ensure securing the isthmus and, more importantly, build up an early road network for their Immortals. The problem is, they're going to have to get a second Worker to hook up the Iron they probably don't see yet (or have just discovered).

All these possibilities indicate that Vox may not be as economically strong as we are (or will be). This is great news (the best since that Settler!).


Dominae

	10-01-2003 16:07									#196
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quote: they're going to have to get a second Worker to hook up the Iron they probably don't see yet (or have just discovered).

Which will hamper their growth even more.
(rushing is a question of timing, start too early and you can't build/pay. Start too late and, well.....)

Rushing is not as easy as it looks (certainly not with immortals)

	10-01-2003 16:16									#197
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From BetaHound's latest message, it sounds like they may be about out of usable terrain north of the isthmus. Their worker may be getting set to prepare some tile improvements for the new city they're planning to found soon on the isthmus.

Nathan

	10-01-2003 16:19									#198
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Didn't read the "breakthrough" message , before posting this.

	10-01-2003 19:20									#199
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Wow, sounds like Estonia was named due to its size. Ok, so they are going to found a city at the isthmus soon, and will likely beat us to the jungle. But I think we should be able to claim what's south of that.

Based on the geography, I'm almost positive that we and Vox will come to blows in the late ancient age. However, until then, I applaud the efforts of our chief economist in his attempts to improve our technological prowess through trade.

-Arrian

	10-01-2003 19:52									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Wow, sounds like Estonia was named due to its size. Ok, so they are going to found a city at the isthmus soon, and will likely beat us to the jungle.

If we allow them to claim it. Mind you, that we are in a position, where we can block their land route, and Writing plus Map Making is expensive for one with poor land and without a river. We are definitely in a strong position on this matter. We should use this. May be this fact is the reason, why they consider to give in to our demands concerning the scouts.

	10-01-2003 19:55									#201
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Btw, a deal for the farther future: We could offer them water. As far as I see, they could irrigate till their core land, once we send them the water of the Flood of Tears.

	10-01-2003 20:09									#202
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And what 'claim' are they making so far?
Up too where their warriors are now?

	10-01-2003 20:12									#203
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They claim the isthmus, and it appears to be rightful theirs. However far they extend this term, I don't know.

	10-01-2003 20:18									#204
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If our speculation are correct- and Vox are short of land in general, and fertile land in particular (and no fresh water as well= no irrigation) than it is indeed great news. Positioning EotS as a settler pump might be even better than we though- we will do great not to pity Vox, or think of how this possible turn of events evens out the recent embarrassing situation- regarding their scouts and isthmus blockade.

If we act fast enough, and push on towards the isthmus- and i'm talking about flank speed- while building few cheap defensive units to make a defensive position along the edge of the northern jungle could mean slow death by suffocation for Vox, with little effort from us- we just roll over them once we achieved regional supremcy.

True, the isthmus is theirs, and at least one or two Voxian cities beyond it is a given, but we shouldn't allow them to break through and settle deep in the jungle- definitely not threatening site #12 (according to Nathan's city placement plan). This can be achieved if we head straight for the Isthmus, with our settlers, and settle the fertile south later- although this hurts- IMHO it helps guaranty our future domination of this land.

Meanwhile- an effective buffer, both militarily and diplomaticaly, must be placed, to deter and disrupt Vox's plans of settling around the Isthmus. Perhaps we should push for some agreement of making the southern funnel of the Isthmus a demilitarized Zone, or at least a spot not to be settled untill we agree on the division of the land (our negotiators are to use Vox tactics of delay and deception, to stall and earn us time in which we advance towards the Isthmus with our cities).

	10-01-2003 21:03									#205
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I don't want to write checks we can't cash. Before settling up north, I want our core regions down south settled, so that we have the productive capacity to deal with a potential Voxian attack.

I would like to beat them to the jungle (or rather, a city just north of it, if possible, but we'll see. Priority right now goes to city sites #3, 4 and 7. If they do turn their explorers around, #3 is first, I think we all agreed, right?

Sir Ralph, great creative thinking re: water deal. Our water would have to go a looooooong way, though. That's a lot of effort on our part, and would take quite a bit of time. They had better pay well, and pay at least partially in advance.

-Arrian

	10-01-2003 21:09									#206
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I second most of what Zeit said. I don't think that this problem is very urgent, especially given the fact that our warriors are currently blocking the Isthmus on our side. However, I agree on the matter of tactics - delay works in our favor. We can keep the warriors that are blocking the Isthmus in position and stall our response. That way we can secure the area below the funnel while still having time to build a solid, productive core.

Sir Ralph: excellent idea! They'll pay good for water, I'm sure.

	10-01-2003 21:16									#207
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They could give us a worker(slave) to do it. He could build some roads for us and irrigation for them.

	10-01-2003 21:54									#208
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Great idea alva.
I'm thinking along these lines: we propose this deal to them in several turns (when they have more workers and are willing to consider giving us slaves). We can ask for two slaves and tell them that they will work alongside one of our workers to speed up the process, and that we will return these workers to them as soon as the aqueduct is completed. They will be interested in this because they want water, and because they want it fast.
We'll have all the advantages in this deal - we'll be able to lie about helping the construction of the aqueduct, and we can use the slaves to build a road through the jungle for our WCs as well.

	10-01-2003 23:35									#209
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I doubt they would give up 2 workers anytime soon, even to get water. It doesn't hurt to ask them "what would you offer us if we brought you water?" and see what they say.

Then we can take it from there. We can see what they say about it. My proposal would be 1 slave who does nothing but irrigate. Any other project (with the exception of helping clear a path through the jungle, which is necessary to continuing the irrigation chain) would be in bad faith. Our own workers can take care of roading.

Another possibility is that, once we get the irrigation near the jungle, we could allow a couple of their workers through the chokepoint to assist in jungle clearing/irrigating. First off, they would work faster. Second, they get to have them back at the end. Third, if the fit hits the shan, we have hostages Fourth, clearing the jungle is most certainly in our best interests militarily.

The tradeoff is, of course, they could see what was going on in that area while their workers are helping out.

-Arrian

	10-01-2003 23:38									#210
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Oh, I just had a though: they did say no river, but they could have a lake, no?

-Arrian