06-09-2004 18:28									#331
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big to GoW patrolling their borders with tanks.

or.... are we sure they know GoW has tanks? maybe this is just a fishing expedition to see how far ahead we are from them...



I don't have anything of substance to add, as this is a very delicate situation.

	06-09-2004 18:49									#332
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If ND and GoW have an embassy (which I imagine they do) then the military advisor will tell them that the best unit GoW have are Tanks. Or so I believe. It's only if you don't have an embassy that your knowledge is limited to what you've seen in the field.

	06-09-2004 21:18									#333
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I Deepo's idea of trying to make some sort of deal where both GoW and ND understand we will be force to help ND is they are backstab during the time of the invasion.

All to expire after we give ND tanks (or sell or trade). ND should undersand that GoW has very little to gain by attacking them before Lego.

They must all understand that either will incur our wraith and could get Lego to aid them. They can just go to Lego and tell them of the plan and point out it is good for them to jump in.

Frankly I cannot see either jumping the other without at least one team on their side. It is just too risky. Again, no one can afford to worry about that as they would be doomed.

None of the three of us could hold out against the the rest or even two. Well they may hold out, but they would be effectively out of the running.

	06-09-2004 22:30									#334
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OK, so it looks like we should offer ND a security plan. We agree to trade them Electronics and Mot Trans the same turn as Lego get those techs, at their usual price to ND (20%?), and meanwhile offer them a security pact, guarranteeing their safety against GoW until we supply them Mot Trans. This could offer the balance we need to keep GoW focused on Lego and preventing ND attacking GoW.

	06-09-2004 22:32									#335
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Another thought - do we want ND to join in against Lego?

	06-09-2004 22:45									#336
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Is Lego at the 4 turn threshhold anyways? They certainly should be given their land. It will make it cheaper for Lego to get MT, but not faster.

I don't like the idea of telling GoW that we would be forced to join in on ND's side. In that case it will appear to GoW as if they have to join up with Lego to stay alive. If we do give this guarantee to ND, it has to be kept from GoW or we will be fighting Lego alone.

I do like a limited (defensive) and secret MPP with ND if we can get it. If GoW attacks one of us, the other will attack GoW, not to apply in reverse. ND would get MT for a price now and be required to declare war on Lego (to cut deals if not to fight) when the invasion starts, covering the cost benefit that Lego would be receiving from another civ having the tech. If we could get ND to at least offer some sort of landing threat (even if it's just 5-10 empty transports and a bit of fleet cover) along with that it would help greatly.

I'm not too worried about GoW holding back more because of ND's Tanks. If we can get more out of ND to cover possible GoW "defections" from the invasion it will work out to our benefit by taking more land from Lego than GoW does.

	07-09-2004 13:51									#337
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I sent a note to Darekill floating the embryo of a security deal to keep the dialogue going and to see what they think of it.

Last edited by Cort Haus on 07-09-2004 at 13:58

	08-09-2004 11:22									#338
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Maybe it's best to keep the limited MPP secret from GoW. However, I'm not sure if this is the perfect thing to do. The problem I see is that in case we don't tell them, we risk ND building up force on their side of the border, so that GoW will find themselves in the need for more troops as well.

Further, in case GoW somehow attacks ND, they will probably find it very strange to hear that we've got a MPP with them... but this doesn't bother me that much: they shouldn't attack ND, period.

Further, yesL the price has been 20%, and IMO it should stay like that. We can discuss other payment options, like embargoing Lego (for which I would be willing to drop the price with several hundred gold).

-----------------

One more fundamental question, is that we seem to agree that we will sell tanks to ND. For me, that's fine: so far ND has been honorable in their deals with us, and we are slowly gaining their friendship. I trust them more than I trust MZ and the rest of GoW (in case there still is a rest of GoW). However, we must be certain of that before discussing options on how, and when to deliver it to them.


----------

Aeson: they are at 4-turn research, however I'm not certain if it doesn't make a difference. True, they are likely far ahead of us in bpt, but both AT and electronics are expensive techs to get (4800 beakers, minus the 20% discount for being 3rd). We can make 1000 bpt at max slider, and I'm sure Lego can do this as well. But there is a good chance that they will not set to 100% that easily, and choose for 5-turn research instead. Further, if ND has the tech, it's a flat 1000 gold Lego is not able to get in the same time, which is considerable, no matter how good their economy is doing.

Last thing: I would prefer ND to be tankless for the moment. It won't give them any ideas to attack us, before we've got plenty of MI covering our Western cities.


CH: one minor remark: when dealing with ND, use plain language, please. I'm not certain if otherwise the message gets through.

Just tell them: "we're still discussing this, but in case GoW would attack you before we give you tanks, we will attack GoW, and aim to destroy them." It's much more powerful... also, I'm not sure if the "private" MPP got through, in that they are not supposed to tell GoW... but we can more formally describe this once we know our stance better.

Fine, back to the beach for me... take care, guys!

DeepO

	10-09-2004 01:30									#339
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Well, based on the latest from Darekill, the MPP idea is up in smoke. ND and GoW have reached an agreement, and we are no longer needed.

Note that there is now a NAP between GoW and ND. ND keeps its promises. Should GoW and GS do too well against Lego, ND may feel compelled to do something about it. Under those circumstances, ND's target would be us (unless the NAP runs out at just the right time).

Just thinkin' out loud...

-Arrian

	10-09-2004 03:21									#340
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translation: we're screwed

	10-09-2004 03:41									#341
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I am not so sure that it has any bad connotation for us. What does it mean? It could mean just what is says, ND and GoW are not going to fight each other right now.

That is good, we want them to be in on Lego. If they in fact are in on US, then, we go down swinging.

The question is then who to try to hurt. At first glance ND would be my choice, but I think I would feel most betrayed by MZ.


ND was never our friend and really never said it was. GoW has tried to make us think we were working together.

Anyway nothing has changed from about 6 months ago. Namely if the three of us do not join to attack Lego, they win. If ND and GoW do not see that, we are cooked.

I do not see how GoW could see slicing us up will make them a winner. It will only make them number 2, but then they will be that anyway.

ND claims to be happy to see Lego win, so I have no idea why they are in the game.

The good news is we must go very soon, regardless.

	10-09-2004 10:14									#342
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Such grim ideas here... personally, I see GoW screwing ND once the time comes. Or, we should have too won much on Legoland, in which case we will become the target. Right now, there is little we can do about that, though.

The only thing I see Re: our current situation, is to offer a one-way MPP to ND, but for a price. Or, maybe, we can get GoW into this. I don't think ND understands we want to have a limited duration MPP, just for 15 turns or so...

DeepO

	10-09-2004 16:54									#343
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We'll see if ND still want tanks early (message in log). Their reason for seeking this seems to have evaporated. At least we made them a nice offer - can't do us any harm diplomatically.

	16-09-2004 11:26									#344
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WTF?! GoW is going to give ND the techs? what gives them the right?! This really pisses me off, I hope it's just a misunderstanding. GoW is bound to 20 turn NDA on those techs, and we will NOT want to loose money because they want to play nice to ND. If they give them to ND, they have to pay us!

Please get on this, this is important!

Further, was AT send to ND? It is their payment for espionage, so send that immediately, please, together with a message what it's intended for. We need espionage the moment they got it, without delay. In sending AT now, they will send it immediately, these Germans are very honorable in their agreements. And any turn won on the tech, means we can build it sooner in Arashi, freeing it for marines, infs, or whatever.

Please contact GoW to clear this mess, this is not right.

DeepO

	08-11-2004 15:31									#345
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See the log for last message. The deal on MT has been done, radio was sold by GoW (to be expected), but most importantly: they are asking about computers.

I propose to trade it to them, however as we wouldn't be waiting for Lego to have it first, ask a bit more from ND in return. Say... 30% of the beaker price or so... or 25%, and another 20 turns on their lux (we were supposed to pay them again in turn 250. We will not get another tech to sell beforehand.)

DeepO

	09-11-2004 03:51									#346
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Does anyone want to comment on the price of computers, please? I know it only has been 12h, but if at all possible, I would love to answer them within 24h. Just a matter of politeness....

DeepO

	09-11-2004 03:59									#347
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Would we like to direct/coordinate ND's further research?

	09-11-2004 04:39									#348
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If possible, yes. I can ask them what, and how they are going to work... whether it's a 40-turn plan, or something else. If we could e.g. have GoW going for fission, and ND for rocketry, we would be free to do minituarisation and trade it to them. If they are interested, of course.

It would be a nice time for ND to switch from buying techs to researching themselves, there are a lot of options. OTOH, there are a couple of paths where 40-turn research is not that bad either (fission being one, recycling the other), as research is going to take a long time right now.

DeepO

	09-11-2004 06:03									#349
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Call me crazy, but I think we should soon plant a spy in ND.

	09-11-2004 06:03									#350
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Can we try for 30% and 20 turns lux or would that be pushing it? ND are gonna be as big as Lego soon, and they've been doing nothing with their cash except getting bargains on tech, so they can afford it, if they won't be offended.

	09-11-2004 06:53									#351
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sleepy, you're right about spies. I would welcome one in every country... the problem is that if we are detected, they might not like it very much.

CH, 30% + lux? We could try... the only problem I see is that ND doesn't negotiate: either they agree, or they call off the deal. Without the lux deal, I would certainly agree on 30%, but now? I don't know... 5% is something like 300 gold, it's not the end of the world (on both sides, of course).

Something that's important in this discussion, is whether ND will see the lux deal as an implicit NAP or not. If we could now pay for the lux up to turn 269, we're more or less certain we could get another tech deal out of this, without fear of being attacked. That is, to me, far more worth than 300 gold. If ND doesn't see a lux deal as an NAP, this doesn't work of course.

DeepO

	09-11-2004 07:51									#352
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We need the cash coming in and to not stir ND more than an extra percent right now. I would be on the safe side.

We also do not want to lose our lux ith them. I would not risk a spy on them unil we have some inroads on Lego. We do not need one real bad at this point as we can do nothing anyway.

	09-11-2004 08:45									#353
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Something that's important in this discussion, is whether ND will see the lux deal as an implicit NAP or not. If we could now pay for the lux up to turn 269, we're more or less certain we could get another tech deal out of this, without fear of being attacked. That is, to me, far more worth than 300 gold. If ND doesn't see a lux deal as an NAP, this doesn't work of course. DeepO

I think that's blown with this war, esp since we abandoned the 1 turn warning.

Then again, with these crazy Krauts, who knows?

I would certainly welcome a 20 turn NAP with them at this juncture. And frankly, tactically and strategically they are much better off waiting to strike GoW in the next 3-4 turns, anyway.

	09-11-2004 16:57									#354
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There is a difference: the deal we had with Lego was a 1 lux for 1 lux deal. The deal we've got with ND is a 3 lux for 2 lux deal, where we pay them every 20 turns for their lux. So if they declare war, they have taken our advance payment, but don't deliver the goods.

If we would declare war on Vox, we run into the same situation: they have delivered communism to us, and we are still 20 turn lux payment behind. Of course, we can't really be blamed for that, as Vox has waited 30(?) turns to ask for their payment... they can't seriously expect us to sign an implicit NAP for 70 turns because of 1 tech. 70 turns is like eternity in this game.

DeepO

	09-11-2004 17:42									#355
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One lux was sent to Vox sent on turn 227 - so about 5 turns left, and another at their asking. Well, we don't really want war with Vox, do we? In fact, we could ask them if they want their other luxury now to make it less likely they join in . The last thing we want are 3 trannies of Vox marines heading for Estonia ...

	09-11-2004 17:52									#356
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On the ND price - if 30% is too much then OK. We need to keep in with ND.

	09-11-2004 19:06									#357
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We don't actually look at Vox as a neutral nation, do we? I mean, they're as beholden to Lego as RP is to us. As far as I'm concerned, they are the enemy, even if a formal state of war does not (yet) exist.

-Arrian

	09-11-2004 20:29									#358
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I wouldn't mind an official war with Vox, if they start it. We can't afford to be the ones to start it right now. And yes, even if we're still providing lux to them, we're unofficially at war. There is no guarantee whatsoever that they won't try to land some marines in a few turns, just to disturb us. Whether they get lux from us or not won't matter one single bit.

The moment we can spare the cash, we should get a spy in Vox. ND and GoW could wait, but Vox... knowing if they are building marines or not can become crucial.

As to the 30% to ND: well... it's not that I think it's too much, it's just we should play on the safe side. They do not negotiate, and that's the problem. GoW will: if we propose 30% to them, and they don't like it, they say "what about 25%, is that also ok?" We lost a couple of deals to ND because of this, I want to avoid that. 25% is something that they should agree to without hesitation, I think. At least I would.

DeepO

	18-11-2004 18:44									#359
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quote: To our Trades. We have the following proposal. We are currently already researching Rocketry. We'll be finished in about 13 turns. So what about if you give us computers in let'S say two or three turns and we pay 600G to you now. In 13 turns you receive rocketry and give us back the 600G. So it's tech for tech. I don't know the exact beaker costs of rocketry compared to Computers but if there is a difference, we can afford it to compensate it in gold.

For me, this is quite alright. We get some gold now to do upgrades if needed. We are guaranteed to get rocketry as well, meaning we'll get Alu. Together with GoW's fission does this mean we've got the time to go for another tech, and if we somehow can manage to start on this early, we'll keep our tech advantage (but only 1 tech, instead of being 2 techs ahead).

The cost of computers is 6240, of rocketry is 5760.

quote: That leaves the upcomming Luxurydeal open. Here we'd prefer a G/T base if you don't mind. G/T is great if we research. How much? I'm sure we find an acceptable arrangement in that point too. What do you say?

This is understandable. We do not have to decide this, but I can certainly agree on them asking for gpt for lux. It will leave all options open: they can honorably break the lux deal, without breaking an implicit NAP. In case they would break a 20-turn lux deal we got as exchange for a tech, they should pay us something while declaring war.

I would agree to this. How much gpt is something else, but we've got another 7 turns to negotiate about this, we still have 7 turns before ou credit runs out.

DeepO

	18-11-2004 19:40									#360
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Yes, that seems reasonable. Any thoughts on whether ND might have a role to play on Lego?