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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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How many pages did you have to dig through to find this thread? 
I posted my thoughts in the GoW/ND tech trade thread, but I can paste 'em here:
...
Is anyone going to be able to make the chat at 3pm today? I can't, since that's mid-afternoon and I'll be here at work (what a pisser I didn't get sick a day or two later, so I would be home today).
As we've all seen, ND is interesting in some of our techs, though they aren't real forthcoming about what they wish to pay for those techs.
I think we need to put together ideas along those lines:
1) Gold: how much are the techs worth, considering devaluation? Whatever the number we come up with, it should be a bit less than we charged GoW.
2) Tech: what do we want from them? Is there anything in the medieval era we still want, besides ToG, which is to be our next tech?
3) How do we work in GoW to this? GoW has both Astro and Physics, yes? We have little to no desire for MT. Do we have Metallurgy? Sorry, I forgot to check that when I opened the last turn.
It seems to me that if GoW and GS both have the techs in question the best thing would be for ND to pay us gold. Discounted, of course. By the way, does Lego have Physics yet? If not, depending on what ND is doing for research, we may want to hold off on giving it to them to keep Lego's costs up. The key is what ND is doing right now (are they researching? If so, what, and when will they finish?).
Once we get this era out of the way, here is a possibility for the IA:
Stage 1: GS researches Steam, GoW researches Medicine, ND researches Nationalism. We all trade and move to Stage2.
Stage 2: GS researches Electricity, ND researches Industrialization (or vice-versa, doesn't matter to me), GoW either funnels cash to the two of us or researches Sanitation or somesuch.
Stage 2 is a little fuzzy in my mind right now. I'm going on several basic assumptions, which like all assumptions, have the potential to make an ass of me:
1) GS has greater research power than GoW, possibly by a lot.
2) GS and ND are roughly comparable in research power, possibly with a small edge to GS for now.
3) That a 3-way research alliance is possible between these 3 civs, given that ND didn't have iron last turn and could be doing another mass upgrade which might mean another war on Bob.
I think we should explore something like the above plan with GoW & ND in chat if possible.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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The way we control this situation is that we research at the speed that gets us to Sci Method right in time for our prebuild. If we're really the best researcher, we can control the pace somewhat. The key is making sure we can still beat Lego to Sci Method (PRAY Vox gets Nationalism, PRAY!!!).
I think you're right, in that our research power is the highest of the 3 civs. I gave ND some extra credit, because I firmly believe they have a FP (the leader from the war!) down south of the Alamo.
The thing is, do you think GoW or ND can research Medicine as fast as we can research Steam? Possibly. It is the cheapest tech, right? Let's say they can do it in 6 turns, like we figure we can do Steam. 2 for finishing Mag + 6 for ToG + 6 for Steam/Medicine = 14. Then we need Electricity and Sci Method. We can do Elec in ~8 turns, and Sci Method in ~6. Another 14, which means 28 altogether, which IIRC is exactly right for our prebuild. This is where turn order really favors us. If we time the prebuild right, and the tech pace right, we will get ToE.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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More thoughts:
One of my worries is that neither ND nor GoW can research Medicine in 6 turns. We need that tech to proceed along the Sci Method line, and if they can't do it as fast as we do Steam, we lose some time. Obviously we will still be faster to Sci Method via trading than if we researched all this stuff ourselves, though. If they are a turn late or something, fine, we can do max tax to save up for the Electricity push (biggest tech in the path). But I would really like to have an idea of their beaker output before committing to a deal.
Also, we kinda need to know their current research. GoW is going for MT, right? We're going for ToG. What is ND doing? What is GoW going to pay us for ToG? ND?
If we actually get ToE and Hoover, the world will hate us, you know that right?  I relish that thought. Oh, I can TASTE IT!
-Arrian
p.s. Even if we do successfully freeze them out, Lego's looming GA scares me.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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*BUMP*
Ok, right, THIS is the discussion thread. 
From Dom's last post in the log thread:
quote:
In any case, there's no point in getting angry about this. Let's assume everyone is playing to win and see what we can do with what we're given. We need to react and adjust to this set of circumstances, not complain about them (even though they are admittedly frustrating). |
Agreed. I felt the need to vent my frustration, but I'm done now. No more whining (for now, anyway, ).
So how to proceed? My suggestions:
1) Write back to ND, tell them we feel that disrupting Lego was crucial to preventing them from winning, and we are obviously dismayed that ND would actually stand by and let Lego win if it became clear that they would without military action.
Regarding technology, we remain interested in trading with ND, and would really appreciate it if they would respond to an offer of ours they don't like with a counteroffer. Or at least give us some sense of what we're bidding against. We're willing to negotiate, but it takes 2.
2) Inform GoW of ND's stance and indicate that it seems GAUL is dead. Ask them how they feel about this. Our stance, obviously, is a team that is down but not necessarily out, and we're looking for a way to deal ourselves back in.
3) We need to develop a plan that somehow works to the benifit of GoW and GS. There is no point in trying to convince another team to do something we want them to do, but is contrary to their interests.
#3 is the killer, isn't it?
I see two basic ways forward:
1) GoW, with GS assistance, attacks ND. Not sure this helps matters, though.
2) GoW and GS team up on a very organized, very specifc amphibious (marines) strike on Legoland, leaving GoW with most of their firepower at home to deal with ND should ND assist Lego.
Or there is always the option of "do nothing" but I don't see how either GS or GoW can expect to win that way. ND, like Dominae says, may really think they can beat Lego in a buildoff (even if we disagree). And I for one believe them when they say they're ok with losing in the end to Lego if the only way to prevent that is attacking Lego.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
... and I'll be damned if Lego shouldn't get the gold star for diplomacy award in this game. It seems as if they've caught every break, but I'd bet a limb this history is more to do with their actions rather than blind luck. |
No doubt.
Somehow they've managed to convince their biggest rival and potential enemy to instead be their friend and ally. That in and of itself is worthy of winning an award for diplomacy.
Anyway, if the current situation holds, it comes to this: do we go down swinging and if so, who do we swing at? ND is the obvious choice, since if we can convince GoW to go for it, we can both hit them with a land invasion.
There is definitely part of me that would love to hit Lego with a surprise amphibious assault, but they have clearly invested in their navy already and will do so in the future, and with Magellan's, I don't expect we would have much success.
And then there is the possibility of hitting GoW. Just fer fun, like. The sheer unmitigated illogic of it would, in a sense, be beautiful. We've been so logical all game long, and where did it get us?*
-Arrian
* - actually, all things considered, it got us far. But nevermind that, I'm on a roll.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:24
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I did see Theseus post his phone number to Arrian, so....
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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From my side, it is a definate no. ND and GoW split the 2600 beaker cost for one tech, in return they get the 3000 beakers we invested, and all the benefits of 600 shields on top of that? They have to be crazy to even consider it.
The thing is the following: We do most of the trouble, we get most of the gain. If they don't want to help us, fine, they hand the game to Lego, who doesn't need anybody's help. They gain nothing.
I say we split the difference in the middle: ND and GoW together make sure we get Medicine in time so that Lego can't beat us to it, they receive Steam and Electricity in return. They have more then a 4 to 1 return on their beaker investment, and that's all they are going to receive. If they don't do it, they receive nothing.
If they don't accept, f*** them, and we go at it alone. ND nor GoW can't beat us, Lego will probably beat us (unless they are unlucky in receiving Nat from Vox), and we race ahead of the pack by 4 techs.
DeepO
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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I am generally in favor of try to trade with ND, and cutting them favorable deals, because even a deal that is a tad lopsided can be better than none at all.
HOWEVER, their current offer is total garbage. **** them.
I say we offer to assist GoW monetarily ourselves. Have we ever gotten a sense from them what they would need to finish medicine when we want them to finish it? I know we're not swimming in cash, but we do have some. Worst comes to worst, we can pull up for 1 turn (no more than 1, I'd say, or the risk becomes too great).
The deal I would offer GoW is this: steam power, plus 300 gold to assist their research, in exchange for medicine on TurnX (as fast as they can get there, damnit!). In addition, we offer them atomic theory FOR FREE at a later date, if they agree to 20-turn no-trade agreements on steam and AT.
I think that's a pretty sweet deal for GoW, but yet it still helps us get what we want.
-Arrian
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12-02-2004 19:23
Oh, I forgot that. I don't have a real good picture of the IA tech tree in my head (I have a much better feel for the medieval age).
And, being two warbuilders...
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