12-01-2003 02:35									#1
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Thought I would start a new thread - the other is getting fairly long. And since we have a new message in from ... not GS, but Lux, thought this was an appropriate time.

Looks like they are keen. I'm a bit hesitant to stop our iron research - (that is what they are implying when they want to oknow how close we are - whoever is closest completes and shares it - the other abandons it and moves onto soemthing else.). In a perfect world - hey great. But what if they are chatting with GS, and GS has shared the situation on Estonia with them. Wouldn't we be the fools to stop researching. Then again - if they are legit about the trades ... it has potential.

Here's the message. I would like to get back to them soon.

Important Message from Lux Invicta
Greetings, BetaHound! I hope you got my message about our interest in establishing a possible tech agreement for the future. I have just spoke with Trip, and he seems to love the idea of helping each other in the tech race against other civilization. After all, what better than to have the two scientific civ in this game to stick together? The future looks bright to me, Lux and Vox, as their scientists cooperate to advance this world.

Anyway, I don't know if your senate held any meetings about such topic, but Trip and I went through great details about what would benefit the land of Lux and Vox the most. Currently our knowledge of your understanding of the world is a bit sketchy to us. As far as we know, you guys can do basic crafting skills that we Lux Invicta have learned long ago, Mansonry and Bronze Working. We also understand your alchemists are working hard to create a better alloy than bronze, which we already have mentioned are doing as well. And finally, you guys have the knowledge of burying the dead, which we also have.

Which leads to this. Trip and I feel, according to our current knowledge of Voxian's understanding of the world, that as soon as their wiseman are finished with the production of this better alloy which you call iron, the best choice for next research topic would be Mysticism I am sure your wiseman considered this possibility. It is the next step up in the tree with ceremonial burial . To tell you the truth, our wiseman wants to learn this secret ourself, but the funding is limited that Mysticism doesn't come up as a priority for our nation. We need to learn secrets with more pressing needs, which we will share with you, if you only cooperate with us in researching this tech for us.

Last but not least, We would like to know just how much turn it will take for you to finish Iron working. Perhaps we can see who can finish faster and help out the other? It's just a thought looming on my mind, but I'd appreciate it if you reveal us this information, so that we can better decid and plan the tech trades, should you agree to take part in this wonderful co-operative research agreement.

Thanks!~
Calc

	12-01-2003 08:47									#2
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I see where they are coming from and IMO, I think we should be honest with them to let them know how many turns we have left for Iron Working - what harm can it really do and it will show our openess to the tech-trading sceme. By telling them how many turns we have left does not mean that we have to change our research priority...and to be quite honest I'm actually curious how many turn they have left for it. What do you all think?

	12-01-2003 12:10									#3
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PM from Sir Ralph :

quote: Please accept trade deal To Eli and Dissident, whoever plays the next Voxian turn. Without any role play stuff, as I'm tired and need sleep. You have yet to hit "Accept" and then "Send" in the diplomatic screen popping, concerning the tech deal. Without this, the deal is not working. We accepted it, under the condition, that the Alphabet vs Iron Working deal in a couple of turns will be accepted too. About all other issues, our diplomats will contact you soon.

	12-01-2003 12:34									#4
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yeah got that. And you know about it. We will hit accept when the next turn comes.

	12-01-2003 12:38									#5
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about the pottery thing. Someone mentioned they didn't think GS had it when we made first contact. But we had no way of knowing which techs they had. I still think they got that from a hut. As pottery and ceremonial burial are popular things to get from huts. I am suprised they got the wheel so fast. Again I never figured out how many beakers and turns that worked out to.


But still there is good reason to be wary of abandoning our research on iron working. We have been researching this forever. And so have they I'm sure. We may just have to cut our losses on this one and both continue to research it. But after Iron working we should not research the same techs anymore.

	12-01-2003 20:56									#6
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And how are they able to have the Alphabet in a couple of turns as well??? I thought that it was their next research path - and that it would take them 20+ turns to research. He says COUPLE of turns.

What gives? They started with masonry and c.burial. They now have pottery (hut?), the wheel, and Alphabet. And we are still researching our first, albeit more expensive tech. I don't care how good they are - they must have either popped a number of huts - or they have a trading partner at their end.

	12-01-2003 21:47									#7
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I think the term "a couple of turns" is just a figure of speech - it will most likely take them 15-20 turns to get alphabet, but in the grade sceme of things, it's a couple of turns.

	12-01-2003 23:02									#8
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Witt - I hope so. I am getting inreasingly uneasy about doing any trade. I believe it was Eli who voted against it.

I have gone back and forth in my mind on this one. But I would sure like to force them to research bronze working. That would take them a pile of turns, and then they would have to research iron working, get a source, connect it, and produce swordsmen.

NOPE - the trade works - I just mapped it out on a piece of paper - sort of like a Gant chart used in project mgt.

Vox - we have iron working in 12 turns.

GS - Option 1 - no trade

They research bronze working - say 20 turns (just estimating here - they have a couple turns in so far, and seem to have a faster research rate than us - ie more gold from improved tiles.). Then they produce spearmen. They then start researching iron working - say 25-30 turns.

This means:

1. they won't be able to produce spearmen for 20 turns.
2. they will have 45 turns to go before iron working.
3. but we will likely face hassles from warriors and chariots in the meantime. This may inhibit our ability to get iron.

GS - Option 2 - trade.

They move to Alphabet - say 25 turns to reasearch. Then we say no to the second trade. Which forces them to research iron working. Say another 25-30 turns.

This means:

1. they will be able to produce spearmen now. It gives them a 20 turn headstart relative to above in producing spearmen. This is significant.
2. they will actually have longer to go to get to iron working!!!! (this is a key point)
3. we buy some time while they are reseaching Alphabet, which should allow us to get the road south built (which we will need to move an Immortal force quickly), one or more cities built south of the chokepoint, iron identified and hooked up (hopefully), without the hassles mentioned above.
4. we get the wheel which we can hopefull deal to Lux for something else.

This is a close one. The only downside to the trade is that it allows them to start producing spearmen now - but look at it this way. I would rather have them produce spearmen as opposed to chariots. And an immortal can kill a spearman almost as easily as a warrior.

And as I said above if we pull back on the deal now, we are going to be facing chariot rushes for the next umpteen turns. That would be ugly.

Any thoughts?

(I acknowledge that my number of turns for research may be off - I was just using estimates for illustrative purposes.)

(and the logic above may fall down if they already have Alphabet - which they may, and if we don't trade in 12 turns when we have iron working - they can commence that research right away. They may be bluffing us here about them switching to Aplahabet. Sir Ralph did say a couple of turns. Maybe he let something slip.)

	12-01-2003 23:24									#9
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I hear what you are saying. We will finish this deal and see where we stand after we get Iron Working. The availability of iron will dictate much of our strategy.

	12-01-2003 23:24									#10
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Their chariots can't hurt us. I'll explain why in another thread (should have it's own discussion).

	12-01-2003 23:32									#11
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I dont know where to put it, so it'll be this thread :

Jon Miller was banned for a few days.

	12-01-2003 23:41									#12
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For what? Did he spam or have a DL?

	12-01-2003 23:50									#13
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I think that, with the threat of Chariots gone, we want to trigger at least a small war with GS. We can sacrifice one of our warriors, and they can't get ANYTHING!

	12-01-2003 23:55									#14
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Well - all of us but Witt are on-line - including jon. We may want to get his view before he is off-line for awile.

I got a similar message, Eli.

	13-01-2003 00:20									#15
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Get to the mIRC channel everyone.

	13-01-2003 00:23									#16
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Where is it?

	13-01-2003 00:24									#17
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On the Apolyton server. #VoxControli.

	13-01-2003 00:27									#18
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Thanks.

	13-01-2003 04:19									#19
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Just in from GS. I say no to mini-map stuff. And they may well be bs'ing about their end of the continent. I think it is quite interesting how curious they are about our connection to the next continent. I think we should say we have a land link. And that we are on very good terms with our neighbours.

Cartography
[Sent in two parts to BetaHound; Copies to Dissident, Eli, and Jon Miller]

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

I did not think to say it in my earlier message, but thank you very much for the information you have provided us. As I watch events unfold in our councils, your new openness seems to be doing even more to undo the damage from our earlier tensions than I had hoped for. Indeed, Sir Ralph, our glorious leader, has gone from being one of our leading skeptics to being willing to trust that you will accept our trade proposal without waiting for an additional response from you. We can only hope that his faith will not be disappointed.

In regard to your interest in the geography of South Estonia, Tim is on the north end of what we call the Spinebreaker Mountains and Willy has entered what we call the Desert of Tears. Waters from the Spinebreaker Mountains come together to form a river we call the Flood of Tears, which borders the western edge of the desert. (By the way, we may someday be able to arrange an irrigation project to your lands if you are completely without fresh water for irrigation. Of course the scale of such a project is far beyond what would be practical until our nations are larger and more prosperous.)

South of the desert is a band of plains generally two tiles from north to south. Eye of the Storm is founded as the River of Tears enters this band, and has the mixed blessing of access to flood plains that may help it grow or die as the Generator of Fortune sees fit. Our second city, Hurricane, overlaps our capital next to where the river empties into the ocean. South of the plains, as the land narrows toward its southern tip, we have a region of grassland small enough that a single city could cover more than two thirds of it (although good use of coast can stretch its use farther).

On the western side of the continent, Tim has seen essentially all of the grasslands and forests that the area he is in has to offer. The rest is almost all hills, mountains, and a coastal desert, until a few tiles south of Willy’s latitude where the strip of plains reaches that coast. At its widest, the land stretches less than a tile west of what Tim has seen, and the land narrows to the south before reaching the band of plains.

We hope your cartographers can make good use of this description in developing at least a rough sketch of South Estonia. It is only too bad they do not yet have the skill to develop true maps.

Speaking of cartography, there is still an area of the continent that we have been left in the dark regarding. Just as North Estonia and South Estonia are separated by an isthmus and yet are, in a sense, part of the same continent, it would seem that so too is another land that you say is connected to North Estonia. We would greatly appreciate whatever information you can provide about that land, and would find it difficult to determine what should be regarded as fair borders without knowing more about that region.

(continued on a separate camel)


(continuation from the previous message)

There is one other matter that is puzzling our cartographers (and the rest of us too, for that matter). You referred in your message to the “Sierra Centralis.” Your only explanation of that term was as the mountains to your explorers’ north. Some think you may be referring to the northern end of what we call the Spinebreaker Mountains (of which even the northernmost ridge is closer to our capital than to yours), while others think you are referring to other mountains farther north. If you would clarify exactly which mountains you are referring to, it would be appreciated.

By the way, although the making of full maps is beyond us, our cartographers do have sufficient skill to make a more limited form of map that for some reason they call a “minimap.” (Perhaps they do so because it offers only minimal information compared with the kinds of maps they would truly like to be able to make.) If your cartographers have a similar ability, we might be able to arrange an exchange of such minimaps to gain a more complete picture of the continent than words alone can provide.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	13-01-2003 07:35									#20
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This is the message sent to GS.

The trade is a 'go".

Warriors should be pulled back to the last mountain to the north of the eastern chain, and on the west coast - one of the mountains two tiles in that will ensure, when in conjunction with the warrior on the east, a view of all comings and goings from the south.

Please post screen shots. Thanks.

The message -

Dear Nathan - and Sir Ralph of GS.

Greetings dear sirs. Thank you for your plethora of recent correspondence. It is much appreciated, and has kept our translators and analysts, to say nothing of myself, quite busy.

But, to cut to the chase. We have agreed to the tech trade, and both phases of it. The first phase should be concluded shortly. We see this as a strong fundamental building block to peace, given that we are willing to relinquish our early military advantage - as discussed in my previous letter.

We are not overly happy about the warrior arrangement. Thud ends up being much closer to our core of civilization than our warriors are to yours. That being said, we are willing to go along with it in the short term, as a demonstration of our good will. If you leave Thud on the hill, he will be able to observe all comings and goings from North Estonia and should bring you the level of comfort about our peaceful intentions that you feel you need. We would have been happier with the Sierra Centralis - and to clarify that point - that is the range of mountains that Willy and Tim, our two most southern warriors, are presently in. As agreed, and as suggested by you, they will pull back to positions in this mountain range.

There were issues of geography that need to be addressed as well, and they will be. In that regards, we thank you for your recent description of your lands.

But, to be honest, it is late. I am tired - and my bed beckons. I hope you understand.

To our continued and constructive relations...

Yours truly,

BetaHound
VFA, Vox Controli

	13-01-2003 12:26									#21
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I feel we just remain ambiguous about our connection to the other continent. I just hate blatantly lying

And I see you agreed to both phases of the trade deal. I feel we do have much more discussion about giving them Iron Working. but that is fine for now. This will ease their tensions and hopefully they will not see the need to build up their defenses too much

Do not let them know about our uneasiness about giving them Iron Working. We'll just leave the corresondance you sent at that. It is a good message and should please them for now.

Now it is just wait and see...

	13-01-2003 13:02									#22
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Pretty well had to agree to both ends of the deal - for now. Otherwise, if they got a hint that we would not do the deal in the future, they would likely start researching it now, which would really kill any advantage we have out of it. We need them to get very committed to research on Alphabet'

And I agree Dissident with your take about perception and military preparedness. This could work to our advantage. That was one of the big points jon was pushing in wanting to make this deal.

Last edited by Beta on 13-01-2003 at 13:41

	13-01-2003 13:38									#23
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Proposed response to Lux. Comments before it goes out?

I was going to mention as well that we are reluctant to part with iron working as we have certain 'pressures' at home. Thoughts on this?


CalcII - greetings to you, Trip, and the people of Lux Invicta from we of Vox Controli.

I trust all is well with you. I am responding to your recent correspondence. Yes - we have discussed the potential of a joint tech research and trade arrangement. We are prepared to embark with Lux on such a course. As we have stated previously, we can see tremendous benefits for both our civilizations.

I have also been authorized to tell you that we are approximately 11 turns away from realizing the secrets of iron working. As we are of Persian lineage, you can appreciate how key this is to our civilization. We would be loathe to abandon this research given that we have come this far. That being said, however, we are willing to entertain proposals now for trading iron working upon its completion.

We were disappointed to hear that ceremonial burial was not of interest to you, but we understand the realities of this world. However, we have recently acquired knowledge of this circular thing called 'the wheel' - yes, it was a good year - and would like to see how this could be worked into our trade negotiations.

We look forward to hearing from you. Regards.

Sincerely,

BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

	13-01-2003 13:40									#24
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edit: sorry- didnt' see that is for Lux not GS

	13-01-2003 13:43									#25
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yeah that response seems good for now. I'm tired, but it looks good.

	13-01-2003 23:55									#26
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Looks good Beta. I say send it off to Lux. Hopefully, They don't have the wheel yet and have something to trade for it.

	14-01-2003 03:04									#27
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OK - thanks for the feedback. Sending.

Also - in CalcII's mythology thread on the main PTW-demo forum - did you notice this line:

"God of wind, which also Gathering Storm beleives in, is also the god of wind in Lux Invicta's religion."

It is all RP I know, and Meshelic was talking about stuff earlier - but - we should keep an eye open to the possibility of other stuff going on. My sense is that there would be a lot of common connections in terms of members between GS and Lux.

With this in mind - we should not try and talk Lux into researching the Alphabet - why - because if LUx and GS are talking, and word gets back to GS on that - well, it would be pretty clear that we have no intention of trading for GS' Alphabet down the road.

Any thoughts on this?

	14-01-2003 03:27									#28
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Final response sent to Lux - I jazzed it up a bit. And started a lead in to discussing geography - which will likely lead to who you know.

CalcII - greetings to you, Trip, and the people of Lux Invicta from we of Vox Controli.

I trust all is well with you. I am responding to your recent correspondence. Yes - we have discussed the potential of a joint tech research and trade arrangement. We are prepared to embark with Lux on such a course. As we have stated previously, we can see tremendous benefits for both our civilizations.

I have also been authorized to tell you that we are approximately 11 turns away from realizing the secrets of iron working. As we are of Persian lineage, you can appreciate how key this is to our civilization. We would be loathe to abandon this research given that we have come this far. That being said, however, we are willing to discuss proposals now for trading iron working upon its completion.

We were disappointed to hear that ceremonial burial was not of interest to you, but we understand the realities of this world. In fact, stories of Lux mythology are told far and wide, and are of keen interest to our population. Some clerics are even concerned that many citizens have taken to worshipping your deity, Lucius. However, the more enlightened of the clergy see the singularity involved - and feel that your Lucius may be our One. They see it as a sign that our people have a closer, more spiritual connection that goes beyond technology and trade. As a diplomat - I see the common bond as language - and wine of course - both of which allow an openess with you that we probably could not share with all civilizations in this uncertain world.

But, I wander. Back to business. We have recently acquired knowledge of this circular thing called 'the wheel' - yes, it was a good year - and would like to see how this could be worked into our trade negotiations.

If there is anything else you feel we should be discussing in these early talks, please put it on the table - right here beside the cheese and this fine Cabernet-Sauvignon. One item which comes to mind is geography - as each of us shares an understanding of the world unknown to the other. Perhaps we can talk more on this.

We look forward to hearing from you on these matters.

Regards.

Sincerely,

BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

	14-01-2003 05:01									#29
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Gathering Storm had also asked about confidentiality. I said yes - but dressed it up a bit. Incoming and outgoing correspondence. Other way around.

Dear Sir - I am trying to catch up on my correspondence. I seem to have overlooked this letter - and, well, hmm, some others. You see, we of Vox Controli like the number one. Why write several letters, when One will suffice? And you believe that from a diplomat - sorry, Foreign Affairs humor - and poor humor at that - here let's uncork a bottle from the cellar and have a drink.

Which brings us to business. Yes. As you have asked, we will keep the discussions and the business between us confidential, until such time as you tell us it is acceptable to share such information. I think you are getting to know us better. You see that we are trustworthy - even if we were a bit rambunctious there for a few turns. Get's the blood racing though doesn't it? Which is more than I can say for this poor excuse of a wine I have dredged up. Just a minute. My good friend from Gathering Storm, even if you are an economist, deserves better than this.

Here - try this. 2670. Awesome year. Much better. Fairly expensive though. You see, demand is up with population growth. And grapes just aren't what they use to be. So, if I draw a demand curve like this, and a supply curve like this, then the price ... wait, this is like trying to sell a thunderstorm to Gathering Storm. oh - sorry - little saying which has taken hold back home.

Anyways my friend - once again - my assurances as to confidentiality. And of course, er 'burp', excuse me, we expect the same in return. Nice wine, isn't it. If you would confirm that in writing - well, it would be appreciated.

Now - I must get back to that my in-basket of mine. I think I have a couple more letters from you here that need my attention.

Once again, Nathan. Cheers, good health, and a safe journey home.

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

quote: nbarclay wrote on 12-01-2003 19:46: Greetings yet again, BetaHound and Vox Controli, It occurs to me that in our haste to address important issues, we may not have thought to explicitly request that our discussions with you and the information we disclose be kept in the strictest confidence. We would hope that the need for such discretion goes without saying, but we say it anyhow just to make sure there are no misunderstandings. We will, of course, treat information we receive from you as equally confidential. We hope that our not having heard from you recently is merely a sign that you are busy and not a sign of accident or ill health, and look forward to hearing from you again. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	14-01-2003 08:04									#30
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And GS' response. It is good.

Please note their comments about warriors and look-outs. They are OK with us taking up the southern positions of 1 and A. Go for it.

Confidentiality, Forward observers
Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

I apologize if my large number of messages offends your love of the number One, but I hope you can keep in mind the nature of these camel caravans that I must rely on.to deliver my messages. When one caravan is starting to move out, I never know when the next might be ready. So if I have any correspondence for which time is of the essence, I must finish it and send it while I have the chance. If I forget something (or am too busy to address any but the most urgent matters before a caravan leaves), well, I just have to wait for the next caravan.

In regard to the confidentiality issue, I had already said in my previous message, “We will, of course, treat information we receive from you as equally confidential.” But perhaps that portion of the message was damaged along the way, traveling such a vast distance as it had to. In any case, I assure you once again that information we receive from you will be held in the strictest confidence.

From the reports I have been hearing on your warriors’ movements, I am starting to wonder whether there might have been some sort of translation error regarding our concept of posting forward observers. Our intent was that if you desired, instead of withdrawing them toward home, you could station Willy on the northernmost ridge of the mountains he had been exploring (now to his southeast) and Tim three tiles due west of that (“4-4-4” from that mountain in the Language of the Keys). Reports from our explorers indicate that those two locations would combine to provide an ideal vantage point from which you could verify that our forces are not intruding toward your lands. We certainly have no objections if you prefer to station your warriors farther back, but we want to make sure that if you do so, it is for your own reasons and not because you mistakenly think we demand it. (Of course as I wrote before, both sides' forward observers will need to withdraw as our nations' borders expand.)

Well, the camels are about to head out again, and I cannot think of anything else I need to say at the moment. Best wishes to you, BetaHound, and to all your people.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm,
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

P.S. I am somewhat puzzled by these strange terms you keep using when talking about economic matters. Our scholars say they sound like they might have something to do with mathematics, but since we have not yet even discovered Alphabet, such concepts are far beyond us. For the present, my economic modeling must be confined to moving around stones representing various elements of our economy, but I do regard myself as among the foremost practitioners of that skill.