18-01-2003 22:29									#91
	Put an end to popups!

Beta, concerning you contacting our civs that we (in the game) currently have no contact with.... My only question is "Why?" Naturally we need to keep all lines of communications open, but I don't see a big need to, if you will pardon me, "gossip" with other players who we have no current contact with. However, as the FA offical, I know you'll do the right thing. Just be careful that any gossip/talks doesn't get back to the players we do have contact with and bite us in the butt. (A he said, they said situation)

	18-01-2003 23:06									#92
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

the advantage in this case is we could possibly get more info on GS

also, we could use infor on the Lux, ND, Spain continent in the future

Jon Miler

	19-01-2003 01:16									#93
	Remove this text

Could someone sum up what's happening? I don't have much time on weekdays, so I haven't been able to keep up.

	19-01-2003 03:57									#94
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It's all pretty much in the two threads sky - just READ moves and FA Volume 2 since the last time you checked in.

I believe you got e-mail copies of the various screen shots and marked up discussion maps. If not, let me know and I will send them to you.

It has been an interesting couple of days.

	19-01-2003 05:51									#95
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

An idea:

I think we should tell Spain that we're planning on building up an army and navy and going on a campaign against Neu Demogypta. First, this would tell us if Spain really is a gossip (Lux would bring it up). Second, if Spain does tell other people, then GS will hear it, and it MIGHT allay their fears - or cause some sort of confusion, at least. Finally, if word reaches ND, it might make them try and contact us.

	19-01-2003 07:46									#96
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If word got to GS that we were mobilizing - it doesn't matter who we are mobilizing against - you can rest assured that GS would feel threatend and mobilize too! That we do not need.

Besides, the point is rather mute since we need mapmaking for galleys and AFAIK Tell, no one has discovered mapmaking yet. So the "rumor" would be seen for what it is right off the bat.

	19-01-2003 09:00									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Agreed. But don't give up on that creative bent sky.

	19-01-2003 12:06									#98
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You do have interesting ideas.

We don't even know where New Demo is- well we have a good idea. I realize it is a bluff. But we are still so far away from map making. These ideas could have more merit when we do have map making. Also I don't want to tell people we are building an army when that may be our objective. It will just put people on the defensive. It would be better to tell people we are building an army when we don't plan on going to war. This could cause other civs to waste resources on units (although this could be bad if they decide to attack us with those units ).

But yes it would tell us how much Spain gossips. But I think it is agreed they already are a gossip.

because of this don't reveal confidential information like our trade agreement with Lux and information GS revealed about their part of the continent (which may or may not be true). What else should we not reveal?

just a reminder to everyone. Our trade agreement with Lux is top secret. We don't want to spoil relations with them. This could cause civs like New Demo to attack Lux. I know we already know this, just a reminder when we undergo out of game talk.

Loose lips sink ships .

	19-01-2003 21:36									#99
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Dissident just a reminder to everyone. Our trade agreement with Lux is top secret. We don't want to spoil relations with them. This could cause civs like New Demo to attack Lux. I know we already know this, just a reminder when we undergo out of game talk. Loose lips sink ships .

Yes - definitely!!!!! Very good point to empasize, Diss.

	20-01-2003 01:57									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

A better idea than my previous one:

First, this can't be in a letter. It has to be sort of OOC, you know, just talking about the game. We talk about some city spots we're going to take - except the ones we talk about aren't actually the ones we've been planning on. We look for a reaction from GS. If Spain is a gossip, we a) find this out and b) trick GS.

	20-01-2003 09:00									#101
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

apparently Spain and GoW were worried about going to war

at least tihs is waht I saw
"I am very impressed with the RP team today, I thought they would declare war on us"

"what and break the none agression pack?"

" the thing is that, we want to keep the agreements that we make. I know that Togas was a bit upset and I really think that he had gone a bit overboard, but I really don't think that he wants to berak an agreement that was hard fought to make"

brought to you by sitting silent in the chattroom

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 09:15									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

more

they also talked about Togas being too strong a leader

and

GhengisFarb said E_T, but what about that Writ/Horse trade? That wasn't honored?

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 09:15									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

crap, they are so much farther ahead than us!!

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 09:16									#104
	Put an end to popups!

E_T said, can't trade something that we are still researching

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 09:17									#105
	Suffering from ads?

Hopefully they will end up declaring war on each other!

	20-01-2003 09:23									#106
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

E_T said 10 turns or so until writing

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 09:24									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

note this is jsut them talking to eachother on the apolyton channel

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 11:42									#108
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

what's going on? did you play the turn?

	20-01-2003 18:31									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Jon - thanks for the running commentary. Very interesting. And if we can take it all at face value - and there is no reason to think otherwise - then yes, it would appear that others are ahead of us in research.

It also throws out the three continent theory, as it would appear that RP/Spain and GoW are next to each other. Maybe Lux and Neu D are on a landmass by themselves. But if not, then it would appear that from East to West, it goes, Lux, Neu D, RP, GoW, Legoland. I haven't heard anything from or about Legoland.

So - if RP and Gow are in contact with each other, and some other civs, there may be lots of tech trading going on, and they may well be ahead of us. Three civs researching and trading together would be ahead of two.

Too bad we have no way of contacting Legoland. They have a peaceful, builder theme, and it would be good to get in a loop with them.

	20-01-2003 21:34									#110
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Any comments on my idea?

	20-01-2003 23:00									#111
	Got spare money?

I'm not sure what you had in mind.

City spots are too general, because eventually we hope to put cities everywhere anyways.

What kind of reaction were you looking for?

	20-01-2003 23:01									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

and yes we are now last in points .

So I'm figuring this is because we are behind in tech. We should catch up with our agreements with Lux. but it will still take some time.

	21-01-2003 00:31									#113
	Suffering from ads?

I think being last in points is also a function of our limited geography. Other than the cows, we do not have any high output food tiles. This has limited our groth realtive to the others. We have done minimal tile improvement because the road is key to us not getting trapped in North Estonia. Hey, c'est la vie. Puts us in a 'sleeper' role. But just wait. We get a few more cities in - get some Immortals produced - take out GS - hey - we're a somebody.

Sky - I understand the intent - but - what city sites do we talk about. We have already told GS that chokepoint us next. We could suggest south of the mountains - but we don't want to scare them into building there any earlier. We could say north of the mountains, but that is in fact where we plan on building. There aren't a whole lot of other choices. We could say northwards, but they already have an idea that space is limited up where we are. It may calm their nerves, but then will be seen as a blatant intent to mis-inform them when their warrior - Thud I think it is - sees a settler go trekking by. I think it will be easier to stick to our plan, and do some fancy talking when GS inquires what we are up to. Not that they could do much about it, though.

And to be honest - I don't know what we gain by finding out whether RP/Spain are gossips or not. It would seem that jon does a fine enough spy job by eaves dropping during chats.

	21-01-2003 02:19									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

see, us being behind is something we have to fix

either by being sneaky, or by war with immortals

Jon Miller

	21-01-2003 02:54									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

At the present, I'm not too concerned about being last as far as the points/score goes, since these do change throughout the game...we just need to concentrate on expansion. If our empire stagnates, this has a detrimental effect on our score...

	21-01-2003 09:47									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think that will improve as we gain tech. We only have 4 after all. Or 5 if we got pottery.

And just to note a lot of gossip is going on esp. on irc. So I think it is safe to say that if we put something out there, many people will find out about it.

	21-01-2003 18:16									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller see, us being behind is something we have to fix either by being sneaky, or by war with immortals Jon Miller

I vote for war.

And in response to Dissdent, I thought we have pottery now - or did the second half of that trade not go through with Lux - the 10 gold and 1 per turn deal? It was agreed to.

And pottery should give us six - masonry, bronze, iron, ceremonial burial, the wheel, and pottery. We are working on our seventh - which we can then trade for an eighth with Lux.

(and a ninth if we want Alphabet from GS. )

	22-01-2003 04:11									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hi - speaking of war with GS, is everyone playing a bit of SP Civ3 involving the Persians and the Egyptians? I have been - 2nd game now. Just the first part of the game - to get a sense of Immortals and spearmen vs spearmen and chariots. Immortals can chew through anything at this point. Get a stack of them next to a city and it is toast. But they do take awhile to get there, and the AI will use chariots to take down any undefended (ie. no spearmen) and especially wounded Immortals. It will also attack a small stack, pull down the spearmen, and then go after the Immortals.

Having some horsemen around for the Persians has been useful to kill off wounded chariots. Then they are immediately killed themselves. This is a moot point as we won't have horsemen anyways.

Roads right to the border - that is the ticket. And even into neutral territory if need be. And camp out on hills and mountains.

Back to my game.

	22-01-2003 04:16									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

yeah we should have pottery. I haven't looked at the game for a while. I can take a peek.


We should update the thread of everything .

I think I'll do that.

Thread of Everything updated. Yes we do have 6 techologies. Lux also has our 6 (since we can't trade ours to them, so I assume they have them). I use this process to figure out what GS has also. The only thing we can trade them is Iron Working. So I assume they possess 5 of our 6 techs.

Last edited by Dis on 22-01-2003 at 04:49

	23-01-2003 00:59									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The time has come. Unfortunately

[To BetaHound, copies to Dissident, Eli, and Jon Miller]

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

At long last, the time has come for the second part of our technological exchange. Our scholars have worked out the basic shape of the letters of our new alphabet, and while they would keep fiddling around with the last few details forever if we let them (you know how scholars can be), we have told them that they need to move on to other tasks. (What good is an alphabet, after all, if they don’t figure out how to use it to write?)

We are still just short of a point where we could present a formal offer of Alphabet through the Interface of the Mystic Game, but if you could initiate the agreement by offering Iron Working on your end of the Interface, I feel confident that we will be able to present Alphabet on our end immediately after. Then, once you indicate to the Interface that you accept the deal, the first major trade agreement between our peoples will be brought to a successful conclusion.

Speaking of Writing, our people would be very interested in some sort of additional trade agreement once we learn that skill. Our fondest wish is to gain full diplomatic contact with other nations, and our people are ready to offer a proposal in that regard. Once our researchers finish learning how to write, we would offer you that knowledge in exchange for helping us to establish formal contact with your immediate neighbor plus some minor, far less valuable technology that you have researched. You would benefit from an exchange of knowledge on terms highly favorable to you, and we would benefit by obtaining contact beyond your borders more quickly than would be possible otherwise. (For that matter, once you learn how to write, you may also be able to arrange contact with more distant nations.)

If we arrange such an agreement, however, we would like it to include “patent” protection (as our first lawyers contemplate calling it when they someday write their Code of Laws) on the technologies involved. Under the concept of a “patent,” each side would retain an exclusive right to sell or trade the technology it researched for some limited time, say twenty turns, after the exchange is completed.

There is no need for urgency in working out the details of an agreement involving Writing, since our Writing project is not expected to be finished quickly. But it seems prudent to go ahead and let you know what we are thinking in order to reduce the risk of duplication of research efforts. Please consider our proposal and let us know what you think when you get a chance.

(Continued on next camel; maybe if we had paper to put our heiroglyphs on instead of these stone tablets... )