19-06-2003 05:00									#181
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We must lock in a Chiv no-resell deal with GS.

Gift them wines if we have to ... we dont want RP to get Chiv.

And we get Chiv in 2 more rounds...

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 19-06-2003 at 05:21

	19-06-2003 05:45									#182
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx FYI, those 'days' NYE was talking I believe were all for 0300... So for North America Monday is Sunday, teus is monday, and wed is teusday....

Sorry... right.

It doesn't matter which day in that case.

	21-06-2003 05:56									#183
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quote: *Shiber> Your team is interested in a WM map for WM map trade, yes? *UnOrthOdOx> Yes. *Shiber> And straight lux for lux trades *UnOrthOdOx> There is still some discussion there. *UnOrthOdOx> Most are, yes, but not official yet. *Shiber> Good, so are we *Shiber> And you are interested in a backup source of iron *UnOrthOdOx> We are also asking what it would take for a 10 turn No-trade to Chiv. *UnOrthOdOx> If we end up needing it yes. *UnOrthOdOx> I just answered all these *Shiber> It's unofficial, just my own personal idea, but would you be interested in a second luxury (as you only have wines for one lux4lux deal) and up to 20 turns of iron when you need it, in exchange for free chivalry? *UnOrthOdOx> Frankly, happiness wise we don't need the lux. It has little value at the moment. I believe we also have 10 or so turns of Iron left, assuming it's honored. *Shiber> From ND, right? *UnOrthOdOx> Speaking of which, can you clarify one thing for me? *Shiber> Sure *UnOrthOdOx> Im not sure the nature of the deal or if I can say who from. Forgive me, but you guys are my expertise, not all the other deals *UnOrthOdOx> What is your code of honor reguarding deals? *Shiber> We respect them *UnOrthOdOx> Would you willingly break a 20 turn lux trade and call it a part of the game? *Shiber> We resent looking for loopholes and such *Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, we respect what we sign our names on. *Shiber> (no disrespect meant in that last remark) *UnOrthOdOx> What I am looking for is would you assume declaring war is part of the game and cutting off a 20 turn deal just an unfortunate side effect? *Shiber> Well, if we are attacked, for instance, we will fight back *Shiber> But we're no opportunists *UnOrthOdOx> Basically. Assuming we are signing the lux deals, would it be safe to also assume that we can also sign a non-aggression for the term fo those deals? (since you wont break them, it's just a formality right?) *Shiber> NAPs are a problem *Shiber> We've had long discussions about these *UnOrthOdOx> Why exactly? *UnOrthOdOx> Im confused. *Shiber> If we sign a NAP with just one Bobian, we will polarize the two remaining civs against that Bobian civ and against ourselves *Shiber> If we sign NAPs with two Bobians, we do the same *Shiber> If we sign NAPs with all three, we limit ourselves greatly *UnOrthOdOx> Based on this, can I assume you are open to getting involved should conflict break out? Should someone invite you that is. *UnOrthOdOx> It also seems to presume that you expect everyone to know of the deal. *Shiber> Now you're trying to fish information out of me *Shiber> I will not be interrogated, UnOrthOdOx *Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, you want to keep your options open, don't you? You never know what might happen tomorrow *UnOrthOdOx> Not what I am meaning. *Shiber> We have no solid plans for intervening in Bobian affairs, though. I can give you my word on that *UnOrthOdOx> I am genuinely confused with the NAP's *Shiber> Come to think about it, we called on Vox's treachery because they broke a NAP *UnOrthOdOx> In your opinion is there even a possibility that GS will sign one? I would hate to be wasting my time trying to sign one. *Shiber> Not for breaking our other treaties *Shiber> And we had a scouting agreement with GoW, which you've broken, but that wasn't in violation of a formal NAP *Shiber> I honestly don't know anymore *Shiber> So no, I suppose that a trade agreement doesn't count as a NAP *Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, we have almost a concensus stating that we should not sign NAPs with Bobians at the moment, but we were not offered anything yet. *UnOrthOdOx> One sec, let me check something. *UnOrthOdOx> Ok. *UnOrthOdOx> I thought I had presented it as "what would you need for a NAP" *UnOrthOdOx> Perhaps not. *UnOrthOdOx> In your opinion, would free wine be enough for the NAP and no-trade on Chiv for 20 turns? *Shiber> Absolutely not *Shiber> Think about this *Shiber> We are replacing a wine for furs deal with a wine for NAP *Shiber> We make no concessions on our part by giving up one source of furs *Shiber> And you make no concessions on your part by giving up one source of wine, unless you have more clients than sources *UnOrthOdOx> You are indeed a different nation to deal with :P *UnOrthOdOx> no offense meant. *Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, a NAP and a no-trade clause on Chivalry for 20 turns is a great concession on our part *Shiber> Not accepting your offer, to me, seems only logical *Shiber> Or perhaps you didn't think this through. If you will, I'm sure that you will come to the conclusion that "sorry, I cannot accept that" was the only possible answer that I could provide *UnOrthOdOx> It wasn't my idea to offer it, let's leave it at that, shall we? I expected similar answers. *Shiber> Ok, we need to come to some sort of an agreement here *UnOrthOdOx> I am a bit confused on the NAP's though. I would have thought that your nation would almost consider a lux trade the same thing. *Shiber> 'No hard feelings to follow business.' Can you sign on this? *UnOrthOdOx> Im of the opinion this is two friends talking and nothing official is occuring. *UnOrthOdOx> And, no, I never take business personal. *Shiber> Good, I was hoping so. Neither do I. *UnOrthOdOx> I assure you that should GoW ever be defeated, Trappings will have a whole lot of fun with even that. *Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, I'll repeat, *Shiber> We have had long discussions within GS on the matter of NAPs. *Shiber> We have come to the conclusions that signing NAPs with 1, 2 or 3 Bobians would result in polarizing 2 civs against us, polarizing 1 civ against us and effectively paralyzing us for a long term, respectively *Shiber> Therefore, we have reached this decision, which is almost a concensus within GS: we will not sign NAPs with any of the Bobian civs for now, however we will pursue further long-term trade. *UnOrthOdOx> I just figured that an ongoing deal was as good as one is what I was saying whether we called it that formally or not. I was wrong, that is fine. *Shiber> Now, let me clarify my take on the situation, *Shiber> Well, if it is a good deal then it is in our best interest to continue it *Shiber> Now, let me clarify my own take on the situation *Shiber> Firstly, Chivalry *Shiber> Right now, we have no pressing need for Chivalry because we are not at war, nor are we planning one. *Shiber> Whereas, you need it for your UU, and for hope to make any achievements in a war on Bob that might break out very soon *Shiber> Also, should you engage in warfare with ND (doesn't matter who'll start it), if you do not manage to conquer ND's source of iron very quickly, you have most likely lost the war *Shiber> Or at least, you will not emerge advantaged out of it *Shiber> In a war with ND, we remain the only civ that can provide GoW with iron (RP can't, ND will block their sea route with their borders if RP joins the war on your side). *Shiber> Therefore, we view a promise for backup iron as something very valuable. *UnOrthOdOx> It could also be seen as an opportunity for GS... *UnOrthOdOx> Which is our fear. *Shiber> Something to prevent your team from losing your most decisive, and possibly (if things go wrong) last war in the game *Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, a total war on Bob presents GS with four opportunities *Shiber> 1. Attack GoW behind their backs. *Shiber> 2. Attack ND behind their backs. *Shiber> 3. Attack RP behind their backs. *Shiber> 4. Continue normal trade with all three civs. *Shiber> I for one prefer 4, but I cannot promise that I will not support other options, should very lucrative opportunities present themselves *Shiber> But you must understand that I am speaking about a speculative future *UnOrthOdOx> Yes. Can you step back and look at your team for a second? *UnOrthOdOx> They have all posted AAR's *UnOrthOdOx> What would you think would be such a teams reaction based on that alone? *UnOrthOdOx> Can you see where there are questions? *Shiber> Reaction to what? *Shiber> Sorry, I'm not sure that I follow *UnOrthOdOx> To a war on Bob. *Shiber> Oh *Shiber> Based on that alone, I cannot draw any conclusions *Shiber> The AARs show that we are honest and open, when such behavior does not greatly disadvantage us in the game *UnOrthOdOx> Why trade for wine when you can get the for free? *UnOrthOdOx> or rather for some units. *Shiber> I don't understand *Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, we want your wine because we have a few large cities and we need to have 10% on the happiness slider just to keep them working *Shiber> We want to use luxuries to be able to reduce that to 0%, and save 10% of our income *UnOrthOdOx> Yes, you also have a large standing army. If we were to already be at war from 2 other civs why not pile on? *UnOrthOdOx> And claim yourself a wine. *Shiber> Honestly, we haven't considered that option *Shiber> Obviously claiming a wine by force, and keeping control over that resource, would be much more painful and costly than just trading furs for it *UnOrthOdOx> Would it? Depends on who invited you to Bob and on what agreement, I would suppose. *Shiber> Yes. If we were offered, say, 10,000 gold, I doubt whether we could refuse or not *Shiber> But for more modest offers, we'd rather keep the peace *UnOrthOdOx> I got to tend to my kids. *UnOrthOdOx> We are attempting a chat for early next week, hope you can make it. *Shiber> I got to sleep *Shiber> It is getting very very late *Shiber> I'll do my best *UnOrthOdOx> Where you from? *Shiber> Israel *Shiber> AOL, I suppose they only serve within the US and Canada *UnOrthOdOx> That's what I thought. It's MORNING there isn't it? *Shiber> Late night *Shiber> Very late night *UnOrthOdOx> Get some sleep. Talk to you later. *Shiber> Wait *UnOrthOdOx> yes? *Shiber> I wanted to ask something *UnOrthOdOx> sure *Shiber> What do you think of my time counter? *UnOrthOdOx> In all honesty, I've only looked at it once when it first started. *UnOrthOdOx> I am REALLY JUST, and I do mean JUST your ambassador. I have no other position or interest in this game. Which is why I may get passionate at times. *Shiber> ok, I won't bother you anymore *Shiber> Oh, there's one more question I would like to ask you *UnOrthOdOx> sure *Shiber> Where do babies come from? *UnOrthOdOx> *UnOrthOdOx> From heaven, I assure you. *Shiber> Why do people always laugh at me? *Shiber> :cry: *Shiber> Ok, thanks for your honesty *Shiber> Now go tend to little Timmy *UnOrthOdOx> Timmy? *UnOrthOdOx> You haven't been reading well... it's *EctArIAN...and schIsmAtIc. *Shiber> I meant your kids *Shiber> I thought you'd understand *UnOrthOdOx> *Shiber> lol *Shiber> lol, go take care of your kids now *Shiber> I will go to sleep *UnOrthOdOx> Ok, gtg. 9 month olds are not renowned for patience *Shiber> http://www.securitywriters.org/counter/, later when you have the time. Tell me what you think! *Shiber> I challenge you to explain the concept of team demogames to them *UnOrthOdOx> I will. *Shiber> In a few years *Shiber> Good night *UnOrthOdOx> like hell, it's impossible. Like explaining everquest *Shiber> lollol *Shiber> "It's a game, but, it's not just a game..." *UnOrthOdOx> yep. *Shiber> "It's like... a community, but it's also a game. That never ends." *Shiber> (other guy) "He's nuts, I tell you..." *Shiber> good night now *UnOrthOdOx> good night. No such nick/channel Session Close: Fri Jun 20 18:51:23 2003

Little chat with Shiber.

Nothing real important, but lots of interesting comments.

	21-06-2003 06:12									#184
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hey, we cross edited!

	21-06-2003 09:34									#185
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I think Shiber is confusing a NAP with a MPP... NAP simply means we will not attack you. In fact, it doesn't even have to be public.

I look forward to chatting with those guys...

	21-06-2003 10:10									#186
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These guys (or Shiber is) stupid.

They say they have no interest in Bob, but then refuse to back it up with any deals.

We need to push these guys..

Tell them we are greatly concerned with their refusal to sign any NAP's. Given they have the greatest army than any civ, their comments about not having any interest in invading bob sounds completely hollow.

We have done nothing to be treated this way, and the more we talk, the more we are beginning to believe GS is going to attack GoW.

Ask them what they can offer to ensure that GoW security is not compromised.

I hate dealing with these guys.

	21-06-2003 20:30									#187
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Unortho, is anything sceduled currently about the chat with GS? Is it Sunday night in NAmerica at 11:00 PM EDT?

	23-06-2003 04:53									#188
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so I can assume the chat isn't happening tonight?

	23-06-2003 05:22									#189
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Remember in negotiations with GS, notyoueither, zeit, or Sir Ralph must be there are YOU ARE NOT negotiating with GS.

SHIBER HAS NEVER HELD ANY INFLUENCE IN THEIR NEGOTIATIONS. He is simply BS and that is all he is.

If you get one of the three mentioned above to agree to something then you have a deal but that is the only way you can rely on anything with them.

Roleplay is going to get Chivalry. They are going to pay someone else money for it or they are going to pay us for it but THEY WILL acquire Chivalry. If we sell it to them WE GET THE MONEY and we make it far less profitable for GS to side with them.

We sell it to GS for a no trade clause and declaring war on us makes them 200 gold richer because they are then free to sell Chivalry to Roleplay.

	23-06-2003 05:53									#190
	Unofficial Chat with nye Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This chat was held yesterday night with notyoueither.

VERY interesting conversation which I suggest you all read and perhaps calm those fears about RP getting Chivalry from GS.

quote: * Retrieving #GoW info... [22:26] [MasterZen] nope [22:26] * notyoueither has joined #GoW [22:26] [notyoueither] hello [22:27] [UnOrthOdOx] Hi. [22:27] [UnOrthOdOx] Good to see you. [22:27] [notyoueither] good to be here [22:27] [MasterZen] welcome to our little neck of the woods [22:27] [UnOrthOdOx] I was trying to meet GF for some RoN action, but he is having connection troubles, nice to be productive anyway... [22:28] [notyoueither] always good to be productive. [22:28] [UnOrthOdOx] Perhaps you can clear some confusion that we have? [22:28] [notyoueither] would love to, if i can [22:28] [MasterZen] we've been getting mixed responses from your team [22:28] [notyoueither] understood. [22:28] [UnOrthOdOx] We are utterly confused with the lack of interest in a non-aggression pact...ie, a pact where we both promise not to declare war... [22:29] [UnOrthOdOx] Is this not an option? [22:29] [MasterZen] which strikes us all the more strange since Shiber and zeit have constantly told us that you had no intentions on Bob [22:30] [notyoueither] ahhh. well, we have a feeling that signing an nap with one power of bob, could destabilize bob [22:30] [UnOrthOdOx] Why exactly? [22:30] [UnOrthOdOx] Who says the others need to know? [22:30] [MasterZen] unless it is made public... [22:30] [MasterZen] it's not an alliance or a mutial-protection pact... it's just a NAP [22:30] [notyoueither] the thinking goes that the other 2 powers might get uptight. they may feel isolated. [22:31] [UnOrthOdOx] From my POV, it seemse that it is in your best interest to sign with EVERYONE if you indeed wish to be builders. [22:31] [MasterZen] if it's private they won't [22:31] [notyoueither] that might precipitate action, when action is not deisred [22:31] [notyoueither] UnOrthO, if we signed with everyone, we would miss out on the fun, should any commence. No? [22:32] [MasterZen] so then you do have intentions [22:32] [notyoueither] no [22:32] [UnOrthOdOx] So you are not discounting POSSIBLE actions? [22:32] [notyoueither] zeit and shiber have been truthful. we have no plans to go to bob [22:32] [UnOrthOdOx] At present. [22:32] [MasterZen] so if you don't have intentions, why are you considering joining in on the "fun"? [22:33] [UnOrthOdOx] and for the record, that is not an answer to the question. [22:33] [notyoueither] well, we would be fools to sit to one side if matters having a major impact on us were taking place [22:33] [notyoueither] and we were to do nothing [22:34] [MasterZen] how exactly does something in our continent impact you? [22:34] [UnOrthOdOx] MZ, please, we both know the answer there... [22:34] [UnOrthOdOx] This IS civ after all. [22:34] [notyoueither] true [22:34] [UnOrthOdOx] They don't want a superpower. [22:34] [MasterZen] of course, but this is diplomacy [22:35] [UnOrthOdOx] Perhaps we should ask, then, what would it take for you to join in? [22:35] [notyoueither] oh. good question. [22:36] [UnOrthOdOx] And the one I personally am confused on... [22:36] [MasterZen] or join out? (depending on which side you end up thinking on joining) [22:36] [notyoueither] probably our appraisal that our interests were at stake to a large degree. [22:36] [notyoueither] that would get us examining scenarios [22:37] [MasterZen] any scenario you can picture has one of us 3 bobians getting destroyed [22:37] [UnOrthOdOx] Would Gathering Storm ever break a 20-turn trade agreement by being the agressors? [22:37] [notyoueither] we do not wish that [22:37] * Hot_Enamel has joined #GoW [22:37] [UnOrthOdOx] hey He. [22:37] [UnOrthOdOx] HE [22:37] [notyoueither] hi [22:37] [Hot_Enamel] Hi [22:37] [MasterZen] hey [22:37] * MasterZen sets mode: +o Hot_Enamel [22:37] [Hot_Enamel] Just lurking .. [22:38] [notyoueither] Good question, UnorthO. We have not discussed that. It would go against our nature, though. [22:39] [notyoueither] do you mind if i dispense with the caps. i find the shift key a bother [22:39] [UnOrthOdOx] Not at all. [22:39] [MasterZen] np [22:39] [notyoueither] thank you [22:39] [UnOrthOdOx] Im just used to typing...stories and all. [22:39] [notyoueither] no doubt [22:39] [UnOrthOdOx] 80 WPM... [22:39] [MasterZen] I'm just used to arguing [22:40] [notyoueither] on chicken back? [22:40] [notyoueither] [22:41] [UnOrthOdOx] Would you then be more likely to join on the side of the one receiving the aggression? [22:41] [UnOrthOdOx] In other words. [22:41] [MasterZen] help the underdog.. [22:42] [UnOrthOdOx] Or pile on to prevent a monopoly of Bob. [22:42] [notyoueither] no. gs would not make decesions based on being paladins [22:42] [MasterZen] in other words then you would value a long-term relationship as a basis on which to support? [22:42] [UnOrthOdOx] Dear god, I hate lawfull good... [22:43] [MasterZen] hahah... me too [22:43] [UnOrthOdOx] Im more a Neutral-neutral myself. [22:43] [notyoueither] we would be very unlikely to pile on as well, unless there were compelling reasons [22:44] [MasterZen] sound's to me you'd be better off neutral [22:44] [notyoueither] that is the path we are sterring vis-a-vis bob [22:44] [notyoueither] *stearing [22:45] [UnOrthOdOx] Do you have any long term plans yet? [22:45] [notyoueither] may i ask, is GoW concerened that you are a target of an attack? [22:45] [UnOrthOdOx] Yes we are. [22:45] [UnOrthOdOx] We hope we are not, but must plan for the worst. [22:46] [UnOrthOdOx] Which, without a NAP would include GS. [22:46] [notyoueither] ahhh. i feel safe in assuring you that attacking GoW is about the least likely thing for us to do. [22:47] [UnOrthOdOx] May I ask something completely off topic? [22:47] [notyoueither] sure [22:47] [UnOrthOdOx] Do you guys have long-term plans? [22:47] [notyoueither] yes, as far as they can be made in an mp mad house [22:48] [UnOrthOdOx] and are you opposed to making them together, perhaps? [22:48] [UnOrthOdOx] Looking at this game, GS will need to go a conquering eventually. [22:48] [UnOrthOdOx] Unless, of course you are shooting for a diplo win. [22:48] [notyoueither] possibly. the same can be said of some other teams [22:49] [UnOrthOdOx] Yes, of course. [22:49] [MasterZen] you know, if only 3 civs survive and Vox is one of them, a diplo victory is actually feasable... [22:49] [notyoueither] or, we could cut the crap and just fess up that conquest is part of this game. [22:49] [UnOrthOdOx] Everyone, almost, needs to. [22:50] [notyoueither] ahem. did i say that? [22:50] [UnOrthOdOx] Yes, let's go ahead and cut the crap out. [22:50] [notyoueither] go ahead [22:51] [UnOrthOdOx] If there is a conflict on Bob, and we end up NOT being the target, is there a team you would prefer us to back? so to speak? [22:51] [UnOrthOdOx] Also, in the future, do you guys have your eye on anywhere in particular? [22:52] [UnOrthOdOx] Nevermind... you likely need a map first. [22:52] [notyoueither] very good, and direct questions [22:52] [UnOrthOdOx] Hey, that's me. [22:52] [UnOrthOdOx] Tact is no my forte [22:53] [MasterZen] neither is mine [22:53] [MasterZen] but nye already knows that [22:53] [notyoueither] i do not need a map to know who will win this game if left unmolested. we have done a tile count and come up extremely short. [22:53] [UnOrthOdOx] Which is why I don't even try MZ... [22:53] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok...can you say? [22:54] [notyoueither] what that means is, there are a certain number of land tiles to be expected in a game with these settings. [22:54] [notyoueither] we cannot see a huge number of them, even after seeing all of bob [22:55] [notyoueither] we did not need to float past lego major and minor to know that [22:55] [UnOrthOdOx] So we are both then agreed that eventually Lego will become the dominating team if left unchecked? [22:55] [notyoueither] yes [22:55] [notyoueither] that is clear [22:55] [UnOrthOdOx] We can also agree how difficult a naval assault can be as well? [22:55] [notyoueither] doubly clear [22:56] [notyoueither] forget it after rr's [22:56] [MasterZen] and should we wait till RR it will be well near impossible [22:56] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok, we are all together then. [22:56] [UnOrthOdOx] Would you be opposed to planning that far ahead together? [22:56] [notyoueither] it seems we are thinking along parallel paths [22:57] [UnOrthOdOx] And, what is the nature of the Voxodus, if we can ask? [22:57] [notyoueither] we would welcome the possibility of longer term relations [22:57] [UnOrthOdOx] Basically, is Vox going to Lego? [22:57] [notyoueither] yes [22:57] [notyoueither] we believe so [22:58] [UnOrthOdOx] Are they willing to become a staging point in the future? or was that not a part of the deal? [22:58] [notyoueither] it is not said in so many words, but it seems clear. unless rp is in the weeds [22:58] [notyoueither] no future deals. they leave and they live. we help them leave, in planning and execution [22:59] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok. It seemed like a decent idea to have them as a staging area as well... [22:59] [MasterZen] it's still viable... [22:59] [UnOrthOdOx] Though, trust would be a problem there. [22:59] [UnOrthOdOx] possibly. [22:59] [notyoueither] that would be a very solid idea, if they would agree. [22:59] [MasterZen] just give them some time [22:59] [MasterZen] to "re-settle" [23:00] [notyoueither] there is mention of two distinct legos. linked by a narrow strip [23:00] [UnOrthOdOx] Is there any other teams you are close enough to to also bring in on this? [23:01] [UnOrthOdOx] Surely we can all see the logic. [23:01] [notyoueither] well, all of bob, providing you didn't rip each other to pieces first [23:02] [UnOrthOdOx] Indeed. [23:02] [Hot_Enamel] Re: two distict Legos - Our galley confirms this [23:03] [notyoueither] easy then for lego to seal off? [23:04] [notyoueither] better than a beach head though? [23:04] [MasterZen] in principle we're all for this, however, the situation on Bob, should we be the ones on the recieving end will make it very unlikely we can participate meaningfully if we survive. However, should we be on the "winning" side, yould you consider joining with the winners for this end? [23:05] [UnOrthOdOx] There are basically two options on Bob. [23:05] [Hot_Enamel] Connected by 1 tile .. easily defended just like Eliopolis [23:05] [UnOrthOdOx] RP has plenty of land south. They decide to join ND and attack north and split N/S [23:05] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok, three options. [23:06] [MasterZen] that is our personal nightmare [23:06] [UnOrthOdOx] We join RP and attack ND splitting N/S... [23:06] [notyoueither] i can see [23:06] [UnOrthOdOx] Or we join ND and split it screwy fashioned. [23:06] [UnOrthOdOx] I can assure you RP has no interest in the second option. [23:06] [MasterZen] "screwy"... haha [23:07] [MasterZen] alhtough they are jittery about getting attacked by ND [23:07] [UnOrthOdOx] Or that is a front from Togas. [23:07] [MasterZen] as are we [23:07] [notyoueither] hmmm. it is as we have calculated. [23:07] [UnOrthOdOx] RP can also stay put and eventually dominate Bob. [23:08] [notyoueither] that is part of our calculation. [23:08] [notyoueither] so that leaves you and nd v them, or them and nd v you [23:09] [MasterZen] look, because of our land and our position, it will be impossible for us to stay neutral [23:09] [notyoueither] very clear [23:09] [MasterZen] we will either get thrashed by them because they think we are targets [23:09] [UnOrthOdOx] Or ND going nuts. They are a bit thinking all of Apolyton is against them, who can blame them? [23:09] [MasterZen] or we must seek to join the likely victory, or the one which we get most benefits of allying with [23:10] [MasterZen] *victor [23:10] [notyoueither] i would imagine you have sounded out rp and nd thoroughly in these matters [23:11] [MasterZen] Should an ND-RP war break out, we will take sides [23:11] [UnOrthOdOx] "Sounded out" Togas? LOL [23:11] [MasterZen] hahaha [23:11] [notyoueither] hehe. loud? [23:11] [MasterZen] I try though... [23:11] [MasterZen] but you know Togas... [23:12] [MasterZen] RP has been rather quiet lately [23:12] [UnOrthOdOx] I got to get him in on a poker game. [23:12] [notyoueither] rl poker? [23:12] [UnOrthOdOx] Sure. [23:13] [UnOrthOdOx] Im in Cali often enough... [23:13] [notyoueither] oh. you have to, not you have [23:13] [notyoueither] brb [23:13] [UnOrthOdOx] MZ, are you logging? [23:13] [MasterZen] yes [23:14] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok, I gtg, actually. [23:14] [MasterZen] np [23:14] [UnOrthOdOx] I'll leave it in your hands from here then. [23:14] [MasterZen] [23:14] * UnOrthOdOx has left #GoW [23:14] [MasterZen] i'd still like to talk a little more if that's no problem... [23:15] [notyoueither] back [23:15] [notyoueither] which side of an nd-rp war would gow favour, if i may ask? [23:16] [MasterZen] good question [23:16] [MasterZen] on the one hand, [23:16] [MasterZen] we'd like to have ND as our ally for "neighborly" reasons [23:17] [MasterZen] however, we greatly fear that ND would eventually backstab us [23:17] [MasterZen] especially since we'd have to split the continent in a "screwey" fashion [23:17] [MasterZen] on the other hand, [23:18] [MasterZen] it'd be much easier to split the continent with RP, and we'd have less to fear from them in the long run [23:18] [MasterZen] so, I guess it would all end up being almost a last-minute decision [23:19] [notyoueither] hmmm. you are in an interesting position [23:19] [MasterZen] and a very difficult one mind you [23:19] [MasterZen] you know, if we had RP's land we could afford neutrality. Sadly as it stands we can't. [23:19] [notyoueither] i can see that [23:19] * Hot_Enamel is now known as Hot_Enamel_away [23:20] [MasterZen] hopefully getting Chivalry might dissade the others from considering us a target, at least for now [23:20] [MasterZen] hence the importance we attach to a no-trade clause on Chivalry [23:20] [notyoueither] riders are effective [23:20] [MasterZen] it's really there to save our necks against Ansars or if RP is hoarding horsemen [23:20] [MasterZen] very effective, one of my favorite units [23:21] [MasterZen] but against 2 civs it's still a very difficult call... [23:21] [notyoueither] we understand the need for an nta. we have no problem with the same we got for feudalism. [23:21] [MasterZen] then you also understand why we are also pushing for a NAP [23:22] [MasterZen] if we end up getting gang-banged by ND the LAST thing we want is for GS to also join in... [23:22] [MasterZen] and if we end up being on the winning side, we'd greatly appreciate a long-term relationship to take on Lego [23:22] [notyoueither] yes. however, i can assur you, gow sits on nothing that we desire. [23:22] [MasterZen] what? you saying you don't want our delicious wines!!!! [23:23] [notyoueither] in fact, as i review this conversation, a healthy gow seems to be in our interests [23:23] [notyoueither] ahh, yes. wines. we do want those. we are happy to trade for them though [23:24] [notyoueither] i should ahve said. nothing we desire enought to create an enemy [23:24] [MasterZen] just kidding about the wines, we're actually using them to get your stormchickens drunk and take you out [23:24] [notyoueither] haha [23:24] [MasterZen] oops, just revealed our long-term plans... :P [23:25] [notyoueither] you don;t want to see them with worse aim. eventually it has to warp and they'd be deadly accurate [23:25] [MasterZen] hahaha [23:25] [MasterZen] although with a hangover... :P [23:25] [notyoueither] true. we could live with it though [23:25] [MasterZen] well, we were hoping to have another "official" chat with you guys perhaps this week [23:26] [notyoueither] that would be good [23:26] [notyoueither] unortho's hours? [23:26] [MasterZen] yes, UnOrthO was arranging it [23:27] [notyoueither] good [23:27] [notyoueither] is there anything else? [23:27] [MasterZen] this, as you can imagine is a more informal affair, but I think it's a start [23:28] [MasterZen] so you can understand the rather "peculiar" position GoW is in, and how our relationship with GS fits in [23:28] [notyoueither] a very good start [23:28] [notyoueither] i can see your pov [23:28] [MasterZen] good, I consider it a very good start too [23:29] [notyoueither] i hope to see you soon then [23:29] [MasterZen] great [23:29] [notyoueither] bye then [23:29] [MasterZen] you logging this? [23:30] [notyoueither] i hope so. can you send it to me if i goofed? [23:30] [MasterZen] sure [23:30] [notyoueither] thanks [23:30] [notyoueither] bye [23:30] [MasterZen] see ya at ISDG [23:30] [MasterZen] hahahaa [23:30] * notyoueither has left #GoW [01:06] * Hot_Enamel_away has quit IRC (Quit: ) [02:13] * Disconnected Session Close: Sun Jun 22 04:16:33 2003

	23-06-2003 09:35									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I honestly don't see how that calms any fears. They never said anything that I saw about not selling Chivalry to RP. They do from what I have gathered talking to them think that there is about a 90% chance we are plotting to take out ND with Roleplay.

Which I have encouraged them to think.

	23-06-2003 09:50									#192
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I honestly don't see how that calms any fears. They never said anything that I saw about not selling Chivalry to RP. They do from what I have gathered talking to them think that there is about a 90% chance we are plotting to take out ND with Roleplay. Which I have encouraged them to think.

He mentioned at least what they asked us for feudalism:

quote: [23:20] [MasterZen] hence the importance we attach to a no-trade clause on Chivalry [23:20] [notyoueither] riders are effective [23:20] [MasterZen] it's really there to save our necks against Ansars or if RP is hoarding horsemen [23:20] [MasterZen] very effective, one of my favorite units [23:21] [MasterZen] but against 2 civs it's still a very difficult call... [23:21] [notyoueither] we understand the need for an nta. we have no problem with the same we got for feudalism. [23:21] [MasterZen] then you also understand why we are also pushing for a NAP [23:22] [MasterZen] if we end up getting gang-banged by ND the LAST thing we want is for GS to also join in... [23:22] [MasterZen] and if we end up being on the winning side, we'd greatly appreciate a long-term relationship to take on Lego [23:22] [notyoueither] yes. however, i can assur you, gow sits on nothing that we desire. [23:22] [MasterZen] what? you saying you don't want our delicious wines!!!! [23:23] [notyoueither] in fact, as i review this conversation, a healthy gow seems to be in our interests

	23-06-2003 10:14									#193
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

GS will do what ever is in their best interest. If we succeed in the initial strikes they know the end of rp is inevitable. However,they also fear a continent with only 1 power. They see following scenarios.
1)nd/Gow vs rp with rp defeated and a Temporary split of the continent, Followed by a final war for absolute power. due to the nature of the split(it simply is unstable)
2) Gow/Rp vs nd with a northsouth stable split
This is to their liking.
3)ND/RP vs GOW see 1)
They want 2 and will probably try to interceed against either 1 or 3.
The question is how. Since we are planning on 1) thats is our concern.
The thing I would do is throw us off balance by launching an attack toward port isolation then beyond. If sucessful this could end up with bob divided between ND and RP in a stable 2 nation set. We know they have the armies and the cash to upgrade. They certainly have the ships. Our units would be far away at least 3 turns from home and without our help Nd offensive would falter and perhaps GS could bring ND against us. Then rp/ND could split continent. This is some paranoia but is something we must consider. This is the present that vox's defeat gave us. This is just a cold blooded analysis without judging anybody, but remember people act in their best interest. NYE and Sir Ralph are nice honorable people but their goal ultimately MUST be victory.
Aggie

	23-06-2003 10:52									#194
	Inflate your Upload Space

So in summary.

1. We can sell it to GS only.
We can probably squeeze a 10 turn NTA from them.. (Realistically, this will only give us a few turns grace)

2. We can sell it to RP as well, and gain some gold, but
- Our ND allies are strictly against this idea.
- It is easier to get money from GS/Lego than it is tech. They will have plenty of cash to upgrade and rush knights.

3. We can sell to neither.
We are not locked into a delivery date with GS
But this will mean we dont get 200g.
Therefore Lego is the only other team with Chiv, and we will have a 20 turn NTA.


And as I was typing .. I thought about this.

Dear Lego, all of our customers for Chiv have requested gpt agreements. It concerns us that we are giving such a strong military tech to our immediate neighbours, and we now do not have enough cash to upgrade all of our horsemen to Riders. In particular, we know that ND have been doing minimal research and are cashed up.
Could you lend us 300g @ 13% interest (we repay 17gpt for the next 20 turns). To ensure that we wont use any game mechanics to stop the repayment reaching you, we offer a NAP for the same 20 turns.

Regs

	23-06-2003 11:10									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

However, I see 2 steps to achieve victory, and GS is perfectly aware of this:

1.THEY MUST TAKE OUT LEGO
2. THEY MUST NEUTRALIZE BOB

They cannot do this by themselves. Once Lego gets RR, any attempt at wiping them out is practically gone. However, that means a war to take out lego must come before. Can GS become dominant in Bob during what remains of the middle ages and then have the stength to take out Lego of course not!.

Howver, should GS aid ND against us, then ND with ALL of Bob to themselves will be mightier than GS AND Lego which is good for neither of them.

Thus, the logical solution is actually to permit a build-up in Bob against any one civ, then ally with those two remaining civs taking advantage of their post GA-strenght to launch a 3-way attack against Lego. Then kill each other off.

Honestly... I think GS is hard pressed to win this way. Their only hope of victory perhaps is an all-out attack on BOTH Bobian civs after we crush RP. That's what I feel would be the best opportunity they can get.

	23-06-2003 16:05									#196
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

They have always been irritated at the way we "whored" Feudalism (their words not mine) so when they say they want the same deal as Feudalism it means they plan to whore it to everyone else just like we did.

We have Lego locked into a deal, correct? Have we confirmed it?

Do we have ND locked into a deal? What is it?

How about Vox and GS?

If we have everyone locked in but GS perhaps we can make a deal that they have no NTA but have to give us half the profits from any deal they make.

	23-06-2003 20:26									#197
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: We have Lego locked into a deal, correct? Have we confirmed it?

Yes, and yes. Theo + edu for chivalry with a 15 turn NTA.

quote: Do we have ND locked into a deal? What is it?

They're going to pay 100 gold and 5 GPT. Also, they will pay another 100 gold and 5 gpt now for education after our NTA for education expires.

quote: How about Vox and GS?

Vox, no. They wouldn't curently care about chivalry. GS - 200 gold for chivalry, but currently negotiating on details (NTA).

	23-06-2003 23:48									#198
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb They have always been irritated at the way we "whored" Feudalism (their words not mine) so when they say they want the same deal as Feudalism it means they plan to whore it to everyone else just like we did.

We whored it but we honored the no-trade for 10 turns despite incredible diplomatic presure to the contrary by Vox and RP.

We simply have to be smart enough to whore it before they do but guarantee the no-trade. No-trade is far more vital than them whoring it after the no-trade has expired.

	24-06-2003 01:09									#199
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen We whored it but we honored the no-trade for 10 turns despite incredible diplomatic presure to the contrary by Vox and RP. We simply have to be smart enough to whore it before they do but guarantee the no-trade. No-trade is far more vital than them whoring it after the no-trade has expired.

True, but they are looking at getting into the whoring market. Let's face it whoring is extremely profitable, for both those that whore and those that got whored to.

GhengisFarb wonders how many more times we can use the word whore before this starts getting ridiculous...............

	24-06-2003 02:12									#200
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb True, but they are looking at getting into the whoring market. Let's face it whoring is extremely profitable, for both those that whore and those that got whored to. GhengisFarb wonders how many more times we can use the word whore before this starts getting ridiculous...............

That why we must whore before they whore! We have a no-trade clause but not a no-whore clause, consdering that GS likes to hike up prices, I doubt they'll do a better whoring job than the Glory of Whore..ehem... I mean, War.

	02-07-2003 18:13									#201
	Remove this text

quote: zeit, My apologies on the confusion from last week, my mind was surely not fully on this game as I was best man at a friends wedding and had both my dog and my wifes grandmother pass away. To explain what happened a bit, I had created a thread specifically for our trade discussion, and was checking it constantly. However, for some reason, the discussion had moved back to the main diplomacy thread for your team without my knowledge due to my relative lack of participation. As a result, I never learned that your team had agreed to the 10 turn no trade clause, and I was acting on an alternate plan to get those 10 turns (ie, seeing if you would wait). This is all a mistake on my part, and I am copying this into my own teams forum as well. Please express my apologies to GS for the confusion that I created, and we look forward to completing the deal as outlined: Chiv for 200 and 10 turns no-trade, lux for lux. Back to the chat. 2200 GMT could work for me as a start time, but only for the next two weeks. 10:00 GMT would be a better start time for me personally, and I believe Hot_Enamel is normally online around that time as well, though I think the rest of the team would likely be absent from that time. Still, for what little needs to really be done in this chat, it would work fine. This is really more of a friendly chat than the working of isues AFAIK. If 10:00 GMT works for you, what day would be best? Respectfully, UnOrthOdOx

	02-07-2003 18:25									#202
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Great! So I can send GS chivalry in the next turn?

	02-07-2003 21:45									#203
	Increase Your PM Length

Please do.

quote: Dear UnOrthOdOx, Glad to see you're back in business Its good to see that the issue has been settled, The firrst shipment of Furs is already in route, just reply with your Wines and its settled. We also sent you our WM, according to the WM-WM trade agreement. About for Chivalry- Timing is also an issue. If I understand correctly now, it seems there is no problem for you to deliver the tech at the turn you finish the research, right? As for a time to chat- 10:00 GMT is good for me, just not tommorow (July 3rd) and next Sunday (6th)- other than those, any day is okay (hey, that rhymes! ), so just tell me, and I'll be there! Cordially, Zeit.

quote: zeit, We will send along Chivalry next time the save graces our presence. I look forward to seeing the map so I can finish up the next piece of my story as well. Well, Friday the 4th is a holiday here in the states, which makes it look like Saturday the 5th is our best bet. That work for you? UnOrthOdOx

	03-07-2003 20:06									#204
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: UnOrthOdOx, Saturday 10:00GMT sounds great, I'll be there! Thanks for ratifying the agreement, and once again, accept my apologies for the ongoing misunderstandment. One more thing, about the Luxury deal- I havn't mentioned it before, as I wasn't sure how our team sees it, but now it seems we have the official policy: Luxury deals are basically indefinite, and can be cancelled at any time, without any consequences for either party. However, the party choosing to end the deal must give at least 2 turns of warning before he does so (most likely by a technical declaration of war), to give the other party adequate time to adjust their plans accordingly. I hope you have no problem with this policy- after all, there's no reason why we have to limit ourselves to 20 turn deal as a result of the game mechanics (which I'm puzzeled at why they have to be so constrictive ). Cordially, Zeit.

. . .

Well. . .

"Can be cancelled at any time". . .

that is not encouraging.

	03-07-2003 21:57									#205
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

UnOrthO, tell him very cordially and respectfully to **** OFF...

ok, don't tell him that, just say that on our side of the world luxury deals have a definite time lapse, be it 20 turns or whatever, and that they are respected during that time.

	03-07-2003 22:10									#206
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen UnOrthO, tell him very cordially and respectfully to **** OFF...

quote: zeit, GoW understands your position reguarding the trading of luxuries, and appreciates that you have shared the formal policy with us. However, 'can be canceled at any time' and 'must give 2 turns warning, likely with a technical statement of war' baffle us beyond belief. Not only is the original 20 turns not neccessarily honored under such a system, but 'oh, in two turns we will be invading, be prepared to not have furs at that time' also defies the most basic concepts of tactical logic. As long as it makes YOUR team feel like they are being honorable and respecting the deal, though, I suppose that is all that matters. As far as GoW is concerned, a deal is a deal, and deals include limits. It need not neccessarily be 20 turns, could be 30, 40, 50, etc, but those deals will be honored for the duration agreed to, period, no loopholes, work arounds, or false senses of 'right' or 'honorable' such as the proposed 2 turn grace period. Since length was not discussed, we have considered this a 20 turn deal to be renegotiated at the end. Such renegotiation can be as simple as "another (insert #) turns fine with you?" "Yep." "ok". As such, we are honor bound to respect the deal for the next 20 turns. We will, however, understand that your team feels it is being honorable should we receive a 2 turn warning that it will end 10 turns into the deal.

errr something like that? probably not quite as harsh...

Man I really wish I could say what I truly feel at times.

	05-07-2003 17:20									#207
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Session Start: Sat Jul 05 03:58:11 2003 Session Ident: #GoW_COFA * Logging #GoW_COFA to 'logs\#GoW_COFA.GRNet.log' [zeit] hi UnO! [MasterZen] yey * MasterZen sets mode: +ps * MasterZen sets mode: +o hot_enamel_afk * MasterZen sets mode: +o UnOrthOdOx [MasterZen] so, shall we begin? [zeit] I'll give a call to shiber, hold on [MasterZen] ok [MasterZen] have you isreali guys ever met in RL? [zeit] not yet... [zeit] he'll be here shortly [MasterZen] you going to wait until I visit then? hehehe [zeit] maybe [MasterZen] maybe we can bring panag along too [zeit] yeah, sure, have a nice day [UnOrthOdOx] I see NYE bumping around too... * hot_enamel_afk is now known as hot_enamel [zeit] that's good [MasterZen] nye is here? [UnOrthOdOx] Ill PM him, see if he's REALLY online or just forgot to turn the computer off before going to bed. [MasterZen] nye never sleeps * Shiber has joined #GoW_CoFa [Shiber] hola again [zeit] hi shiber * zeit sets mode: +o UnOrthOdOx * zeit sets mode: +o UnOrthOdOx * zeit sets mode: +o Shiber [Shiber] Believe it or not, but cofa means female monkey in Hebrew [Shiber] I'll be back in a jiffy... [zeit] lol [MasterZen] hmmmm [MasterZen] I wonder what Gow means.... [Shiber] It means 'the river that runs fast through the valley' [MasterZen] "lesbian orangutan" [MasterZen] ah * notyoueither has joined #GoW_COFA [MasterZen] he's alive! * MasterZen sets mode: +o notyoueither [notyoueither] you know, this is an ungodly hour [MasterZen] tell me about it :P [zeit] good to see you here! [MasterZen] I think UnO is caught in the wrong time zone... [notyoueither] just going to hit the sack. got a pm from UnO. Thought I'd say hi. [UnOrthOdOx] Wrong timezone? [MasterZen] hehe [UnOrthOdOx] Im on mountain time. its 4AM [notyoueither] oh yeah, wouldn't you prefer to live in Europe? [notyoueither] i am too, wth are you doing organizing chats for this time of night? [UnOrthOdOx] Grew up on a farm, 4AM each morning to take care of chores. [zeit] hey hey, 0300GMT isn't too good for us- and weren't complaining last time [notyoueither] [UnOrthOdOx] don't even need an alarm. [notyoueither] you are sick [zeit] why don't we start, cowyboy? [UnOrthOdOx] got another tomorrow. [MasterZen] SPDG turnchat? [UnOrthOdOx] yep. [UnOrthOdOx] works great for MrWIA... [MasterZen] that will probably be the least attended turnchat in SPDG history... hehehe [UnOrthOdOx] No. I scheduled one for 2AM once. [MasterZen] well, that is actually much better [MasterZen] I'm always awake at that hour :P [UnOrthOdOx] It got pretty good attendance, actually. [MasterZen] oh well, let's start [UnOrthOdOx] Yes. [zeit] I'll set a PW, just in case * zeit sets mode: +k pitabread [MasterZen] what are we going to do tonight brain? [hot_enamel] Hi all ... beautiful 8.10pm here !!! [zeit] we have an improvised agenda [MasterZen] well, I'll let UnO and you guys handle this [UnOrthOdOx] wait a sec MZ. I need you on one item. [MasterZen] oh don't worry, I'm here, ain't going away [UnOrthOdOx] looking for my agenda, one sec. [MasterZen] my eyelids don't weigh like bricks yet... [notyoueither] mine do [zeit] I think we'll start with Lux-lux deals, there's something we should straighten up [MasterZen] go ahead [UnOrthOdOx] OK. [zeit] to be exact, cancelation policy [zeit] we don't see those as implicit NAPs [zeit] as these can be negotiated seperately [MasterZen] ? [zeit] therefor, they can be cancelled at any time [zeit] with a one turn notice [zeit] to avoid unhappiness issues [UnOrthOdOx] I haven't responded with the wording you asked for yet, MZ, FYI [hot_enamel] Why would anyone want to cancel it ? [zeit] its just that lux-lux deals (or lux-resource deals) [zeit] for any reason whatsoever- closing another deal e.g [zeit] with limited luxuries... [Shiber] hot_enamel, if one gets a promise for a better deal from another civ [MasterZen] you know that's not really how everyone's been doing deals so far... [Shiber] Or if one gets paid to cancel the deal [zeit] yeah, but does a lux deal necessarily mean 20 turns NAP? [Shiber] MasterZen, according to our conception, lux-lux deals are basically turn-by-turn exchanges. [hot_enamel] Hmmm .. not very honorable [MasterZen] not if in the contract it says 20 turns [UnOrthOdOx] ok. I guess I can just respond here instead of through PM, ok? [zeit] sure [Shiber] MasterZen, that's why we're not signing a 20 turns contract. [MasterZen] then what are you signing? [zeit] UnO, of course [Shiber] We find that the game mechanics are limiting and quite inappropriate. [MasterZen] btw, have you traded luxes before? [zeit] no [UnOrthOdOx] MZ and HE seem a tad grumpy... [Shiber] They don't let you set the number of turns that the deal can go on. [MasterZen] 20 has always worked for us [UnOrthOdOx] GoW appreciates that you have given us your official policy on the trading of luxuries. [UnOrthOdOx] However. [hot_enamel] after this 20 turns .. we can do it the GS way [Shiber] Anyway MasterZen, if a deal was, say, 20 turns of Lux for a tech, then we'd have to honor it for 20 turns because it is not a turn-by-turn exchange. [Shiber] But in the case of lux-for-lux, when a deal is cancelled, both parties lose equal benefits. [UnOrthOdOx] We feel that deals are deals, and deals have limits. Since no length was discussed, we were considering this the Civ III standard of 20 turns, to be renegotiated at the end. [UnOrthOdOx] Nothing is to say that renegotiation needs be difficult, either. [Shiber] UnOrthOdOx, if that is the case then we'll have to cancel the deal with a technical state of war the next turn, because we're not proceeding with something that we haven't signed on. [hot_enamel] As per every other Lux deal we have ! [MasterZen] and everyone else has done too [Shiber] UnOrthOdOx, I have spoken to one member of your team (I think it was MZ) some time ago, [UnOrthOdOx] can I finish, Shiber, MZ, HE? [MasterZen] I don't think you're going to get many lux deals with that policy, the uncertainty is too high [notyoueither] we acknowledge your position. [MasterZen] go ahead [hot_enamel] Go for it Uno [hot_enamel] Grumpy #1 & Grumpy #2 will remain quiet [UnOrthOdOx] As far as GoW is concerned, We will not break it for 20 turns, and will seek renegotiation at turn 20. We understand, though, that GS may seek to cancel it earlier through a declaration of war. [UnOrthOdOx] We may not be happy about that if/when it happens, but we promise not to publicly cry foul. [zeit] because of the Lux-lux nature of deal (not to cry foul)? [UnOrthOdOx] claim you violated.

	05-07-2003 22:16									#208
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Continuing after poly crapped out earlier...

quote: [Shiber] I had a chat with MZ the other day. He asked me whether lux-for-lux deals are considered as informal NAPs by GS, and I said that I'm not entirely sure and we should discuss this. Then you sign a lux-for-lux deal with us and assume that it's an informal NAP. [UnOrthOdOx] We assumed nothing. [Shiber] Of course, if your stand is that you will not consider it a violation if we cancelled the deal prior to its end (by your standards) with a 1 turn notice, then it's ok. [UnOrthOdOx] I thought that it might. [Shiber] Although I would most like the situation if this was a deal with equal conditions. [Shiber] Well, IMHO you should have asked, since we have never conducted lux deals with GoW. [MasterZen] for the record, I've treated a NAP as an entirely different thing [notyoueither] Shiber, UnO has already acknowledged our point. [UnOrthOdOx] We asked, were told it was not, this cancelation thing is new since it was signed. We figured it was for 20 turns. [zeit] okay, so you don't see the deal as an implicit NAP, just that it is for 20 turns [UnOrthOdOx] yes. [hot_enamel] Why should we think GS would treat a lux deal differentl to any other teamm [zeit] and a 1-turn notice prior to cancelation is okay, [zeit] and no side will cry foul shoudl this happen [zeit] right? [hot_enamel] When GS declares war on GoW... we could not care less about a broken Lux deal * Shiber is now known as Shiber|BRB [UnOrthOdOx] yes. [zeit] very well then, I think its settled then [notyoueither] he, why ever would we DoW GoW? [UnOrthOdOx] I think HE needs a few beers. [UnOrthOdOx] and MZ few hours of sleep. [MasterZen] something like that :P [hot_enamel] Off to go get the burbon ... brb [notyoueither] me too! [notyoueither] xpost [MasterZen] screw that, I'm getting the rum, anybody want some? [zeit] perhaps a fleet of GoW galleys would pop near our coast next turn, who knows, [MasterZen] um... yeah [MasterZen] my question is why would you guys want to break a lux deal for 20 turns... [zeit] we certainly wouldn't [MasterZen] or perhaps I'm not getting this right, will this be an "eternal" lux deal until one side chooses to break it? [zeit] our only concern was it might be seen as a NAP [notyoueither] mz, the difficulty comes in when other civs may see a lux deal as a 20 turn nap. [zeit] that's right MZ [MasterZen] I doubt they'd see it that way [zeit] in fact, we have seen it as indefinite [notyoueither] so do i, but concerns have been raised [zeit] cancelabe at a 1-turn notice [zeit] without any implications [MasterZen] this is wierd... I honestly don't know what to think of it [UnOrthOdOx] mmm coffee. [zeit] so the differences don't seem so big as we've thought [MasterZen] mmm I need some [notyoueither] hmm... bed [MasterZen] mmm rum [zeit] you just see it as seperate 20-turn deals, right? [hot_enamel] mmmm .....burbon [MasterZen] yep, but look at it this way: [zeit] oh, man, I'm chatting with a bunch of sleep-deprived people [UnOrthOdOx] Or we have no problem agreeing to 30, 40 or whatever if specifically stated. [notyoueither] you set the time, buddy. [MasterZen] a 20 turn lux deal does not mean a nap. Should for any reason god-forbid GoW-GS would be at war, then the whole thing is off. Period. No one will go crying that the other broke a lux deal [zeit] hmmm, nap [zeit] right, agreed [MasterZen] now, a NAP is an entirely different thing... [hot_enamel] Hoo Ray [notyoueither] anyways, zeit is awake, so i will say g'night [MasterZen] pass me some bourbon H_E... [zeit] of course, this is also on the agenda [MasterZen] ok, gnight [hot_enamel] But .. GS want to cancel it in 1 turn, if they get a better offer .. * notyoueither has left #GoW_COFA [UnOrthOdOx] Or paid to stop. [MasterZen] now, please, what better offer can you get, it's a straight 1-1 deal? [hot_enamel] Thats what shits me ! [zeit] I think we're fine with the lux thing [UnOrthOdOx] HE, MZ, they are in the end mercenaries too. [MasterZen] aren't we all? [hot_enamel] [zeit] I didn't say we want to, just that for whatever reason we could cancel without implications [MasterZen] but what I'm getting at is that no-one really cares about lux deals once a war breaks out * Shiber|BRB is now known as Shiber [zeit] not whatever, okay, but that it doesn't count as NAP, on which you agree [MasterZen] so, if you are not planning to go to war with us, then what's the problem? 20 turns simple as that. [zeit] so I think that's settled [MasterZen] no, it's not a NAP [zeit] 20 turns is okay [MasterZen] then we settle on 20 turns? [hot_enamel] Hoo Ray [zeit] renegotiable, of course [MasterZen] of course [MasterZen] no hard feelings if you choose not to [zeit] than that's fine [zeit] then [MasterZen] seriously, eh! if you get a better offer good, just respect teh 20 turns [UnOrthOdOx] zeit, see what I deal with? [zeit] very well, NEXT! [hot_enamel] Phew .. That burbon did the trick :b [MasterZen] I'm still waiting H_E... :P [zeit] its okay, nothing like a heated debate to get things moving... [UnOrthOdOx] Ok. [MasterZen] so, what's next in the agenda? Peacekeeping in Liberia? [MasterZen] oh wait, that's RL... [zeit] and i figured this would be the easiest part [zeit] hold on, i'll check [MasterZen] Don't worry, I'm always like this :P [UnOrthOdOx] this informal information. [MasterZen] UnO better bring some duct tape next time [zeit] yes, it seems you were worried about some mole perhaps [zeit] well fear none [UnOrthOdOx] MZ, you know more about the whole thing...can you play nice? [zeit] NYE was refering to casual talks, not some leak or anything, [MasterZen] the duct tape would have been for me [MasterZen] i.e. shutting me up [hot_enamel] I brought that up [zeit] i got it [UnOrthOdOx] The way it was presented, we thought you guys were wanting to share said information but the chat diverged from that course. Is that the case? [zeit] I don't think so [zeit] we're already sharing, don't we? [hot_enamel] I was worried we had a non-active member ratting us out .. Thats just not in the spirit of the game [UnOrthOdOx] we have plenty of non-actives. [MasterZen] like 4/5 of the team :P [hot_enamel] 6/7 [zeit] nothing to worry about, there's no such thing, and we would have never thought of using one anyway [zeit] it is not in the spirit of the game, as you said [MasterZen] it's not you trying to... it's him doing it voluntarily which scares us [UnOrthOdOx] Since we agree that is not in the spirit, would you tell us? [zeit] don't worry about it, we havn't run into one [UnOrthOdOx] I know there are teams that would welcome such a thing. [MasterZen] but has he run into you? [zeit] MZ- no [hot_enamel] Move on .. next [UnOrthOdOx] Research. [zeit] yes, a worthy subject [zeit] go on [UnOrthOdOx] What are you guys researching, can we arrange a trade, etc, so on, [zeit] currently, we're not researching, but we plan to research Economy [zeit] than banking [MasterZen] economy? that's a little far away... [UnOrthOdOx] MZ...what did we decide as well. [UnOrthOdOx] ****, we're not researching either....we all letting Lego plug away at it? [zeit] at what? [UnOrthOdOx] I mean, with our two teams not researching, Lego will be selling. [UnOrthOdOx] Likely [UnOrthOdOx] not my personal top pick of where to spend money. [zeit] so don't we split? [hot_enamel] It's going to be tough invading lego ... It's going to need a multi team effort [hot_enamel] [zeit] research costs, or something [zeit] of course [hot_enamel] Oh .. you were talking research ... my bad [MasterZen] hahahaha... that bourbon's getting to ya [UnOrthOdOx] Make sure they only sell ONCE...yes, that can be arranged with us. [UnOrthOdOx] Hopefully the others as well. [zeit] perhaps we could do the research, and GoW will participate in the costs [UnOrthOdOx] I believe we will start up again once outstanding contracts are fulfilled. [zeit] start research, right? [MasterZen] we are still undecided over Space Flight or Synthitic Fibers... [UnOrthOdOx] yes. We already have agreements for anything we could currently research. [zeit] okay, so it maybe we can work something out for the future [UnOrthOdOx] sure. Any idea which path you will go? [UnOrthOdOx] we could do the opposite. * Shiber is now known as Shiber|Lunch [Shiber|Lunch] [zeit] banking [zeit] and then economy [hot_enamel] GS going for democracy ? [hot_enamel] Or Lego ? [zeit] we don't know, [UnOrthOdOx] Why not? with the damn removal of WW [UnOrthOdOx] basically [zeit] for the government, sure [MasterZen] that would be good... we suspect Lego is going for Music Theory and RP for Printing Press [zeit] but perhaps we'll research econ. head on [hot_enamel] GoW/RP/ND can stick with the bottom tech tree [zeit] I think we would appreciate trading for democracy [MasterZen] we can go invention [zeit] also true... [zeit] do you have solid plans yet- as i said, we're pretty much set on banking and economics [hot_enamel] Invention sounds like the most likely option [zeit] won't you be duplicating anyone? [MasterZen] not that we know of [UnOrthOdOx] WOULD have been Vox...but that is not a problem anymore. [UnOrthOdOx] thank you. [zeit] yeah, but beware of the power of 40 turns research, in the hands of the biggest civ around [zeit] but, perhaps they could be useful for us as well [UnOrthOdOx] ok, shall we proceed? [zeit] very well [UnOrthOdOx] the 'difficult' part? [UnOrthOdOx] NAP. [zeit] sure... [UnOrthOdOx] NYE was going to re-word it. [UnOrthOdOx] where are we. [zeit] it is still being discussed [zeit] i can only say it is still a suggestion, but i'll say this: [zeit] we are trying to find a formula that would allow us both to intervene should this be necessary, [zeit] i'm looking for appropriate words, hold on please [zeit] but that would increase each team's security [hot_enamel] Zeit ... you should just tell us what would GS's responsebe if there was war on Bob [zeit] something like: we won't join an alliance against you, nor start a war of agression against you [UnOrthOdOx] There are those that are getting the feeling with the lux deal cancellation clause, the failure of the NAP, the specific wording NYE used...that you are looking for ways around things to attack us. [UnOrthOdOx] Loopholes if you will. [zeit] not the case [hot_enamel] Exactly Uno .. [zeit] i thought you would, and that's why i'm choosing my words carefuly [UnOrthOdOx] "war of aggression" is all in the POV... [UnOrthOdOx] for instance. [zeit] we just fear a 2 v 1 war on Bob that would create a superpower on Bob [hot_enamel] A 2 nation bob is NOT a superpower [hot_enamel] Lego & GS are the superpowers [zeit] it might turn into 1 nation soon thereafter [hot_enamel] Its not a 1 nation yet [zeit] RP also has the potential [MasterZen] actually it might turn into 2 battered ones [hot_enamel] Everything GS has said, has indicated they want to get involved if a war breaks out in Bob [zeit] we have no plans whatsoever to attack GoW [zeit] we keep this option to ourselves, HE, right [zeit] i think it is legitimate [zeit] after all, we're at least half bobians now [hot_enamel] [zeit] and once astronomy comes along- even more [zeit] we're not looking for an opening to attack GoW, not at all [hot_enamel] We are the weakest nation .. and therefore your easiest target [hot_enamel] And easy to invade [MasterZen] let's cut the crap: [zeit] but the weakest nation is definitely not a target, if you want to maintian stability, right? [MasterZen] what would you do if we and RP allied against ND? [MasterZen] what would you do if we and ND allied against RP? [hot_enamel] But easier if you want a foothold on Bob [MasterZen] what would you do if ND and RP allied against us? [zeit] I honestly (really) don't know what we might do in the two upper options [zeit] but we'll probably intervene on your behalf on the third [zeit] but please, don't take my word for it [MasterZen] of course not, but what would be the compelling evidence in either of the top two cases to intervene? [MasterZen] would RP be too powerful in case #1? would ND in case #2? you know geography in both cases works against us.. [hot_enamel] A 2 nation bob still means no superpowers [zeit] of course, that's why you are not a likely target at all, [MasterZen] this is what I have been proposing to nye in the other chats I've had with them: [MasterZen] please listen: [hot_enamel] I need more ice anyway [MasterZen] we all know who's going to win ceteris paribus (if everything remains the same): Lego [MasterZen] we all know that after steam power Lego will be invincible, especially since they are industrial and will probably switch to democracy to build those RRs quick [MasterZen] once that happens, NO ONE will be able to take them on, not even a combination of us [zeit] very true [MasterZen] so, this game will be won from here to Steam Power [MasterZen] no one civ can take on Lego alone [zeit] at least "not won" for lego... [UnOrthOdOx] The I doubt 2 could... [MasterZen] yep [zeit] with careful planning, I think 2 could. [MasterZen] now, if we were to hatch a long term plan against Lego [MasterZen] i.e. to attack them before RR... that would work [MasterZen] well, perhaps, but it's safer than after RR [zeit] mutual interest will keep us both from fighting against eachother [MasterZen] thus, like it or not, our destinies are intertwined... [zeit] [MasterZen] now, being no-bs here, each of us wants to win.. [zeit] mostly to have fun, but that as well [MasterZen] what happens after Lego is a whole new story here, and I'm not going to dwell on it [zeit] I don't think we were thinking of anhilating them [MasterZen] but in the meantime, this is the only change WE (GoW or GS) get to win [MasterZen] no, just making them not able to win [zeit] just cripple [MasterZen] however, the issue here is Bob [zeit] of course, that's the powderkeg [zeit] you're planning on dominating Bob? [MasterZen] that will be quite difficult [MasterZen] at least speaking in today's terms [zeit] or just keep it stable until we muster a force against lego [MasterZen] but... [MasterZen] that is not to say the others don't have intentions either [MasterZen] so, we as GoW have two options: [MasterZen] we don't do anything, hope we all be nice bla bla bla ally with all Bobians and GS against Lego [hot_enamel] A 3 nation Bob will not commit to Lego... each of us would be afraid the other will take the opportunity to attack [MasterZen] exactly [MasterZen] and if for some miraculous reason we do, we'll kick our ass afterwards anyway (and in effect give the game to you guys ) [zeit] oon the phone [MasterZen] so, SOMETHING will happen [MasterZen] I don't think we're the only ones who realize this [MasterZen] if we do, then the ND and RP are really damn stupid [MasterZen] but I doubt it [MasterZen] now, to tell you the truth, we are not a reactive team [zeit] more proactive- yes, despite being "mercenary" [MasterZen] we WILL try and do something if we see the opportunity to do so. We also HOPE that we don't have to though [UnOrthOdOx] CAN be bought and WILL be bought are entirely different... [MasterZen] so true... [zeit] we are worried about RP in bob, but mostly Lego [MasterZen] so, as I've told nye, options 1 and 2 are, and have always been on the table (alliances with the other Bobians against another Bobian) [zeit] true, but what if RP makes you do the fighting, and than walks over you and ND? [UnOrthOdOx] We can be bought, but will not be pawns. That is a good assessment. [MasterZen] we don't know who, we don't know when, and we don't know if, but it's a possibility that exists. We will not be caught with our pants down if ND and RP take a hit at us [MasterZen] now this is where GS comes in [MasterZen] everything we do, despite how well we are starting to get along, is in function of a probable GS response [MasterZen] should we ally with ND against RP? Does GS hate RP enough that they'll just watch on the sidelines while we take them on? [MasterZen] should we ally with RP against ND? Will GS intervene against any one of us in this case? [MasterZen] see? those are the questions we ask ourselves every day... [zeit] I don't know, intervening doesn't mean we'll be helping RP... [zeit] so are we, it worries us too- being a target of 3 bobians could become a reality [MasterZen] to put it bluntly, should options 1 or 2 happen, which would you prefer? [MasterZen] us allying with ND or RP? [MasterZen] obviously option 3 is our worst nightmare [zeit] I believe that with ND, for RP is the largest, but i'm a mere diplomat... * Shiber|Lunch has quit IRC (Quit: Must leave, sorry) [zeit] personally, I don't see any option in which we intervene against you [zeit] but i have to back the team's policy, which is still against explicit NAPs... [MasterZen] I would hope your team shares that PoV [MasterZen] btw, NAPs don't have to be public... [UnOrthOdOx] unless that is some GS code of honor [zeit] sure, but they have a way to become, without any malicious intention on either side [MasterZen] frankly I don't find it dishonorable to have deals not made public [zeit] neither do we [UnOrthOdOx] me either, just saying... [zeit] Like i said, we understand your fears, and share some of them, especially lego's becoming a floating fortress [zeit] and like i said, i believe common interests will keep us from fighting eachother [zeit] we can't commit to a full NAP yet, but we're working on a formula that might please us both [MasterZen] honestly I find it much easier to imagine a 2-bobian alliance with you against Lego [UnOrthOdOx] Can you tell us? and have you discussed this with other bobians? [zeit] discussed what exactly? alliance against lego? [UnOrthOdOx] yes. [zeit] hell no, and we'll keep it that way for now [zeit] too premature to have it talked about [zeit] but since you brought it up... [zeit] have you? [UnOrthOdOx] Not yet, wondering the best way to do it. [UnOrthOdOx] and best timing. [MasterZen] we fear this might lead to plans of backstabbing by the others... [UnOrthOdOx] especially the king... [MasterZen] we'd much rather ally with you first, that would dissaude any other Bobian from getting ideas [zeit] understandable- this has to be coordinated [UnOrthOdOx] ND is hard to predict as well. [zeit] or perhaps make them develop ideas of attacking us both? [zeit] before we swallow them [MasterZen] if there's only 1 bobian remaining there's no chance of that [UnOrthOdOx] there is no way there can be 1 bobian before the RR, making Lego defacto victors... [zeit] this could be kept in secret so that your foe will have little time to organize for an attack [MasterZen] should war break out on Bob, the 2 victors would have sizeable armies [MasterZen] like you did against Vox [zeit] but what if there will be no war? [MasterZen] assuming you don't disband your army and we don't either, that's A LOT of firepower [zeit] the idea of a combined attack, against lego, as well as some protection pact is interesting, GS will have to further discuss that [MasterZen] I really hope you do [zeit] before i could tell you anything concrete [zeit] we surely will, we certainly see lego as favorite [MasterZen] I just want to say one final thing (on my behalf because I've been hogging this part way too long now)

	05-07-2003 22:17									#209
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quote: [MasterZen] what we've said is the whole no-bullshit truth [MasterZen] we are in a very interesting position and we'd like to take advantage from it before others do [zeit] I appreciate that [MasterZen] we also want to win the game just like you [MasterZen] however, we honestly feel that at least until the Lego issue is solved, our destinies are best shared [zeit] good to hear that, i'm sure this will affect our future decisions [zeit] but sadly (really), i can't commit to anything now, but that may change [MasterZen] don't worry we understand [zeit] well then, with this optimistic spirit, i'll have to say goodbye- duty calls (exam studies) [MasterZen] all we ask is that you bring this back to your team [zeit] of course [MasterZen] and that hopefully we can get answers soon [zeit] i hope so [MasterZen] on our behalf we can assure you that whatever happens on bob which involves us, we'll let you know [zeit] i've had a wonderful time, thanks everyone for coming [zeit] thanks [UnOrthOdOx] Anything else you had, zeit? [hot_enamel] Cya [zeit] not really... [zeit] i really have to go, though [MasterZen] that's it, I'm having breakfast know... [MasterZen] cya zeit [zeit] bon apetit [UnOrthOdOx] great. I gotta thank you for being no BS with us [hot_enamel] BUOURBONNn!!!!!!!!!!! * zeit has quit IRC (Quit: ) [MasterZen] and for tolerating our BS... [hot_enamel] HA [MasterZen] HA! [MasterZen] perfectly timed! [hot_enamel] Thats a funny end [MasterZen] hilarious! [MasterZen] ok, to celebrate having a chat at this hour.. [hot_enamel] Good Work MZ / Uno [hot_enamel] Back to the stripper club ? [MasterZen] and having H_E present, which unfortunately because the world is round is a difficult thing... [MasterZen] damn my lazy whiny friends! ME WANT STRIPPERS! [hot_enamel] [UnOrthOdOx] Too bad you're so far south...I'ld take you to one right now. [MasterZen] at 5:40 am your time? [hot_enamel] OK Gentlemen ... I am signing off now .. anything we need to say b4 I go [MasterZen] umm... [MasterZen] CHEERS! [hot_enamel] Luv you guys [hot_enamel] Cya [UnOrthOdOx] yep. Ill go work up the log now. Session Close: Sat Jul 05 05:42:25 2003

	05-07-2003 23:29									#210
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

ok then

whats with this team policy of no explicit NAPs?? Its crazy!!

Anyways... I'm feeling pretty confident about our future; here's what I think would be ideal:

-We take RP out totally
-GS, ND, and us (along with help from Vox if they're still around on little legoland) take out or downsize legoland.
-ND and us take GS out.
-Either we go to war with ND for the win or we declare ourselves joint winners...