10-04-2003 07:42									#91
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hot_Enamel:

quote: Deal proposal to Gathering Storm: We give: -200 gold. The Gathering Storm will determine the payment type, providing not more than 100 gold goes into the down payment. -Wines after a trade route is in place -2 gpt while receiving Iron They give: -Feudalism in 2 turns -Sea RoP to allow our galley to pass through. (I told them we were looking for Iron islands and also would like to scout a trade route). -Iron if we need it.

This has already been sent to GS, and they are seeing if they like it right now. Shiber will probably get back to us tommorrow.

	10-04-2003 08:03									#92
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, evidence of the war is the avatar showing how Grog dies heroically in the mountain...

unless of course it's a photoshop trick

But I agree H_E that 1) is very important to save some face if this ends up sour.

	10-04-2003 08:15									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Hot_Enamel: This has already been sent to GS, and they are seeing if they like it right now. Shiber will probably get back to us tommorrow.

Good work Panzer..

	10-04-2003 23:49									#94
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Shiber says that we need to sent 100 gold and 5 gpt accepted for them to be able to speed their research. He also says the deal would include a 10 turn no-trade clause. I got this from a chat, so there is no message to post here.

	11-04-2003 00:23									#95
	Inflate your Upload Space

I had a chat with Shiber. I couldn't do a log though on Java. The main point was the trade, see post above. Shiber also really wanted to know how many immortals we had killed already. I told them we have not killed any immortals as of yet. I did this to be safe, as it is the truth (anyways, we've only been at war 1 turn).

	11-04-2003 00:46									#96
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If we trade GS Wine we should get Fur or Incense in return as this will allow us larger cities. Most of which are on rivers meaning we don't have to build aqueducts.

	11-04-2003 05:48									#97
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Log of Impromtu Chat with GS today:

quote: Session Start: Fri Apr 11 00:21:19 2003 Session Ident: #gow [00:21] * Now talking in #gow [00:21] alva: hi all [00:21] Aeson: It takes a/d values into consideration [00:21] GhengisFarb: Hi [00:21] Aeson: if it checks mobility, it is little to nothing of the rating [00:22] Aeson: Have you seen the map of Vox's territory? [00:22] Aeson: (not asking for it btw, they gave it to us before the war started) [00:22] GhengisFarb: Do want to trade us maps so we can see it? [00:22] GhengisFarb: [00:23] Aeson: It wasn't the most strategic of decisions. They are now fighting in the dark while we can see. [00:23] Shiber: We should discuss this in the forum. I'd be in favor though. [00:23] Aeson: We coudl possibly discuss a trade of that information. [00:23] Aeson: I would be in favor of trading screenshots at least. [00:23] Aeson: In game maps may be harder to swing. [00:24] GhengisFarb: We have ND/GoW/RP maps, the island between Legolas and us and a large chunk of Lego's coast. [00:24] Panzer32: in game maps = trading... but if you don't want to then whatever... [00:24] Panzer32: yeah, we have a large map [00:24] GhengisFarb: It would also open sea trade routes for your team to ND, GoW and Roleplay. [00:24] Shiber: Well, there's a problem with trading in-game maps. [00:25] Shiber: If we trade you our in-game map, we'd have to ask you not to distribute it for at least 10 turns, because of the situation with Vox., [00:25] GhengisFarb: That would be reasonable. [00:25] Shiber: That would mean that you won't be able to sell your world map to anyone at all, under these conditions [00:25] GhengisFarb: That just makes it more valuable in ten turns. [00:25] alva: I doubt we will get that approved though (in-game maps) [00:26] Shiber: I agree with alva. We are a paranoid bunch. [00:26] alva: we need to be for now [00:26] Shiber: But screenshots of Vox's territory would be fine, at least by me. [00:27] GhengisFarb: We have several galleys hugging coast (so they don't sink) looking for islands. [00:27] alva: hmm, yes, that could be done, maybe [00:27] Shiber: You wanted a sea RoP, right? [00:27] Panzer32: yeah [00:27] GhengisFarb: Yes [00:28] alva: whats rop again? [00:28] Shiber: I believe that you offered wines in exchange [00:28] Shiber: Rights of Passage [00:28] alva: [00:28] Aeson: I would be more inclined to support a map trade than a sea ROP. [00:28] GhengisFarb: We have one with Lego, they don't want to trade us their map but this allows us to go along the coast and look for islands. [00:28] Shiber: Technically, if you did your best possible to stay out of our cultural borders, I would be fine with it, and so would most of my teammates, I think; however, the payment doesn't seem suitable. [00:29] GhengisFarb: Absolutely no landing on home continents. [00:29] Aeson: Perhaps a trade of a screenshot of our coasts with all the land blacked out? [00:29] Shiber: Our economists tell me that wines are not of any worth to us, unfortunately. [00:29] Aeson: We have nothing of interest offshore I'm afraid. If we did it would be settled within a few turns. [00:29] GhengisFarb: That could be doctored, we are very leary of non game maps as several teams have grossly misrepresented their land positions. [00:29] Aeson: By offshore I mean that a galley could safely cross. We don't know anything beyond that [00:30] Aeson: That's fair. The Sea ROP and in game maps would be hard from our standpoint at this time. [00:31] GhengisFarb: But my mapping the outline of the continents we can tell where large unoccupied areas are and risk suicide galleys into those areas looking for subcontinents. [00:31] Shiber: GhengisFarb, what if we did the exploration around our continent, searching for islands that are reachable by galley, and reported to you if we found anything? [00:31] Shiber: That's just an idea, but it might work [00:32] GhengisFarb: We'd rather do it ourselves so our galleys can shoot off to any distant coastal glimpses they find. [00:32] Aeson: Where is your closest Galley? [00:32] Shiber: Thinking of building the Great Lighthouse? [00:32] GhengisFarb: Between our contient and Vox, fairly close to Grog Mountain. [00:33] GhengisFarb: No the Lighthouse expires . [00:35] Aeson: Would GoW be interested in sending unit reports to GS about Vox movement along the roads nearby? Perhaps as part of a deal to allow your Galley to then move S through our borders (just about the whole coast is claimed). [00:35] Aeson: At this time a Sea ROP with GoW is one sided, as we don't have any Galleys remotely near your shores. This could possibly be a way to make up the difference [00:35] GhengisFarb: If you will allow us to explore the coasts then we could give you troops reports on the Vox columns along the road. [00:37] Aeson: It would require your Galley staying put for at least 5 turns. moving back and forth N and S. [00:37] Panzer32: we would be interested in a trade like that [00:37] Shiber: I apologize, but I must go. RL is calling - emergency, I'm afraid. [00:37] Aeson: Have you already moved the galley this turn? [00:37] GhengisFarb: The first one would continue on with the second one hanging out around Eliopolis. [00:37] GhengisFarb: Until Vox sinks it of course. [00:38] alva: Isn't an island, that is (rather) close to us or vox more or less worthless to you? [00:38] Panzer32: I have to go too [00:38] GhengisFarb: No, not if it has Iron. [00:38] Panzer32: bye Shiber; all [00:38] alva: bi [00:38] * Shiber holds hands with Panzer32 and walks out the door [00:38] Shiber: lol [00:38] Aeson: The area I was thinking of was on the coast NW of Grog mountain, down 3 tiles, and back up next turn. [00:38] alva: [00:39] Aeson: Bye Panzer [00:39] GhengisFarb: Or if its a big enough one worth building a Forbidden Palace on. [00:39] Shiber: Cya everyone, I'll be back tomorrow. [00:39] GhengisFarb: Bye Panxer [00:39] GhengisFarb: Panzer [00:39] * Shiber has quit IRC (Quit: Shiber has no reason) [00:39] * Panzer32 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [00:39] GhengisFarb: Bye Shiber [00:39] Aeson: There is a gap there that you would see any troops moving S along the road. [00:39] GhengisFarb: We see one column right now. [00:40] Aeson: I can't give the final go ahead, but take a screenshot of that column for if/when the deal goes through ok? [00:41] GhengisFarb: Ok, I can tell you that your estimate to their force strenght is way off though. [00:41] Aeson: We know that they have built Immortals/Spears regularly, I only commented on the Warriors they had to upgrade. [00:41] Aeson: Sorry if I was misleading. [00:42] Aeson: The rest of the analysis is based on Vox's cities and terrain, which was why I asked if you had seen it. [00:42] GhengisFarb: Understood. [00:42] GhengisFarb: They have several closely packed cities from what we can observe. [00:43] Aeson: You have seen most everything of note of their terrain I'm thinking. Their land is very narrow. [00:43] GhengisFarb: Yes, it is much smaller that our own land on Bob and we are the runt kingdom on Bob. [00:44] Aeson: So I don't mind telling you that they have 5 cities (including Elipolis) N of the isthmus, and one S [00:44] Aeson: 3 are size 4 [00:44] GhengisFarb: i don't know about sizes other than Eli. [00:44] Aeson: A size 3 (Eli) [00:44] Aeson: and 2 more size 1 (they have been whipping) [00:45] GhengisFarb: I would say that they have commited themselves to taking GS out or else. [00:45] Aeson: We can guarantee it is 'or else' [00:46] alva: They did surpeise us, it was well set-up [00:46] alva: *surprise [00:46] Aeson: Yes, and almost at the worst possible time for us. [00:47] GhengisFarb: So no official acceptance on the Feudalism deal? [00:47] Aeson: But we can react very quickly. [00:47] alva: [00:47] alva: ah well, that's whats makes this game fun [00:47] Aeson: I'm afraid not. We need cash right now just to make sure we don't lose cities before we can build any Pikes [00:48] GhengisFarb: So there's no point in our sending the 100 gold now. [00:48] Aeson: No, it doesn't look like it [00:49] Aeson: We can finish our upgrades with this next turn's commerce, and finish rushing a Barracks we need hopefully. [00:50] Aeson: the 100 gold would only cover our losses at this point, we run a rather large deficit at 100% (republic does that) [00:50] GhengisFarb: This is really forcing us to adjust our strategy as we have to research it ourselves now. [00:50] alva: GF, why do you need Feud so fast? Vox is off BoB right, so you aren't in any imediate danger, are you? [00:51] Aeson: We can still have it in 4-5 turns, and definitely will meet our initial timeframe [00:51] Aeson: Our GA will start any turn now as well, that may shave off a turn or even two. [00:52] GhengisFarb: We aren't researching anything as we wanted to start on Chivalry when we got Feudalism and ditched 5 turns of Feudalism research because we thougth we could buy it from you. [00:53] alva: still can [00:53] Aeson: You still can buy it from us of course. Shiber's feelers about going full bore were to see if we could find a deal where we could cover our gold needs and get both of us Feudalism faster. While your offer is generous, it doesn't come nearly to that point now that Vox has declared war on us. [00:54] Aeson: Might we also strike some deal as to Chivalry? [00:54] Aeson: We will be in our GA, and likely can research it about twice as fast as any other team. [00:54] Aeson: (assuming Vox doesn't kill us ) [00:54] alva: Would you be interested in us NOT selling chivalry to ND [00:55] * alva kicks Aeson [00:55] Aeson: Hey... save it for Vox! [00:55] alva: lol [00:55] GhengisFarb: We now are looking at getting Feudalism not too far from when we would have researched it our selves. If you lose some cities to Vox that may put Feudalism even farther out that 3 turns. We either take a chance that you will finish it which is not a definite or research it ourselves. [00:56] alva: we won't loose 3 cities [00:56] Aeson: If we emptied our cities of units, Vox couldn't hurt our research capacity enough to delay our timing of Feudalism. [00:56] Aeson: Immortals just aren't that fast. [00:57] Aeson: They have too far to travel. [00:57] Aeson: And Vox has no Horses. [00:57] GhengisFarb: You hope you want, but Vox has the advantage of haveing preplaced their units before the conflict. There are a bunch that should enter your borders next turn. [00:57] Aeson: All vox can threaten in the next 6 turns is a size 4 city and a size 1 city, both relatively corrupt. [00:58] Aeson: They can't enter our borders next turn except by sea, it's as simple as that. [00:59] Aeson: We have enough warning from Grog to guarantee that they can't even do that this turn on the W coast either. [00:59] GhengisFarb: If you finished Feudalism asap then we coudl start researching Chivalry while you concentrated solely on the war. Then you have both war resources and a speedy Chivalry. [00:59] Aeson: We would need 200 gold up front. We have to upgrade our final few units. [00:59] Aeson: it's the only way we can go full bore. [01:00] GhengisFarb: If we gave you 200 gold up front will you guarantee us Feudalism in 2 turns? [01:01] Aeson: Like I said earlier, I think Shiber's math was off. It takes us 3 turns (I don't have access to the save to make sure) [01:02] GhengisFarb: Guaranteed to receive it in 3 turns and the right for our galleys to travel unmolested for 200 gold THIS turn, we will accept it before we send it. [01:02] Aeson: 200 gold up front would give us 100 gold after the losses, so it might be doable. [01:02] Aeson: It's a big deal, how long can you hold the save for? [01:03] Aeson: Or would be willing that is. [01:03] GhengisFarb: another 2 hours. [01:03] * nbarclay has joined #GoW [01:03] Aeson: Hello Nathan [01:03] alva: I'm sorry (havn't read everything yet), but wasn't 200 gold the price for delivery in 7 turns? [01:03] nbarclay: Hi everyoe [01:03] Aeson: Yes it was. [01:03] GhengisFarb: Yes, but we are paying it up front [01:04] Aeson: But we do gain by having enough gold for our upgrades and to get Pikes ASAP [01:04] nbarclay: We'll lose as much up front researching as we'll get up front from you. [01:04] nbarclay: Our ability to upgrade troops will be slowed down. [01:04] GhengisFarb: you can shift to partial research and upgrade units each turn starting the turn you finish Feudalism. [01:05] Aeson: GF, would you be willing to guarantee that your Galleys would never be within 8 tiles of each other in our waters? (should work with the delay of the second anyways) [01:05] nbarclay: If we try to deliver in three turns, we have to go pretty much full steam. [01:05] GhengisFarb: No two of our galleys within 8 tiles of each other in your water? [01:05] alva: How many galleys btw? [01:05] GhengisFarb: 2 [01:05] nbarclay: As I recall, we needed three turns at our highest viable research rate to finish. [01:06] alva: Why 2? [01:06] GhengisFarb: We were going to send one each way along your continents coast [01:07] alva: they are empty, are they not? [01:07] Aeson: The second galley will be scouting Vox's road for 5 turns. [01:07] Aeson: Sending us screenshots. [01:08] GhengisFarb: They have mobile units in case they locate a big island that they can't completely research from the shore. [01:08] GhengisFarb: but no settlers [01:08] Aeson: So 2 Horses in each? [01:08] Aeson: or just 1? [01:09] GhengisFarb: no, one in each but we will move both to the scout galley in case vox tries to sink the one by Eli. [01:09] Aeson: Ok. And you realize that we will kill those units if they land on GS's continent? [01:10] GhengisFarb: Yes, I don't think two Horsemen would last long in the heart of an opposing empires production base. [01:10] Aeson: I agree, not with our road network [01:11] Aeson: I feel it's only fair to warn you that you won't find any Galley crossings. [01:11] Aeson: Not S of the Vox border at least, can't say for sure up N [01:12] GhengisFarb: At least we will map out the area covered by known continents and be able to guess where other continents might lie. [01:12] GhengisFarb: We've already found one 18 tile island. [01:13] Aeson: We had heard that. Supposedly Lux was heading there before Vox destroyed them [01:13] GhengisFarb: We found it so I doubt they would have beat us to it. [01:14] alva: Wouldn't it make more sence to buy iron from us and use the galley for something else? [01:14] Aeson: It wasn't really GS' concern if Lux made it there or not, just that they left. [01:14] Aeson: You certainly had the jump on them. [01:14] GhengisFarb: But then we are at your mercy for Iron, if you decide to attack us you will just cut us off. [01:15] alva: Finding a small island right next to us, is going to have the same end result, isn't it. [01:16] nbarclay: Iron that can't be reached by pure coast tiles is worthless until Astronomy, so anything in our direction would be a long-term proposition. [01:16] Aeson: If they find such an Island, maybe not... cause it would be invisible [01:16] nbarclay: Any islands, that is. [01:16] alva: Or , you could just be nice to us... [01:16] GhengisFarb: You would never know of our secret Iron Island because you don't trade maps. [01:17] nbarclay: But if your ships can find it, couldn't one of ours? [01:17] Aeson: It's a failing on our part, we enjoy the dark [01:17] alva: not orange? [01:17] GhengisFarb: What ships, how many ships do you have? [01:18] alva: for the moment , as much as we need. [01:18] nbarclay: I'd rather not speak about current force levels. But I was really thinking more toward the future. [01:19] nbarclay: For the moment, any galleys we might have or get soon have higher priorities than exploration. [01:20] nbarclay: And no, we haven't been building up anything that would threaten Bob. [01:22] GhengisFarb: What the? [01:22] Aeson: One will need to be replacing your scout vessel by the time it moves off. [01:22] Aeson: You had mentioned Luxuries to Shiber right? [01:23] Aeson: Something wrong? [01:23] GhengisFarb: I think Panzer did [01:24] Aeson: The ROP would open up a sea route between us. I'm not sure how it works in MP though, do both need the map?

	11-04-2003 05:53									#98
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Log of Impromtu Chat with GS today PART II:

quote: [01:25] GhengisFarb: Did you see a red comment line in the dialogue? [01:25] alva: ? [01:26] Aeson: No I didn't [01:26] Aeson: What did it say? [01:27] GhengisFarb: Togas is chatting with me and I keep seeing comments in this dialogue. [01:27] Aeson: That is very weird [01:28] GhengisFarb: He's pissed because he thinks we are trying to get Feudalsim and he wants a trade embargo against GS [01:30] * Panzer32[GoW] has joined #GoW [01:30] Panzer32[GoW]: hello, Im back [01:30] alva: [01:30] Panzer32[GoW]: so whats up? [01:30] alva: Why the trade embargo? [01:30] Aeson: Welcome back Panzer [01:31] Panzer32[GoW]: trade embargo!? [01:32] Aeson: Currently the negotiations stand at: [01:32] GhengisFarb: He wants you to be taken down a few notches. [01:32] alva: what for? [01:32] Aeson: GoW: 200g, scout Vox's road with galleys for 5 turns with second Galley [01:33] Aeson: GS: Sea ROP for 2 galleys not within 8 tiles of each other, Feudalism in 3 turns [01:33] nbarclay: Just so it's clear, we'll get Feudalism on the third turn after we crank up research. [01:34] Panzer32[GoW]: sounds reasonable. [01:34] nbarclay: And we could deliver it immediately after, assuming the deal is approved. [01:34] GhengisFarb: Agreed [01:35] Aeson: You will be transfering both units onto the first galley, are they stacked or will that take a turn? [01:36] Aeson: The NDA is still in effect as well. 10 turns was agreeable since you get it earlier? [01:36] GhengisFarb: Yes, both units onto the first galley, they aren't stacked [01:37] GhengisFarb: Yes 10 turn NDA [01:37] Aeson: We just want to know when to expect your expedition. [01:37] Aeson: To be clear, that is an NDA for GoW trading it, not for GS [01:37] GhengisFarb: They have already moved this turn [01:37] Aeson: And you are inbetween elipolis and Grog mountain? [01:37] GhengisFarb: Yes, GOW want trade Feudalism to anyone else for 10 turns [01:38] GhengisFarb: We are in the tile nw of Grog Mountain [01:39] Aeson: Ok, you would enter our territory (if it's still ours ) with 1 of the galleys in 2 turns. [01:39] GhengisFarb: I'll take your word on that, I don' t know where your territory begins right now. [01:40] GhengisFarb: brb phone call [01:40] Aeson: 4 tiles S, 1 SW will be the first GS tile you enter. [01:46] Panzer32[GoW]: what does NDA stand for? I always called it NTC (no trade clause) [01:46] nbarclay: Non-disclosure agreement. [01:46] Aeson: Probably an artifact of us developing Alphabet and Writing seperately [01:47] Panzer32[GoW]: so we can't tell the others that we have feudalism? [01:47] Panzer32[GoW]: probably [01:47] alva: and not sell either [01:48] Aeson: They will know that someone has it if they look at the research times. We would prefer if you didn't broadcast it of course [01:48] nbarclay: Especially no sell, trade, give, etc. [01:48] Panzer32[GoW]: well, if we don't tell them, they can't buy it [01:49] Aeson: Is there any interest in coordinating Chivalry research? [01:50] Aeson: If both of us research it we both get hurt, but if one of us feeds the other gold, then we both get it just as fast, and have more upgrade money between us [01:51] GhengisFarb: back [01:52] Panzer32[GoW]: would GS or GoW do the researching? [01:53] GhengisFarb: We are researching Chivalry, it gives us our UU and we want to ensure have the best chance to get it before ND. [01:53] nbarclay: You're sure you can beat ND to it? [01:54] nbarclay: Keep in mind that they're in Republic, if I remember right. [01:54] nbarclay: And I don't think you are yet. [01:54] GhengisFarb: No offense, but this is too critical a tech for us to depend on another team. We hope to be in Republic by then [01:54] Aeson: Either way we do save time and money. If we want more money between us, GoW can do the research, if we want it sooner, GS [01:54] alva: they are (nd-:[/b]rep) [01:55] nbarclay: Just to be clear, my only concern is trying to figure out the best way to get it for both teams. [01:55] alva: Imagine having chivalry a couple of tursn sooner then ND... [01:55] nbarclay: On one hand, having us research it would involve some risk if Vox hurts us too badly. [01:56] nbarclay: On the other, we are already in Republic, and have an excellent research rate when we aren't too busy upgrading and such. [01:56] GhengisFarb: Once we get Feudalism it would make sense for you to concentrate on building and rushing forces to win the war. [01:57] Aeson: And will be in our GA [01:57] Aeson: But that will just mean more upgrades for us [01:57] Aeson: I'm fine either way. [01:57] alva: Perhaps GoW can open a second front on VoX? [01:58] GhengisFarb: I would prefer not to as we would have nothing to gain, I don't think you would want us to keep the cities we took on your continent? [01:58] Aeson: No, Vox's territory will make the perfect FP area for us. [01:58] alva: Take away a few galleys maybe? [01:58] Aeson: And the close times are going to be the next 10 turns, after that Vox hasn't a chance. [01:59] GhengisFarb: And we don't want to weaken our defenses versus ND. [01:59] nbarclay: I can understand your concerns about ND quite well. [02:00] GhengisFarb: I think our galleys are more useful as neutral observers than combatants. As long as we are neutral Vox doesn't have to know we are observing for your team. [02:00] GhengisFarb: Unless we sit there in one spot for awhile, then it would be pretty obvious. [02:01] Aeson: Feudalism and Chivalry are both cost 32. If we give the 200 g back halfway through your Chivalry research will that be an acceptable trade? We would have the NDA of course, this time that GoW can trade and GS can't. [02:01] alva: Didn't GoW offically go to war on the publi forum thread? [02:02] Aeson: I agree, as long as we know how many units vox is sending we can position our forces best. [02:03] Aeson: And galley landings (of the sort vox can put together) are much easier to kill than by land stacks... we always get the first shot [02:04] nbarclay: Another possibility would be a trade of Chivalry for something we research at the same time. [02:06] nbarclay: But come to think of it, if we pump gold into GoW, that would speed up their research and hence help them get Chivalry faster for both of us. [02:06] GhengisFarb: The counter 200 trade would work. We did go to war the first time they landed but made peace for their city. We never went to war the second time, our diplo options wouldn't let us declare war and their units were gone by the time our Horsemen got to them [02:07] GhengisFarb: Those galleys with Horsemen were looking for a chance to due some pillaging to hopefully make Vox pull back but then Vox attacked you instead and so we decided to use them to scout. [02:08] * Aeson nods [02:09] GhengisFarb: We never intended to take over Vox land just repulse them off of Bob. [02:09] Aeson: We intend to wipe them out. [02:10] GhengisFarb: Repulse them off Little Bob, pretty much the same we were going to do, they just aren' t anywhere else but Little Bob [02:10] Aeson: Aye. [02:10] GhengisFarb: Unless they got an island somewhere.......... [02:11] nbarclay: Just what I was thinking. [02:11] nbarclay: They might actually survive for a while that way. [02:11] alva: they will, right beside lux [02:11] nbarclay: Until someone decides killing them is worth the trouble. [02:11] GhengisFarb: If we find a Vox island we'll let you know [02:12] nbarclay: Thanks, although we may just view the island as the penal colony they were confined to for their crimes. [02:12] alva: squid island [02:13] GhengisFarb: Thats what Nukes are for. [02:13] alva: [02:13] GhengisFarb: the Orkin 5000 nuclear device [02:14] Panzer32[GoW]: Nuclear riders!!! [02:16] Aeson: How long left on those 2 hours? [02:16] GhengisFarb: So is this a done deal? [02:17] Aeson: It needs to be ratified by the team. I think it will pass. What do you think Nathan? [02:17] Aeson: And alva? [02:18] alva: can someone make the offer clear? Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings [02:18] GhengisFarb: I will send the 200 gold, if it doesn't pass then simply don't accept the gold. [02:18] alva: [02:18] alva: [02:19] GhengisFarb: Is 200 gold worth forcing us to side with Togas and Vox? Well? Is it? Punk? (Clint Eastwood voice) [02:19] Aeson: haha [02:19] nbarclay: Agreed on not accepting the gold if we don't ratify the deal. [02:20] alva: [02:20] Aeson: That sounds good. 200 gold obviously isn't worth the price of our honor. We look forward to proving it. [02:20] GhengisFarb: I think this leaves us pumping money into GS and Roleplay pumping money into Vox, which is kinda weird. [02:21] Aeson: Interesting. [02:21] Aeson: Not that Vox has much to do with gold right now. Despots with no more Warriors to upgrade [02:21] nbarclay: Just what I was thinking. [02:21] Aeson: Probably safer having the cash in Vox's hands than RP's [02:22] GhengisFarb: Don't let Togas or Roleplay know that I told you about their comments about embargoing you. It might just be a bunch of BS they were telling us. [02:23] Aeson: We've sorta come to an understanding with Togas and his way of diplomacy. Don't worry. [02:23] GhengisFarb: They may be telling each team a different set of BS to see which ones tell each other what Roleplay is shoveling at them. [02:23] nbarclay: Understood. The more they underestimate how much we're onto their games, the better. [02:23] * Aeson nods [02:24] alva: hmm [02:25] GhengisFarb: I don't think Roleplay will take an active role anyway, they seem to encourage others to fight while colonizing their Seven Cities of Luxuries in the south. [02:25] Aeson: I need to go grap something to eat now. It was a pleasure negotiating with you GF and Panzer. [02:25] GhengisFarb: Likewise. [02:25] Aeson: Bye [02:25] * Aeson has quit IRC (Quit: ) [02:25] alva: bye Aeson [02:25] nbarclay: Anything else we need to discuss? [02:26] alva: I leaving too, if that was all (for now ) [02:26] GhengisFarb: No I beleive we covered everything. [02:26] GhengisFarb: Does anyone have a log of this chat? [02:26] Panzer32[GoW]: I can't think of anything else [02:26] alva: ok, nice to have talked [02:26] alva: see ya next time Clint [02:27] nbarclay: Alva, do you have a complete log? [02:27] nbarclay: Or something close? [02:27] alva: yep [02:27] alva: at least combined with shibers [02:27] GhengisFarb: Can you send me a copy of the log for our team forum? [02:28] alva: sure [02:28] alva: mail? [02:28] GhengisFarb: GhengisFarb AT msn DOT com [02:28] alva: notice, that mines not complete! [02:29] nbarclay: I'll be going too, now. It's been nice doing business. Bye. [02:29] * nbarclay has quit IRC (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net ) [02:30] GhengisFarb: Okay, could you see if Shiber has the first part? [02:31] GhengisFarb: You have the final trade proposal which is the important part. [02:31] alva: I'll ask, but aren't you two often in the chatroom?

Final trade proposal:

We give them 200 gold and troop reports (either accurate or inaccurate, they didn't say the reports had to be accurate)

We are allowed to scout their coast with a Galley loaded with two Veteran Horsemen and get Feudalism in 3 turns with a 10 turn no trade deal.

Lego has agreed to trade us Theology for Feudalism at the end of the 10 turns.

Offered Feudalism to ND at that point for 75 gold.

Offered Feudalism to Roleplay at that point for 75 gold.

Offered Feudalism to Vox at that point for 75 gold.

That would be 225 gold, Feudalism, and Theology for 200 gold.

TOGAS IS AWARE OF THIS DEAL AS HE SEEMS TO THINK WE HAD A TRADE EMBARGO WITH GS?????

	11-04-2003 06:09									#99
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can someone edit the chats so you can see who said what? I'd do it but I'm kinda busy...

	11-04-2003 06:17									#100
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BTW 200 gold... that's too much IMO even though the deal in the end straigthtens itself out way torwards us, giving 200 gold will give GS a much greater upgrade capability and that will only hurt the war effort which we are supposed to be supporting.

Unless I'm missing something, that in the long run could have disastrous consequences if GS is left in a position to recover its strength later.

Why do we have to get into these types of agreements anyway? They had offered Feudalism to ND anyways, we could've just said we had no money or something or that we couldn't spare resources, whatever. What have we got to lose now that GS is at war? Not much.

If GS tippes the balance during the war we will have made the greatest mistake of our lives.

	11-04-2003 06:23									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen can someone edit the chats so you can see who said what? I'd do it but I'm kinda busy...

You rang?

	11-04-2003 09:48									#102
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Trip, I will never make fun of you again in your role as writer of chronicles and your stay here in the warmonger library of Imperial City will be as pleasant as possible, feel free to take a night off at our world-renowed red-light district with the hottest strip clubs this side of Bob, I'm sure you'll apreciate the quality since most of the girls are captured Luxian whores.

just kidding, thanks pal

	11-04-2003 10:42									#103
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The Eye does not look favorably upon you.

	11-04-2003 18:54									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen BTW 200 gold... that's too much IMO even though the deal in the end straigthtens itself out way torwards us, giving 200 gold will give GS a much greater upgrade capability and that will only hurt the war effort which we are supposed to be supporting. Unless I'm missing something, that in the long run could have disastrous consequences if GS is left in a position to recover its strength later. Why do we have to get into these types of agreements anyway? They had offered Feudalism to ND anyways, we could've just said we had no money or something or that we couldn't spare resources, whatever. What have we got to lose now that GS is at war? Not much. If GS tippes the balance during the war we will have made the greatest mistake of our lives.

They offered ND the same deal of 200 gold in SEVEN turns not three. And ND wasn't going to give it to us for another ten turns after that. So it was wait for Feudalism for SEVENTEEN turns (if GS ever finished it which would have been in doubt if they kept putting it off to concentrate on the war effort) or cough up gold now to get it in 3 turns so we can start researching CHIVALRY and get our Riders.

	12-04-2003 00:24									#105
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good synopsis GF

	12-04-2003 00:42									#106
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Again, I am not doubting the short term benefits of this deal, all I'm saying is that I hope those 200 gold doesn't tip the balance... in that case any of our short term benefits disappear in the face of a GS victory againt Vox.

This deal just surprises me considering GF that you said yourself 2 days ago:

quote: There ain't no way I'll agree to give GS anything. Their the big moneybag civ with the triple anyoneelse research rate. The only transaction I see in their future is in blood. Their blood.

then we said 100 at the most. Now 200. What next? I'm aching like you all to get Riders but the risks involved... I'm still not so sure this was the best idea.

	12-04-2003 00:43									#107
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quote: What next?

300!

	12-04-2003 00:58									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen then we said 100 at the most. Now 200. What next? I'm aching like you all to get Riders but the risks involved... I'm still not so sure this was the best idea.

I know, and I fully understand where you are coming from but here's what finally changed my mind:

GS was flat out not going to research Feudalism anymore, they were switching to 90% tax revenue to fund their war effort dropping the delivery time to around 7 turns. We are making around 39 gold per turn and if we switched to full 100% research on Feudalism it would have taken us over 20 turns. At 39 gold we could generate the payment in 6 turn or using the same amount research in in 20........

As much as I didn't like the idea the numbers made my dislike for paying out gold seem childish - the pay now offer was obviously the more logical choice.

That, and the fact that GS was only wanting a 10 turn no trade deal and Lego was simultaneously offering to buy it from us while Togas offered to get it from us, the fact that GS felt they would win the war in 5 turns and that the entire world was allying with them (they really don' t know what they are getting into - in a few turns if this conflict drags out and I think that is a VERY likely scenario - GS will probably continue to delay research on Feudalism) left the very real possibility they might not exist to finish research on Feudalism.

We have like 500 gold in the treasury, it wasn't going to bancrupt us. It may have been the wrong decision, but at the time it seemed like the safer gamble.

	12-04-2003 01:06									#109
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From GS (addressed to GF)

quote: GF, I am including the ratified Feudalism deal with this message. We are holding onto the save to make sure everything is in order before accepting the 200g, also for the screenshot of Voxian troop movements GoW took last turn to better direct our own. Good luck to you and GoW in your naval exploration. We will coordinate things so that neither of our vessels will have to delay any movement for the other's. Sincerely, Aeson quote: GhengisFarb of the Glory of War, It is the pleasure of GS to offer GoW this document confirming our agreement to the matters discussed yesterday. We feel the agreement is best served for both parties with a few particulars that were not touched on in the discussions earlier. These are only suggestions on the part of GS, and if they fail to meet with the approval of GoW they can be erased and the agreement will still stand. These inclusions will be noted with a *. If GoW has any suggestions as to any revisions or additions, GS will give the same consideration to those proposals. This is to allow for the final polish to be added to the agreement while avoiding any further delays in the signing which is time critical at this juncture. In no case will either party be forced to agree to any such additions if they feel they aren't in their own best interests. ------------------------------ The Terms: (currently turn 93) Research and Payment: GoW sends 200g to GS this turn. GS will increase research funding on Feudalism to finish the advance on turn 96. GS promises to deliver Feudalism to GoW as soon as it is researched. GoW agrees to an NDA (NTC) on Feudalism for for the duration of 10 turns from when it is delivered to them. After 10 turns have passed from GoW recieving Feudalism, they are free to do with it as they see fit. Sea ROP: GS gives full access to the Galleys of GoW to navigate the shores of Little Bob. This access will last until GoW has had ample time to explore the circumferance of the continent or GoW is satisfied with the extent of their exploration. GS agrees not to land any units on BoB for the duration of the Sea ROP *plus 10 turns, without explicit consent from GoW. GoW agrees not to land any units on Little Bob for the duration of the Sea ROP *plus 10 turns, without explicit consent from GS. GoW will use a Galley to observe the road between Elipolis and Dissidentville to report Voxian troop movements to GS for a duration of 5 turns. These reports will be in the form of screenshots showing the type and number of Voxian units within the Galley's sight. The Galley will each turn check the tiles NW of Grog Mountain, to 2 tiles South, NW of Vox's cultural borders if not hampered by Voxian vessels. After 5 turns time, the Galley is free to continue on it's way. *If GoW's Galley happens to be sunk by the Voxians, GoW will notify GS of it and the observation requirement will be dropped at that point. GoW's ships in GS territory will not number more than two. Neither will the two venture within 8 tiles of each other. The first vessel will be allowed 2 Horsemen occupants. The second will be empty. This Sea ROP will last until GoW's vessels are able to safely (or suicidally if GoW so chooses) leave GS' waters having explored their extent. Future Chivalry Trade: (can be agreed to now or seperated from the above for further revision) GoW researches Chivalry as soon as Feudalism is delivered to them. GS will give 200g to GoW halfway through GoW's research of Chivalry. GoW will give Chivalry to GS as soon as research is finished. GS will observe an NDA (NTC) on Chivalry equivalent to that which GoW agrees to with Feudalism. After 10 turns have passed from GS receiving Chivalry, they are free to do with it as they see fit. --------------------- This agreement in whole or in part (as noted by *) is hereby officially ratified by The Gathering Storm.

	12-04-2003 03:32									#110
	Remove this text

I understand your points GF and trust me, I back up any decision that is made by the team. If we blunder it will be after all the work of all of us to rectify it but I trust we have made the correct decision.

Again, the arguments towards getting Feudalism are correct and I agree. What bothers me, as you can probably guess I how much this down-payment will aid their war-effort, and as a counter-point, how much our military intervention can counter that.

I am still uneasy about it, I hope I am wrong. I honestly think that GS is just trash talking about how powerful they are supposed to be, and I hope Vox gives them a nice big can of whoop-ass. But fighting GS is like playing Tiger Woods in golf. You have to play your best, and expect him to blunder to hope to win. These guys are good and you can expect to lose against them under all but a very favourable circumstance, that is why I belived this opportunity to be the best to crush them as they will be the biggest threat to us in the future and that I why I am uneasy about supporting them in any way.

I also don't like the restriction which forces us to act as a spy, giving them info on Vox's movements. I think we could have claimed that we cannot stay too long on Vox's shores, thats why we want the Sea RoP, so we can avoid risking our galley. 5 turns is 5 turns less to scout GS land.

But anyway, things are done, let's see how this develops and hope for the best.

	12-04-2003 20:36									#111
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quote: Greetings Panzer32 and GoW, (GhengisFarb is also receiving a copy) We thank GoW for sending the screenshot. Many of our fears have been unjustified it seems. We will still plan for the worst, but the information GoW has provided us is a great comfort. It is also with pleasure that I can bring news that GS' Golden Age has begun after a glorious victory over Voxian Immortals. The added commerce will allow us to research Feudalism a turn earlier than specified in the agreement and we will be able to forward it to GoW a turn earlier as well. We ask that the original ending of the NDA stay at the same turn as agreed upon. It will in essense be the same NDA, only the delivery of the tech happens sooner. I hope this meets with the approval of GoW. Regards, Aeson ps. RP seems to be set upon getting us into a bidding war between us to sell them Feudalism. They have told us that GoW are offering it at 75g after the NDA expires. Perhaps discussion about some form of profit sharing in trading this tech to RP could keep the price up enough that both our nations would profit? Otherwise the price may plumet tremendously and neither side will get even half of what it is worth. If GoW is interested in such a proposal, please let us know.

That wasn't a true screenshot, right GF?

About the RP trade: I haven't heard anything about it. Has anyone been talking to them? If no one has, it is a blatent lie by RP, trying to get the best deal possible.

	12-04-2003 23:43									#112
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Chat with Shiber... he wants the screenshot real soon. He asked me if I would take it and give it to him, and I said I was too busy with other stuff. Anyways, I said GF would send the screenshot ASAP. Anyways, I think we should fabricate the shot while ND does their turn so this won't happen again.

	13-04-2003 00:06									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 That wasn't a true screenshot, right GF? About the RP trade: I haven't heard anything about it. Has anyone been talking to them? If no one has, it is a blatent lie by RP, trying to get the best deal possible.

I posted the shot I sent them in this forum.

AND IT WAS FABRICATED SO NO ONE should send screenshots except for one member to prevent them getting contradicting screenshots.


Oh, and I updated our tech tree image in the Central Trade Thread.

	04-05-2003 05:17									#114
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Zeits back

quote: Honorable Hot_Enamel of the Glory of War Republic. I have just returned home from my long trip abroad, to be back to active duty as ambassador- only to find out our two nations are in a state of war. Although one would surely be alarmed of such news, especially when considering our peaceful relations so far, as well as the war with the Voxians raging (despite the recent good news from the front), I can see that our two nations do not intend to wage a full war against one another- there were no incidents beyond the two horsemen landing, which ended as expected. In addition to that, the 10 turn non disclosure agreement signed with regard to the Feudalism trade was honored, which was another sign of your intentions. We also assumed that since you are now under the rule of a senate, that the live war cabinet broadcasts (despite the lack of "war") are quite popular among the populace. This reason alone would be enough to justify being in a formal state of war. However, if we intend to exploit the benefits of tech trade, namely Chivalry, we'll have to make peace some day. On that regard- what is your estimate on completing the research? Also, please allow me to send my condolences to the the families of those horse riders who fell in battle against our troops- killing is always hard, especially when it is done against those we do not consider enemies. Waiting to hear from you. Zeit, ambassador of the Gatherig Storm.

Why am I not surprised this came only 3 hours after my war of words with GS in the public forum.

1. They are now a little worried about us...perhaps uncertain of our true intentions.
2. They want our Chivalry
3. We could ask for monetary compensation for the wives and familys of the two lost horsemen ?

Regs

	04-05-2003 05:19									#115
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Here was my quick reply ...

quote: Zeit, ambassador of the Gatherig Storm. Welcome back Zeit, it is good to hear from you again. I will post this in our forum and get back to you with some answers ASAP. I do believe that we can return to normal trading relations very soon. I am quite certain, the state of war between us is only a temporary thing. With our recent shake up of adminstration within the GoW team, I am not sure if I remain your ambassador. I will check into this as well. From what we hear, you have been very successful within the war. May your good fortune continue Here is a little internal GoW role playing news.... I have been allocated my own city. Fortunately, I complained that I could never remember how to spell Liechtenstein, GF graciously renamed it "The Hill" Thus my new title...King of the Hill Good Luck Hot_Enamel, King of the Hill For the Glory of War

But we will have to get back to them with some definitative answers/demands/propaganda.

Regs

	04-05-2003 10:32									#116
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Chivalry??? Sure, and we'll lend them some Riders too

I mentioned in another thread that sunday we're having a chat with Vox and RP , 8 PM EST. I say we hold off a decision on further diplomatic options with GS until that chat.

	04-05-2003 14:56									#117
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The deal originally negotiated is for them to give us our 200 gold back for Chivalry.

	04-05-2003 16:56									#118
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That would almost guarantee Vox's destruction.

What is our study rate ?
We should slow it down as much as possible.

	04-05-2003 21:16									#119
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Which would also give us time to hoard even more Horsemen... 30 should be enough

BTW... I think we need to start building new cities once our horseman construction complete. There's a lot of empty space and I'm worried that we'll fall on production, according to the F11 screen we're in 3rd place, I assume GS and Lego are 1 and 2.

	05-05-2003 06:27									#120
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen BTW... I think we need to start building new cities once our horseman construction complete. .

That's why all the major cities were told they had to cough up a settler.