14-05-2003 15:32									#121
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This needs a response ASAP.

Master Zen, I suggest you send something..otherwise it has to wait for another 24 hours from me.

quote: Dear Hot_Enamel, King of the Hill and consul of the Glory of War Republic. Finnaly the world is turning again. I trust that you don't take Al-Sah... eh, BetaHound's preposterous reasonings behind the cause of all this- after all, it was NYE, one of our founding fathers of our nations that has helped in the restoration of normalcy. I hope all is well in The Hill, you certainly have a nice view from up there. I also hope that you will retain your post as an ambassador, for I have certainly enjoyed our correspondence, and felt it's positive contribution to the relations between our two nations. More good news have come from the front, as our troops are continuing to inflict loses upon the Voxian foe, I'm sorry i can not tell you more than that for now, but i'm sure you understand. I have yet to recieve a response regarding the issues I have raised in my earlier message: most importantly Peace agreement and the Chivalry deal. Please reply as soon as you can Cordially Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

Zeits email is

name @ attglobal.net
name = zeitan

I sent him a 2 line anser saying we will get back to him ASAP, and not to worry about Chiv.

	14-05-2003 18:27									#122
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Well, Zen is now banned from GoW for a bit, so I'm going to post this in the GoW forum at MZO so that he can look at it.

	14-05-2003 20:31									#123
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If I happen to see zeit online, Ill pass him a word just in case as well.

	15-05-2003 18:03									#124
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reply from MasterZen:

quote: Good, very good they still think we'll give them Chivalry! I say we make peace, and assure them of the Chivalry deal... it will delay their own science and those WC-Knight upgrade which we're sure will follow.

So, H_E, I guess that you can go ahead and mail GS about peace/chivalry.

	15-05-2003 18:42									#125
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Done

	31-05-2003 13:38									#126
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From Zeit 2 days ago (forgot to post it )

quote: Hello Master Zen! Thank you for your quick reply- it certainly encourages me that I have someone to talk to... Since interest in the game is no at its lowest since the begining, you can probably imagine what an unemployed diplomat I am. With most teams concentrating on keeping pace with the turn cycle and making those life and death decision- there is little time left for day to day diplomacy. Hopefully this will now change with regard to the GoW. And now, to business. You may or may not know, but when we signed the Feudalism trade agreement, we also talked about a future tech trade, with you selling Chivalry to us. This was the issue I was talking about with Hot_Enamel when he told me he would be stepping down. He mentioned that as far as he knows, the deal is still intact, but what he didn't tell me was when your tedh is due to be researched. If you can spare us the infomation, I'd be most glad. Many Thanks Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

	31-05-2003 13:55									#127
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I told him that we would get it in "more or less" 10-13 turns.

However, I actually avoided saying the deal is still on..

quote: Hello Zeit! Sorry for not replying so fast this time, problem is I am extremely busy finding an "official" ambassador to your team, as I have told you I am dealing with all 5 teams personally and it is quite a burden, especially also considering my ISDG responibilities. I hope GF and donegeal come back from their "vacations" soon! Anyway, about Chivalry, I haven't checked the last save personally but I believe the estimated time of arrival for it is about 10-13 turns give or take, I'm not very sure but I don't recall it being much more than that. Well, must keep on anwering more PMs... (I love and hate this job at the same time) Best regards to you and your team -Master Zen P.S. Tell Arrian to watch out for the Womynists, they're dangerous

	31-05-2003 14:45									#128
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Oh Dear ...

It seems I may have to borrow Beta's Mohammed al-Sahaf avatar

I sent this to Zeit 2 weeks ago... it is the message he talks about....sorry..I should of posted it....I thought I did.

quote: Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm. It seems our illustrious Foreign Affairs leader (Master Zen) has got himself banned from our boards Due to my timezone difficulties, I think my team as a whole wanted to keep on top of the GS/Vox situation, and it was too hard for me to be on-line at the same time. It seemed easier for me to step down from my ambassadorship, while the war remains the hot topic. Master Zen did indeed say he would like to deal with you guys direct. My short replies were more to ensure I did not step on any toes. Anyway...he has sent word by pigeon that the Chivalry deal remains, and we will most likely accept peace. The war thing was more to keep Vox off our back. They would be less likely to turn attention onto us if they thought we were at war with you. Mater Zen should be back soon. Once the war is over, and attention is diverted elsewhere, I would not be surprised is I am given back my post Congrats of your war victories...leave a few wonders for us Regards Hot_Enamel King of the Hill For the Glory of War

So..it looks like my name will be mud on the boards when we screw GS.

(Although, I still maintain we would be better to screw Vox)

	05-06-2003 19:02									#129
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We need a chat time with GS to discuss a possible shift in loyalties, as discussed in another thread.

	05-06-2003 19:58									#130
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I can ask for a time if you guys want...

	05-06-2003 21:37									#131
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UnOrthO, do you want to be GS ambassador??

(please say yes, please say yes....)

	05-06-2003 21:57									#132
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Ok, Ok...

zeit and I have had some very professional talks. I actually enjoy the way they conduct diplomacy, annoying as it is, since I feel right at home (working with the airforce is pretty much the same).

Let me go find zeit.


anyone have a problem with the following before I send it?

quote: Honorable zeit, It is my pleasure to inform you that both RL circumstances and some organizational changes within GoW have landed me back 'home' as the ambassador to Gathering Storm. I look forward to hearing from you in the future and hope that we can continue the many pleasant talks that I have come to expect from Gathering Storm. There has been much discussion within the forums of GoW about the nature of the GS/Voxian war. I need not remind you that there is no love lost between GoW and Vox since the time of their attempted invasion of Bob. It is our understanding that had ND and RP not backed us in an effort to remove them from our island it would be GoW, and not GS that would be dealing with the Immortal army at their gates. Would it be possible that our teams meet up in a chat to discuss the nature of the war, and, specifically what, if anything, GoW may due to lend their support either openly, or in private, that we may see through the removal of a team that has proven itself to be no more than a loose cannon? Sincerely, UnOrthOdOx Vice CALF and Ambassador of the GoW Team

	05-06-2003 23:53									#133
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* UnOrthOdOx decides to post his ramblings and ravings.

IMO we should play this in the following way: The only way I can see ourselves comming out with a decent rep due to our existing contract with Vox...

Come right out and admit to being hired by Vox we ARE mercenaries after all. Tell them we are under contract for 6 units, 2 of which have already been killed, 4 remaining. Tell them, perhaps that we know that Vox is being funded from a third party, but cannot divulge the nation responsible on a point of honor.

We should tell them we have been misled this entire war, of the make up of the Vox Army, and of how the war faired. Tell them of the further plans Vox originally had for us to post screens, even photoshopped screens, to further deceive GS into believing they had again invaded Bob, which we refused.

We have already committed 4 units to their island, that must attack GS. The nature of the contract lists nothing about them not also attacking Vox, however, and we are willing to attack a city or two on our way to the GS army should they desire help.

Once our 4 units are done, we care nothing of the matters of thier island, but would hope some arrangement could be made for Iron should war break out on Bob and deprive us of our own.

Well?

	06-06-2003 00:39									#134
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How do people feel about dishonouring us sending 4 units to help Vox? I feel that attacking GS with them would be counterproductive at this point. Why don't we either get GS to pay us something for calling them off, and then if we want (and if GS agrees) we can invade Vox with them.

	06-06-2003 01:09									#135
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And is the above PM ok to send?

Personally, I know it is counter-productive. The question is, would it be more counter porductive in the future to not honor this contract now?

Vox WILL JOIN THE OTHER TEAMS. Is it worth more to have ourselves as honoring ALL our deals?

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 06-06-2003 at 01:18

	06-06-2003 01:47									#136
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I think the message is fine.

	06-06-2003 06:15									#137
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Yep...I like it too..

Here are some quick thoughts of things that need to be be clarified with GS.

Our Chivalry trade is still valid…we have every intention of honouring our deal with them. We are getting a LOT of heat from Vox and its allies to not sell it to you. However, GoW has never reneged on a deal ever…and this still remains our policy.

Our state of war… We remain at war, NOT for the happiness boost. We remain at war, because we want Vox and its allies off our back. GS is aware, that teams are on the Voxian cheer squad. Keeping our state of war is keeping them off our back.

We are concerned that RolePlay are trying to turn the current argument into a “If was GoW’s fault that we didn’t buy Feudalism”. The GoW wishes to ensure GS that we abided by our agreement when we purchased Feudalism, and we did NOT twist anybodies arm to purchase it off us instead.

We are concerned with some of the comments that GS has made about other teams encouraging Vox to attack GS. Certainly GoW has offered some help (explained below) but we wish to ensure GS, that it was NOT GoW’s idea for Vox to invade. We mention this, because we also have been receiving reliable intelligence, that it was GS who has been encouraging Vox to invade Bob and attack GoW. We are concerned that someone has been stirring the pot between our two teams.

We wish to inform GS of our exact nature of our relationship with Vox. We are not aligned with Vox. Yes we are rooting for the underdog, but that is a natural human reaction. We have not signed a Military alliance, not and will not happen no matter how much pressure Vox and its allies put on us.
What did happen is the following:
Vox invaded Bob (Supposedly at GS’s recommendation and encouragement)
Bob repelled Vox, and Vox left.
Vox contacted us, and said they would like to make a deal on Port Isolation.
Port Isolation, for military help against a war with GS and a discounted price for Engineering.
The GoW has never hidden the fact that we are a mercenary team, open to the highest bidder. A financial transaction was made, to SELL Vox 6 units. These units are mercenaries, and once the deal was made, GoW no longer has any interest in them.
2 mercenary units have already invaded GS territory.
Had GS asked, we would have told you that they are Voxian units, and GoW had no interest in them what-so-ever.
Thus, the reason for our indifference when you killed them.
Our concern is…We still owe Vox 4 units.
When you see them.. Please remember that we have no interest in these units if they live or die. They are Voxian units dressed in GoW clothing. We are not sending any additional units other than those already contracted.

The GoW would like to know what study route GS has chosen.

The GoW would certainly like to ensure GS, that we consider our relationship as strong friends.

	06-06-2003 08:00									#138
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If we perform how H_E is suggesting, then we can help our relationship with GS, as we demonstrate our loyalty to signed contracts. I like that.

	06-06-2003 08:38									#139
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Now for the "evil" part....

We need GS neutral during the RP war, AT ALL COSTS. If GS landed a stack of 10 units (which they are perfectly capable of given their galleys and Lighthouse) on Bob, it would be an incredible distraction to our forces.

Thus, we must act nice to GS and securing their eventual neutrality during our little adventure. How to do this? To feed them animosity against RP. However, from the Public Announcment thread I think RP are already doing us this favor...

BigFree just PMed me, saying that RP will most likely be selling Vox its iron. It is a no-brainer. We have no iron to give to Vox. ND has two and one of them goes to us. Lego is too far away. When GS sees that Vox has iron, it will be more than obvious that it is RP who is selling them the iron.

If frictions continue between them then the coast is clear for us to attack RP. All that is left is for Lego to forgoe financial aid, but we still have time to plan that out...

	06-06-2003 09:06									#140
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Another thing in our favour ...

We always suspected it, but I think ND confirmed it in our chat

ND & GS =

ND will keep GS off our back.
(Unless they plan on screwing us over, which would really be game over for us)

Another thing.... The GS invasion and their city placement was just too sweet.
ND has sold their/our world map to GS. I will bet my left nut on it.

Regs

	06-06-2003 09:31									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Another thing.... The GS invasion and their city placement was just too sweet. ND has sold their/our world map to GS. I will bet my left nut on it. Regs

Agree with the invasion.

What I don't agree is on city placement. It is well known that 3-tile city spacing is far superior to any other on standard maps. Frankly, given their depth, their city placement was incredibly smart but I would have expected nothing less from them. 3-tile gives you the ability to defend and attack without exposing your attacking force on open ground. They can grill Vox's immortals from the safety of their walled cities. Plus, 3 tile means they can move from city to city in one turn.

Why am I saying this? because our city placement sucks balls. We are in 2nd to last place on great deal because of this. We are not a commercial civ therefore cannot afford the luxury of having such spaced out cities. Becuase of the spacing we have a very unproductive core and we have no way of separating military cities from settler/worker pumps and big productive cities.

Looking at GS's relatively crappy land (despite a very favorable starting position) I'm very appalled to see why we have such good land and we're so far behind. Hopefully it is not too late to change things.

	06-06-2003 10:45									#142
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MZ .. I was actually refering to GS's two new cities in Vox's territory. They are very well placed, and I dont think they could of come up with those locations so easily without prior knowledge of the Vox map.


But you are correct on our city placement.
Our strategy has been different to GS.

GS admit they started as 100% builder policy.
They only had Vox to worry about.
They had a NAP with Vox, and had minimal military.
They had less land, and have had to eek every bit of productivity out of every inch of it.

We on the other hand, have been switching policies due the changing nature of Bob.

We started off with a tight build with camps
We wanted to go for a few early wonders including the pyramids. (Our land was so good that we thought we could snatch them)
But then when we found the layout of the land...
ND was expanding North. Lux was expanding west.

So we made some land grabs, and made the decision to keep our cities on hills. As we would be stretched thin, and the extra defense would help us.

Then the war with Lux...we switched and rushed military builds.
Which was then a waste of time, as we did not attack one unit. (Lux disbanded everything)

Then we tried to grab some Lux land

Then we have the Vox war and we want military again.

And now our capital is stuck with a wonder prebuild....
etc etc etc.


We have been a little disjointed for sure...where as GS have successfully been able to stick with the one plan.
1. Because they are experts
2. Because their neighbours allowed it.

Certainly what surprised us all (this really was a test PBEM) was how fast we have screamed up the tech tree. I and a I am sure our team thought we would have a much slower tech pace, and therefore more time to build.

Many teams have been caught out.
Lego admits they attempted a land grab before they realised they were alone on their continent...(but even now, I think they would still be grabbing land)
RP have gone for a huge land grab, and now have major corruption problems. (I recall commenting how pathetic their city placement was)

ND has been the most successful team on Bob.


I just think that the small scale of GS land, and the fact that they had good peaceul neighbours resulted in them having a more effecient build.

All of the Bob teams have been trying to balance land/grabs & military builds since the start of the game. Everyone on our continent was bullying each other and flexing muscles.

Certainly everyone now knows a tight build is far superior...its just that we went for land because our two neighbours were pushing into our territory.


Sorry... I am rambling ...
Your point is very true Master Zen ... nothing we can do about it though...
Our objective now, is to backfill ASAP and ride our GA for some catchup in infastucture.

	06-06-2003 11:21									#143
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You are not rambling H_E, au contraire, it was a very informative post for me considering I have not been on the team from the start.

I do not want to sound like I was insulting or offending whoever designed our city placement. I understand that the nature of the politics of Bob have made us adopt a scheme which may not have been the most optimal one.

As for GS being experts, well yes, they are a very devoted bunch, they will argue about one single tile's production until they find the most optimum strategy. Good for them, I still don't believe we are any short of talent, we may be few but we are good (well, I'm speaking for you guys of course). Just because we are not strat forum regulars or make spreadsheets and stuff does not mean we are not talented and I am more than confident that with enough effort and dedication we can pull through.

Granted we have the one thing GS does not have: diplomacy. Sure, we might eventually get backstabbed, or we will make mistakes, but still, I think we have come up with the most innovative policies, and I think we can read the geo-political situation of the world better than any other team. Let's use that to our advantage but let's not think that diplomacy alone will win this game if we don't have sufficient infrastructure.

I know Panzer would probably love a more in-depth review of our builder policies. It would be perhaps a good idea to start thinking up of a more long term plan for the medium-term. Our GA will make or break us.

	06-06-2003 17:00									#144
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I have one minor adjustment to HE's proposal.

I still say we should keep our employer a mystery. Why not? Simply say that we have been paid for 6 units. Allow them to assume whomever they wish as being the employer.

	06-06-2003 19:07									#145
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quote: I know Panzer would probably love a more in-depth review of our builder policies. It would be perhaps a good idea to start thinking up of a more long term plan for the medium-term. Our GA will make or break us.

, how did you know!!

Maybe I'll start a thread right now discussing these things.

	06-06-2003 19:51									#146
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I have one minor adjustment to HE's proposal. I still say we should keep our employer a mystery. Why not? Simply say that we have been paid for 6 units. Allow them to assume whomever they wish as being the employer.

You are truely a devious person Unorthodox !!

Trying to get Roleplay into even more trouble !!

good idea though

	06-06-2003 23:03									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel You are truely a devious person Unorthodox !!

Thanks.

Another little snipit to go into my sig once this game is over...right next to MRWIA's "agents of chaos" line

	07-06-2003 03:34									#148
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And with guys like UnOrthO in our team, anybody still doubt we have abundant talent in our ranks???

	07-06-2003 19:36									#149
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Again, I say that we need a chat with GS.

I sent this to Shiber, as the last one to Zeit hasn't got a response:

quote: Hello Shiber, I'm not sure who to send this to, but as I remember that you had something to do with foreign affairs and are currently online, I'm sending it to you. The Glory of War would like to have a chat with GS sometime soon. I know that a PM has been sent to Zeit, and we have not heard back from him. Here is the message (originally sent by Unorthodox): quote: Honorable zeit, It is my pleasure to inform you that both RL circumstances and some organizational changes within GoW have landed me back 'home' as the ambassador to Gathering Storm. I look forward to hearing from you in the future and hope that we can continue the many pleasant talks that I have come to expect from Gathering Storm. There has been much discussion within the forums of GoW about the nature of the GS/Voxian war. I need not remind you that there is no love lost between GoW and Vox since the time of their attempted invasion of Bob. It is our understanding that had ND and RP not backed us in an effort to remove them from our island it would be GoW, and not GS that would be dealing with the Immortal army at their gates. Would it be possible that our teams meet up in a chat to discuss the nature of the war, and, specifically what, if anything, GoW may due to lend their support either openly, or in private, that we may see through the removal of a team that has proven itself to be no more than a loose cannon? Sincerely, UnOrthOdOx Vice CALF and Ambassador of the GoW Team Thanks Panzer32, Consul of Internal Affairs and temporary Emperor of the Glory of War.

	07-06-2003 20:05									#150
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quote: RE: Greetings from GoW Dear UnOrthOdOx. I'm very glad we can work together again, my ambassadorship in the GoW was most satisfying thanks to Hot_Enamel and yourself. I'll have to apologize, though- my participation in the next few days won't be as I would have liked to be- you know, exams period... I'll try to have the list ready for you in the next 24 hours. As for the psychology of the game- I never looked at it from a Jungian POV. He does talk about symbols and "magic circle" (mandala) as innate part of our culture and personality, and the ultimate goal of integrating the different archetypes in order to reach psychological balance. Or is it the combination of Introvert or Extrovert along with one of the four psychological functions (thinking, feeling, sensing, intuiting) that he describes that you find applicable to players in the game? I have heard the Jugian Theory and therapy method is rapidly growing in popularity in the recent years. I have no idea about this beyond the very basics of his earliest working- and I'd love to hear more about it from you, if you're willing. Cordially Zeit

I recieved this last night, but there was nothing about a chat, so didn't post it. Just to be clear.

And the list he speaks of is I asked for who was in what governmental position within GS

I added in personal comment to zeit about the overall psychology of the game, since he commented on making it a test in the public announcement thread. I think that distracted him a bit too much? Hence the Jungian questions.

Anyway, I answered this one back with some comments on Jungian psychology and how it applies to this game, if anyone is really interested in that (since it has nothing to do with Foreign affairs really) I can post it as well.