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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Hi Arnelos, Hi Togas.
Things are getting interesting.
1. GS, GoW and ND have agreed to lock Lego out of tech deals going into the Industrial Era.
2. Also, GoW-ND have proposed a 3-way hit on Lego, striking soon between Mil Trad and Rifles/Rails. The tech embargo will help widen that window.
GS approves the hit on Lego, intended to damage rather than destroy them, but is seeking to minimise if not avoid our own military involvement. GoW/ND want our committment to (a) cover their asses and (b) maximise chances of success on Lego.
GS feel that GoW/ND are strong enough to do the job on their own, but might be able to raise a token force to hit Lego from the west after ND/GoW get established, and following a period of 'neutrality'. We have disbanded most of our navy, and will be maintaining the sea-wall intact, so we have a limited capacity at our disposal and it will take time to raise an Expeditionary Force - should it come to that. We would be supplied with saltpeter from Bob.
GS was not planning on war, and is not geared up for it. We are obviously taking time to consider all this - including how it all might shake out. We have not reached a final position on how we will respond to the proposal, following the chat with GoW and ND yesterday. Part of the deal would be a GS undertaking not to try anything on Bob during the attack on Lego.
Meanwhile, there are a few points RP might want to consider:
1. Units.
What we could send, if we're in on it, would be what's available, which in turn depends on your plans and estimates for your sea wall. We had previously suggested you can either use GS units on your wall if you want, or build your own. If you could let us know what the projected unit situation would be over the next 10 turns or so, that would help us asses the options.
2. Vox
The question of Vox's free tech has arisen. We expect it to go to Lego, but there is always doubt about their relationship with the Green Blob. GoW, who are supplying Vox with free wine, will be trying to find out about this. We know that RP are skilled in the subtle arts of deduction and information gathering. Any light that you might be able to shed on this subject could be very valuable.
Personally, I would be dubious about bringing Vox up-to date for one tech, risking that two or three others could fall into Lego's hands.
3. Opportunity for RP?
The timing of the conflict may be a little too soon for your Conquistador, but when I asked MZ whether he'd considered the impact of a stack of Conq's tearing into Lego's dark heart, he was very interested. He's had some fun with that unit lately, and sees its potential.
We hope you find this of interest.
Regards,
Cort
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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I fired this to Cort Haus:
quote:
Cort Haus,
GodKing and I have started working on an idea for using the GoW/ND -vs- Legoland conflict to the advantage of GS/RP. Here's what I had in mind.
We play along with GoW/ND's invasion plans of Legoland and we even provide some means of aiding them to convince them that we want them to succeed (which we do!). We do not, however, agree to contribute forces of our own (or at least not substantial forces without payment of a chunk of Southern Bob on which we can get saltpeter).
We play along up to the point when GoW and ND have landed forces on Legos and the war is in full swing.
At that point, we have a fork in the road. If we have already obtained saltpeter and GS has already upgraded most of their knights to cavalry, you land them ON BOB and move to raze as many cities of the ND and/or GoW cores as possible. Once their cores have been razed, your cavalry forces attempt to mop up what is left of resistence on Bob over time and clear enough territory for a serious GS/RP presence on Bob, including the holding of a good number of luxuries and enough land with all strategic resources.
Since we would be joining the Legoland/Vox side of the conflict, we might even be able to get some assistance from Vox in this endeavor, especially if we agreed to pay them with a chunk of GoW's lands (especially that island of theirs) in return.
Legoland will still be powerful, likely, but at least some of their homeland will be damaged, perhaps even some key cities razed by the GoW/ND forces. Since we will still be a long ways from Amphibious Warfare, ND/GoW cannot exact retribution against us on Estonia, and the best they could hope for is to retreat from Legos and send their troops home... but by the time their troops would get home, much of their core cities would already be razed.
We could work in tandem with Legoland and Vox to track down and destroy whatever remained of GoW/ND forces.
The endgame could be decided on primarily builder means with Legoland using a damaged Legos homeland and their Vox allies and GS using Estonia and a healthy chunk of Bob with their RP allies. First to spaceship wins?
RP gets their homeland back, Vox gets expanded territory, GS gets a very large chunk of Bob themselves, GoW and ND get eventually knocked out of the game or so seriously wiped down that they are no longer a factor (and thus eventually wiped out).
It's an idea, at least.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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From Cort (response to me):
quote:
quote:
We worry, however, that by stopping Legoland and leaving Bob to build, we may be acting to hand ND rather than Legoland the game...
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This view was expressed by one person on our forum too, to which Theseus replied :
quote:
* I don;t care what happens to Lego... damaged or destroyed, the key is to turn Legoland into a war-torn hell, where ND and GoW are compelled to commit serious forces to protect whatever they want to keep from all, including each other.
* Perhaps the most important point I can make: AFTER smashing Lego's bricks, we need to reduce ND's production power ... . This will require diplo maneuvers with GoW, military action, gaining control of the Bobian luxuries, etc. Whatever happens post-GAUL, ND's production capabilities *must* be diminished. My guess is that this will be with Tanks, supported by Cavs /Conqs in a razing role.
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The narrow black stripe on the north of Bob - laughingly described as "GoW's half of Bob" strongly suggsts that ND intend to win this on their own. The added fact that ND were, at the time of the Embassy, supplying more lux to Lego than to GoW speaks volumes too, IMV.
GS intends for Stormia, again in T's words, to be "bristling like a friggin' porcupine" by the time Marines come round - which in addition to the inherent tension btw GoW and ND makes an inter-Bobian war highly likely. Neither would be easily able to defend its Legonian holdings, and defend their homelands from each other. Thus - any holdings on Lego would be hard to hold.
If either Lego or (less likely) GoW were to be too strong after Lego was defeated, GS would expect to work with the other.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Thanks for that news, Togas. It clarifies our plans, and how they fit into the bigger picture.
GS wants to see an assault on Lego, and is willing to strategically ally itself with GoWND for this purpose, but we don't want to shift a single shield off our builder program if we can help it. Nor will we lift a single unit off the sea-wall. Only if we have no coal, and we see some on the west coast of Lego, would we raise our commitment.
So, we have a mighty army of about 12 units available, which, by the symetry of fate, fit nicely on the 3 galleons we'll have available. We've asked GoW when they'd like to go, if the operation was to proceed, and we wait their response.
Also - as you guys have been discussing, the elimination of Lego is not the best outcome and we don't want to go out of our way to help them achieve that. The destruction of Lego would not be disastrous, as the spoils would be unstable and hard to hold, but best would be a nice long meatgrinder affair - with the destruction of a few of Lego's core cities, especially the Wonders, and the vaporisation of huge quantities of Lego, GoW and ND units.
GoWND want GS in for two reasons. (1) To cover their own backs, and (2) to increase the odds of quick success. They know that GS want Lego damaged, and we can't pretend otherwise. We have already indicated to them that we believe that two big, strong, warmongering civs like GoW/ND have enough to go and give Lego a bloody nose, but we are happy to offer a token force if this is enough to make the war go ahead.
Essentially, for GS, getting Lego into a war now will destract them from the tech path to Scientific Method and allow GS to build the Theory of Evolution and hopefully on to the Hoover Dam. This would be the production platform for a mid-to-late Industrial military to (a) defend Stormia and (b) bid for Bob. With Lego damaged, ND could realistically face a GS/RP/GoW alliance where RP's UU would be able to deliver a negotiating position for land on Bob, and much damage to ND's production capacity.
Without the war, and with their GA and Vox's free tech Lego could get to Sci Method around the same time as GS. The war will force them to take 2 extra techs in Mil Trad and Nat. We reckon their GA has come too soon for them to take full advantage of - using it for cheap MA techs rather than eating up 4-turn IA techs.
One other thing, we got Metallurgy in a deal from GoW this turn, so make a note in you diary - the NTA expires in 20 turns - that's when we'll be able to bring you into the IA.
Regards,
Cort.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
URGENT! Correct my mistake, please!
Togas,
I'm sorry, I hope you can correct this. I sent you Chemistry accepted in the PTWDG, as I thought it to be strange we didn't gave it yet. However, we still have a NDA agreement we need to keep in mind. We don't want to break that, of course, so please don't accept the trade!
Further, your payment of gpt has stopped, we hope you can help us out some more. Currently, we're working towards getting the ToE, and if GoW would help, we should be able to get it before Lego has a chance.
Other points: You now have a size 9 city, do you need another lux for that? we still have one source ready we can share with you.
And last point: don't you need another city on your territory to make best use of how you work all available tiles?
cheers,
DeepO
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Togas,
we'll be sending you Chemistry this turn as its NDA has expired. That means we can send physics next turn, and ToG and Magnetism the turn after that. However, for Metallurgy, we're going to need to wait until turn 196, as it still holds an NDA. I'm sorry we can't get you to the industrial age any sooner.
Other things: when looking at the save, it looks like you can put another city on El Paso 77. EP 89 is also an option, but sacrificing your cow would be too much. And San Antonio could split in SA8 and SA2, but that would mean you have to disband a city, which of course is not so nice. EP 77 seems a good choice, though.
Lux: I forgot to notice last time you already had incense. We only have furs and incense, and are giving furs allready. So no additional lux, I'm afraid. Sorry for getting your hopes up.
Right now, we've got Steam (but can't send it to you before you enter the industrial age), but you lack a source of coal, and we only have one. However, we can probably RR your land for you, in 10 turns time we should have a couple of spare workers for this task. Any sooner is no use: without Steam, you won't benefit from the RRs in your territory.
The other teams have all entered the industrial age, and Vox received Nationalism as a free tech. Lego doesn't have it yet, but will probably receive it next turn or so. Lego is 3 or 4 turns behind us in the tech race.
We're on our ways to the ToE, and if all goes well (especially if GoW does not backstab us), we will get it. No other team can beat us. That should also mean we get Hoover. However, to be absolutely perfect in efficiency, we're running short on gold... is there any chance you can spare an additional 40 gold (one time payment)? If you need it, we should be able to send it back in a couple of turns
I hope all is going well, please don't hesitate to contact us if you need something.
DeepO
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
PTWDG
Togas,
we'll be sending you Metallurgy next turn, after the NDA runs out. So Steam in the turn after that one.
Medicine we received from GoW, so we can't give that to you before the NDA runs out (Turn 212). Nationalism holds an NDA to turn 215, and probably Industrialisation will arrive next turn, so NDA to 216. Please don't pay for those techs, as you will receive them from us once we can.
Also, now that you will get steam, and we have most of our territory RRed, we can improve your land for you. Please move all your workers out of the way, and set them to chopping the remaining forests. I can't promise that you'll see our worker gang in 2 turns already, but its better to get your territory up asap, so if that means our mountains have to wait a while, so be it. If you want mines somewhere instead of irrigation, tell so now, and I'll put it in the plans. Oh, and your hills will have to wait until after ours are done
greetz,
DeepO
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Togas,
steam is under way. Also, we've RRed 7 of your tiles this turn, and will be able to RR another 9 next turn. This should cover all 'free' flat land. We've got a Galleon sailing closer, which can serve as lookout, so you will be able to move your sea wall out of the way for 1 turn, so that we can RR the rest of your tiles, I think it's a bit quicker than what your workers can do.
If I counted right, I've got 3 workers extra, so you can pick one tile which we can mine next turn, on top of the 9 RRs. Or, you can switch a RR for an additional mine. I prefer to not risk anything with the sea wall next turn, so we'd like to keep your defenders in place, but other then that you can have 30 workers at your disposal for one turn. (maybe 33). I'm not promising these, as plans do change at last instance when the new turn arrives, but normally no problem should be there. So if you have any preferences, let me know.
Other stuff: Next turn, we'll be sending you electricity. Other techs will have to wait, as they haven't been traded to others yet, or were obtained from others and carry NDAs. Further, we're currently en route for Hoover (should get it too), and are at least 12 turns in advance in tech to anyone else. Plans are being made to go offensive in a short while (tanks), but nothing really concrete has emerged yet. But it will be a good idea to have some horses, or conquistadores ready, apart from the markets and banks. Oh, with a few boats to transport them of course
greetz,
DeepO
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09-02-2004 02:36
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