16-12-2003 14:38									#511
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Here's the PM I sent to a few people. Nowhere in it do I say that GS acted cowardly. What I did say was that the IDEA of RP leaving Bob compeltely and taking all of our units with us "stinks because it smells of shame and fear.

I did say I was not happy with GS'es decsion not to keep pressing foward against GoW because they are fearful of Lego AND the tactical mistake of moving all those knights out in the open so ND and GoW could wipe them out. It was simply a huge mistake on GS'es part that I was not to happy with. That said, I'm still glad they tried to help us though it really was them thinking that we would end up helping them more in the long run had we been successful. GS wants to win and we pledged to help them to that end. They did not help us out of pure pity; they wanted a viable partner to help them with things like research and such.

quote: I'm sorry. First for not responding sooner, but I was fuming over GS'es decision not to go after GoW with Lego's threats notwithstanding. And for GS'es decison to withdraw those Knights that got masacared! Secondly because I think the idea stinks because it smells of shame and fear. I do not like it. I want to do everything we can to make the war as costly for GoW and ND as possible. Here's why: GoW is out to help Lego win, period. GoW will try to win it themselves; they know that they can't and have resigned themselves to help Lego as much as RP did towards GS. The only real chance we have is to try and sway ND towards our side. Otherwise, I want to hole up in Pamplona and make them have to bleed for it. Either that or abandon it and take our units and head North with them to do as mush pillaging as we can against GoW. cc: Aidun, Arnelos, Cort Haus, OPD, Togas quote: quote: Cort Haus wrote on 13-12-2003 15:47: Arnelos, I've been thinking long and hard about the current balance of forces on Bob, and in the world. On Bob, the recent carnage has left RP in a far stronger position than they were a few turns ago, and have also left Lego in a commanding game position. Now may be the time for all four nations in the Bobian war to make a final settlement. I believe that RP could negotiate a deal with GoW and ND which grants peace and land rights to RP on Bob, plus a generous tech and luxury package to RP and GS in exchange for existing cities (including Pamp, Barca, New Madrid). RP palace moves to Miller Town where they have 5 cities on Estonia, plus a negotiable token city presence on Bob - to be decided amongst the Bobians. GS would have no part in those land negotiations. GS also assures GoW and ND that they will not intervene or land on Bob while ND and GoW go and take Lego down a peg or two. (destroying Bach and Sistine, for example) I've posted the this thinking on our private forum for our team to consider - so this is just an idea and not our team position - but I think both teams should be thinking about this option. If GS and RP like it, we can push it at GoW and ND to see what they think. We have to move fast - I feel that the participants in this war should not be wasting a single shield on each other that they now should be saving for Lego. Regards, Cort Haus cc BigFree, Aidun

	16-12-2003 14:41									#512
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One more PM I didn't post; but that I CC'ed to a few members...

quote: Thanks, but I'm afraid we are a backwards people who have not opened a text book in quite some time due to the wars that ravage 'Bob'. Unless you could part with it very cheaply I'm afraid we have very little to offer you. BigFree CC: Togas, Aidun, Arnelos quote: Greetings to Togas, BigFree, Arnelos and the many fine people of Spain, We of Vox Controli now live in a harsh land. The rock known as Voxtavia is an unforgiving land mass and only our beaches and great fishing industry have sustained us. But the people of Voxtavia are hardy. We survive and now thrive. We have been working on a project that might interest the people of Spain. By necessity, much of our population consists of fishermen and mountain men, but a new generation of us have begun to study the few books we were able to bring with us. The desire for wider distribution of these books is leading us to develop a process of printing on a special press. No longer will our few scribes be forced to work day and night to produce our books. Perhaps in a few more years, once we have perfected the process we would be able to share our printing press techniques with the people of Spainin exchange for knowledge we do not possess. Best regards to Roleplay Rhothaerill on behalf of Vox Controli P.S. in simple terms, we will have printing press in several more turns and would be willing to trade it with you then for tech. If you would like to make an offer I will discuss it with the rest of my team. Thanks.

	17-12-2003 17:08									#513
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From Darekill:

quote: Hi Arnelos, this is jst a quick personal information from me. I think you will hear nothing from me as ambassador to spain. At least not in the next few days. My people thinks that all is said and I think that too. So, I'll meet you on the battlefield. Never mind. Darekill

So much for that idea.

	17-12-2003 19:44									#514
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So, things are clear now

	17-12-2003 23:28									#515
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quote: Saving Private El Nino Togas, GoW had offered us a cease-fire while we withdraw, and we have asked them if that can be made official. If so, we can screen your workers at Barc-9 from GoW, allowing them to jump in your nearby galley and row to safety . We expect to have all troops off in 420AD (two turns after this one). That turn we also get Gunpowder. At this point in the game the remaining Great Powers may decide whether it'll be Lego & GoW v ND, or GoW & ND vs Lego. We understand that you guys want to hold out in Pamp for as long as possible, but many at GS fear that unless Lego is weakened very soon, it'll be too late and they'll win. This is why there is a feeling within GS that heavy losses for GoW/ND at Pamplona - hugely gratifying though they'd be, could leave Lego in too dominant a position. Given that the cities south of Pamp can not now be defended, would RP be interested in a tech deal with ND for these cities, or should we raise them? GS and RP probably agree that ND is the power to cut a deal with - if one is to be made. Barcelona and Sirocco are both bug-free. It's NM & Toledo that crash some people's PCs. On mine, I can open the buggy cities but the line of faces is missing. Waving the cursor on them says they're Chinese - hmm. Regards, Cort cc Arnelos, Aidun

	17-12-2003 23:33									#516
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quote: Cort, If you can work something out with ND, feel free to try. ND offered to allow us to surrender our cities to them, without bloodshed, and that they won't rename them. We thought that was a pretty lame offer. We asked them to give us something in exchange for handing over the cities and Darekill replied with: quote: My people thinks that all is said and I think that too. So, I'll meet you on the battlefield. Never mind. Darekill Yay... Please go through with the ceasefire and give us some time to decide what to do with Barcelona and the other cities. I'm leaning towards destroying them, myself. Perhaps ND ought to be told that. --Togas p.s. Thanks for saving those workers for us

	18-12-2003 00:18									#517
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quote: Togas, GoW have confirmed the cease-fire bteween GS and GoW so our knights will block Barc-8 and Barc-87 to stop GoW reaching your workers. They can jump in the boat on your turn. We can give you New Madrid this turn if you like - I'm playing the turn in the next few hours so let me know if you want it. We need to keep Barca for now or GoW can take it. Under the cease fire with GS they'll have to leave it for a while. I still think you guys could cut a deal which sees you survive in Spain. If, as I suspect, GoW and ND are thinking about hitting Lego, they don't want to spend the shields on Pamplona. Regards, Cort

	18-12-2003 01:12									#518
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We want all of our cities back! What took so long to give them back in the first place?

	18-12-2003 16:20									#519
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Don't be offended, they keep them for the safety of our cities and to finish some pikemen that only needed 2 more turns. Giving them back immediately would wast valuable shields, something you would never wish to happen in these times when we need every shield so much.

Aidun

	19-12-2003 02:29									#520
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Yes, but those units they are building are NOT going to be protecting our cities....they are completely withdrawing!

	23-12-2003 06:56									#521
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quote: Due to in game events I am sending peace accepted this turn. I look forward to the reestablishment of trade between our two nations, now that this unfortunate event is behind us. I also wish you luck in you new homeland. I am sure with your talents much will be accomplished. I will also make a public announcement(once I hear a confrimation from you) of the end of the Great Bobian War. Aggie

	23-12-2003 09:41									#522
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Screw them!!!! WE will stay at war forever!

	23-12-2003 23:49									#523
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Ay man, that is so lame! The cheesy raviollis want trades! SchreiB!
Iīm going to give them trade!!! *swings sword in the air* AH you GroBe peanut heads! Werenīt you a sea and half away, Id show ya!

	24-12-2003 04:26									#524
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We won't stay at war forever.
Close friends we'll be,
Of our former enemies.
But in hearts dearly hurt by war,
Vengeance is burried deeply.
And like a killer in the dark
We'll fulfil that vengeance
When our enemy is at his weakest
And doesn't expect
His sudden death.

Aidun

	24-12-2003 07:50									#525
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quote: Cort, 27 units will be needed for our northern seawall. We currently have: 2 pikemen 4 workers (2 workers on the Pinta) The Pinta We'd like to road and mine the tile that's 8 of "The Voice" You have a pike and worker there. Please move them for us. We will be renaming the northern cities soon. Discussion has started on it. In 6 turns the barracks will be complete in Voice and Town. Shortly after that, barracks will be done in Hideout. We will then begin mass producing pikes. Temples are finished. Once the seawall is done, we could build markets and libraries ... unless you'd prefer that we start on those now and you guys handle the seawall. Banking will be done in 30 turns (we're doing the 40 turn method) We'd also be very happy to accept Witlich and Beta-by-the-Sea. --Togas

	25-12-2003 01:14									#526
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quote: Togas, Thanks for the message, it's been posted in our forum. Had you considered using cats instead of Pikes for the wall? They don't need barracks, they're faster to produce, can ping ships, and eventually upgrade to the delicious arty. Maybe a vet Pike in each city for show is all that's needed for now. If you're at 10/40 on Banking, you'll have some cash to rush some of the units, and we have time to decide on future builds. I think we rushed a couple of cats in Beta and Wittlich last turn, to clear the way for handing them over. You and GoW will be able to grin at each other over the channel! A rough estimate of potential - 5 cities with about 16 commerce each is 80 gpt, minus about 35 for unit and building upkeep leaves 45 gpt before lib/mkt multipliers. When we're fully at peace with everyone, hopefully in about 3 turns, GS might have a better idea where the others are standing in tech. and then make a research plan on that basis. I think our worker is roading that tile you mentioned - we'll be off when he's done (as long as no enemy ships are around) and let you mine it Regards, Cort

	29-12-2003 12:47									#527
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quote: Vox Controli Tech Deal. Greetings to Togas, Arnelos, BigFree and the rest of the fine people of Roleplay. We apologize for not returning your email sooner regarding this deal as the holidays beckoned. Regarding our offer of Printing Press for tech, banking at 30 turns is indeed too far away for us. However we would be happy to work out a trade to send Printing Press to you for either gold or future tech concessions. We at Vox would be interested in what you would be able to offer and perhaps we can strike a deal from that. We look forward to hearing from you. Regards, Rhoth

quote: Rhoth, We may be able to buy the tech from you. As you know, we don't have much money, but we will try to work with you. Do you have a proposed price for Printing Press? --Togas

	31-12-2003 23:35									#528
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I was talking to BF today on Civ3rp Migros (it is still there, chaps, you can join it when you want ) and I tought of something:
Why should we give peace to GoW for free? We are teh ones who control their war weariness, we have no reason to accept peace, we should demand something in exchange for a declaration of peace! We should ask for a city in bob, or tech, or reparations, or we should launch a permanent war against them, they just canīt invade us, so nothing to fear. we have some WW taking place, so it surely is diverting LOTS of money on their side.
We shouldnīt send the spannish guerilleros back ot work for the dreaded chinamen and for the infidels unless we gain something.
And a city back in spainwould be good because of 2 things:
1) our main objective is to get as much land on spain as we can get
2) in case of a future reconquista we could gift all our cities to GS, let them invade our capital and boom! autotransport of all our units to Port Reconquista!

So all weīre saying is give war a chance
please consider it Togas and rulers of spain,
yours truly,
Nucleari Winterius, the IV

	01-01-2004 06:39									#529
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This is something for a discussionthread. but a for starting the distcussion. I personmally think that it wouldn't be bad to try to get something from GoW, but that counts for ND too.

It would but be good for our own development, or so I think, to establish peace on the short term. They may have war weariness, we must have it too and ww is hindering us more than them because we are smaller than they are.

Aidun

	01-01-2004 10:34									#530
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The larger your cities are, the more WW hits you. Plus, we were not the agressor; WW is worse for them than it is for us. We need to let this play out. GoW adn ND might be willing to pay a heavy fee for peace at this point or in 10 turns or so.

	01-01-2004 23:18									#531
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My opinion is that we just stall for time. Master Zen contacted me in chat to ask what our team would be willing to do concerning peace and I told him that Togas had started a thread to discuss it. I'm basically just intent to stall for time right now.

I'm convinced that we'll eventually be going back to war with Glory of War and/or Neu Demogyptica, perhaps even in the near future. Given this, there is little incentive for us to END the war that we will thus have to rebegin ourselves and give them a happiness boost in the process.

It might be somewhat risky, but we could lay this out for them. That we anticipate a fragmentation in the current alliance framework and we anticipate that we will likely end up participating in service to at least one of the participants, perhaps Glory of War, perhaps not. Given this, we have little incentive to end the official status of war NOW so that when we have to inevitably redeclare (perhaps even very very soon), we will grant a happiness bonus to the enemy of our employer(s).

If Glory of War wishes, they can make us a suitable offer in regards to such a coming conflict involving the hiring of our service. Since we would then be aligned with Glory of War, we would of course end our state of war with them and keep it with whatever enemies such a new alliance might possess. Glory of War must understand, of course, that others may solicit what service we may be capable to provide instead and that they may wish whatever aid we can provide against Glory of War. If so, we would maintain our state of war against Glory of War.

On the contrary, if it becomes clear that the world will indeed be in a lasting state of peace for many ages to come and a new peaceful order seems fully stable, then we would end our state of war with all parties we are at war with, as we would agree that keeping such states of war would be unfair to the conduct of the game during a lasting international peace. Since we are highly skeptical that this will be the outcome in the near future, we aren't doing that yet.

Now, that's the line I'd feed Glory of War. It's also our true policy, as far as I'm concerned. I would like to state for inside-the-team benefit (only for now ) that I would prefer that we end up with Glory of War our enemy rather than our friend, but ultimately I'd like to help Gathering Storm win the game and we'll establish whatever enemies and allies that may be necessary to achieve that goal.

I'd also like to discuss this matter with Gathering Storm.

	01-01-2004 23:19									#532
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Oh, and if it's ok with Togas (and a balance of the team), I'll go ahead and lay out the line above to Master Zen so he can stop pestering me about peace.

	02-01-2004 01:54									#533
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Sounds good to me.

	02-01-2004 02:45									#534
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First - Yes, I still lurk here.

Shame on those who wish to abuse our enemies with War Weariness!

In my humble opinion:
-It is unfair to use WW to hurt our enemies when we are effectively no longer at war.
-It is also unfair to use this knowledge as leverage in negotiations
-Our own people surely desire a conclusion to this struggle and peace after centuries of war
-Generations have passed since the initial personalities started the war - time enough to settle old insults and injuries
-We've left the warzone - why not the war?

This situation is similar to the ISDG - where our stance is notably different.

	02-01-2004 03:00									#535
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How is it the same dejon? ND and GoW can reach us quite easily. We can reach them. Hostilities are not over.

	02-01-2004 03:50									#536
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I'm fine with the explaination that Arnelos laid out but I do agree with Dejon.

We have no real ability or intention of invading either GoW or ND in the near future, we only intend to hurt their economies through a silly game mechanic.

--Togas

	02-01-2004 05:55									#537
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Dejon,

In my opinion, we are obligated to either participate in a coming conflict on Bob involving GoW and/or ND (which I believe IS coming) and thus justifies us keeping war active in the short interim or we end the states of war, recognizing the beginning of a lasting peace.

I agree with you that should a lasting peace be what is in the future, we are obligated to go to peace. I would not feel comfortable continuing our state of official war simply out of spite to harm them with war weariness. I agree that this would be identical to the stance Lucky, et al in the ISDG.

My point is relatively simple... what if we're going to end up in an alliance fighting at least one of these parties in the immediate future (or at least our ally will be)? If so, we can make peace with whatever party or parties we are NOT fighting (even if not aligned to), but I see no reason to end our war and then immediately restart it with a party we're going to be aligned against anyhow in the immediate future.

	02-01-2004 07:42									#538
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I understand the reasoning, I'm just not comfortable with it.

I do not believe that a possible, future war and an obligation that we would be ill equipped to live up to in any meaningful way entitles us to abuse our knowledge of a game mechanic.

Look at it this way - would a real nation maintain a status of war with another nation (who still poses a threat), just to demoralize that nation's people? Especially considering that their own people would continue to suffer as well.

	02-01-2004 07:56									#539
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Yes, they would, look at Korea. Look at India.

	02-01-2004 17:44									#540
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You go ahead and do whatever you want, as always is the case, but I find total foolishness to try to play it "fair" with a nation who hasnīt played fair with us. They are despaired for peace, WW must be hitting them unconscious!!! We musnīt stop this!
And for the fact, it is like we are not letting our partisans in spain stop resisting to their aggression , since we did not formally accept peace.
As for GS, we have to thank them a lot for their help, but we shouldnīt agree if they suddenly said we should start gifting techs or gold to them.Not until this war is settled properly, wich it is not.