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dejon
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As I said, I understand the reasoning. If most people think we should remain at war, and Togas agrees, then go for it.
I stated my opinion on the matter. No amount of rewording and passionate arguing is going to change my stance.
I feel that the community of MPDG players has to play with integrity and honour. Any game like Civ3 will always have exploitable flaws, as well as loopholes (that are not really flaws) that human players can take advantage of.
By the way, the C3CDG at MZO has made a good start in documenting and categorizing such things, in case anyone is interested.
Haven't we already abused the game mechanics (unit teleporting) enough?
I prefer to take the high road, even if it means disadvantage or death to us in this game.
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CiverDan
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On the whole WW thing, I feel that staying at war solely for WW purposely is abusing the game mechanics, when neither party has any real means on attacking the other. In our case, there is no phyical way for a landing to occur near us, as us/GS have all coastal tiles defended. Also, we have no real capability to launch an attack on Bob either for the time being. As such, i think peace for the time being word be in our best interest as it would prevent anyone from "crying foul".
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Aidun
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The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:25
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Honour, fairness. Those are nice words with worthy meanings.
The lurkers among us who now turn up at the end of the war (and there is no sarcasm in this) have missed a history that we have seen happening before our own eyes and with which we have been involved for months.
I fully agree with Dejon, he is right on this point.
It is but cotroversial if this game is still a fair game and one of honour. Many times it was stated by GoW that they hated us and wanted us out of the game. Vondrack, dictator of Legoland, has a personal feud with Togas and maybe more of us (perhaps he still hates me too).
There have been discussions about other abuses of game mechanics by the parties in the war.
And last but not least, the ancient promise of Legoland to favor us, has still not been fulfilled, though we too have a part in this.
You convinced me about the technical aspect of warweariness.
Now I feel more for what Nuclear Winter is saying. When the moment comes when we can convince ourselves that this game is really one of honour and fairness and not one of hatred, abuse, and empty promises, we should play with hounour and fairness, and until then, we shouldn't be naively playing fair, like the fairest boy of the class, but be pragmatic: get what you can, by whatever way.
Aidun
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Nuclear Winter
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I tell ya, when vondrack instead of helping the favoured nation that we were supposed to be instead sent troops to N Bob to protect GoW he was doing the worst backstab ever. I cannot agree to playing "fair" to those chaps.
Will excessive diplomacy once more be the undoing of our team?
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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From Cort Haus of GS:
quote:
Greetings, friends at RP.
When you open the save you shoud find Astronomy in there - with the warmest compliments of GS. We can tell you that GoW and ND do not have these yet, so please observe NDA conditions, though Lego and Vox do have Astronomy.
We have studied our economy and concluded that despite your 15 turns or so of 1 scientist research of the tech, it is best for us to research Banking immediately, which we are doing at a four-turn pace. We calculate the banks we build will boost our research to win back these four turns by the end of the era.
We are running a defecit however, so we must ask you to help us with gpt. It's good value, we're sure you agree  If we do the research, while you contibute GPT, we can both be in the industrial era in no time. GS commercial output will surge over the next 10-15 turns as the program of post-war economic builds starts to bear fruit.
So apart from the cats for your sea-wall, which we are pleased to see rolling out from your cities, we would suggest that you build markets, aquas and harbours to boost pop and pump out the gold. You'll want to keep yourselves some gpt for rushing some builds, so offer us what you can. We're running a 20gpt defecit at the moment, so getting that covered would help.
Perhaps Navigation or Democracy at 40-turn could be considered - or maybe the scientist would even be better working mines and fields. This would be something to discuss and consider.
Meanwhile, your galley can return home safely via the sea now, and we will shield it as it gets close to your port. We can also use galleys to screen the coastline from GoW ships, allowing you to take up the north and westerrn positions on the sea wall when the time comes.
Regards,
Cort Haus.
on behalf of your good friends Gathering Storm.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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I just sent this back to Cort Haus:
quote:
Cort Haus,
Received your letter and I've posted it to the RP internal forum. We'll certainly look at ways that we can expand our commerical output and I think the team would be quite welcome to providing what GPT income we can to support your research effort and reach the Industrial Age at increased speed. Afterall, the primary reason for having Roleplay Team control these northern cities is that we can build them up more efficiently then GS might on your own and then supply the fruits of that labor for the alliance to use for joint benefit.
In other issues, the team is currently discussing the issue of making peace with Glory of War (who has asked for it) and New Demogyptica (which, as of yet, has not). It had been my opinion that we needed to have a discussion with Gathering Storm about the prospects for the immediate future and whether we would be fighting either of them within the next 20 or so turns, the ONLY case under which I felt it would be ok for us to maintain a state of war (it should be noted that there are a few on the team who want to maintain war regardless, however).
It has been pointed out to me by BigFree, however, that apparently your team believes the best course of action is for us to immediately sign peace treaties with both GoW and ND because you believe this may help precipitate the inevitable GoW-ND or GoW-Lego conflict at an earlier date. I agree that bringing about the inevitable fracturing of their alliance must be the primary aim of GS/RP foreign policy and your apparent belief that quick peace treaties may help to precipitate this does make some sense.
So even if it were to lead to resumed hostilities within a relatively short timespan (thus perhaps giving our chosen opponent a happiness BONUS rather than continued deficit when we redeclare on them), it may be a worthwhile strategy given that we need to fracture their alliance first. Regardless, the balance of the team still seems committed to the idea that we'd like to get some sort of lasting settlement with GoW out of these negotiations which might involve something from GoW to us in return for us agreeing to such a settlement.
I'm ready to agree to pursue that with GoW, but obviously RP Team needs to consult with Gathering Storm on the issue, given that if GoW wants anything binding into the future, that could be problematic if the future plans of the alliance lead elsewhere, nevermind that our treaty with Gathering Storm obligates us to consult you on such negotiations.
So I would very much like RP and GS to meet in chat in the near future to discuss the issues surrounding the alliance's plans for the immediate future and thus how some particulars that may come up in RP peace negotiations with GoW and ND should proceed as a result.
I honestly don't know Togas' schedule or that of anyone else, so I can't speak for them on that count. As for me, I'm likely going to be out of town from this Thursday evening through Sunday. I'll be around both before then and after then if we can chat at those times. If you want to chat this weekend, my recommendation is that you make sure you get at least one of Togas, BigFree, or Aidun in chat with you (preferably more than one along with anyone else who happens to be around).
Following that, we need to progress with any GoW negotiations and get this matter settled and behind us, as I think we agree.
It's good to hear from you guys.
- Arnelos
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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And a new information/disinformation campaign is hatched. Not a terribly complicated one, but a itty bitty one none the less.
I can't give all the details here, but suffice it to be said that some members of ND (though I have no idea as to their activity levels) may notice from another chatlog that Unortho and I may have been discussing something about "other" things, perhaps the PTWDG, and may come to their own conclusions regarding what that would be about. They'd probably come to the rather obvious conclusion that we're discussion peace, but then the question might be raised why we're not having a similar discussion with ND.
I really doubt ND will pick up on this given my experience with them thusfar, but it's always possible. If nothing else, because this is relatively harmless, I'd like to see if they're paying any attention. This isn't a terrible way to try to find out.
Regardless of that, we need to contact ND soon to begin peace negotiations with them as well. Should we wait until peace with GoW is finalized and ND starts wondering when they get peace, too, or should we just go ahead and approach ND (since we know they aren't going to approach us for a while...)?
Need to discuss that.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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from Cort Haus,quote:
1. Many thanks for the gpt - we'll have Banking in 3 turns.
2. Santa Barbara : one of our team has raised the remote but theoritical spectre of Santa Barabara flipping to GoW - despite Port Isolation's level 1 border. He reckons the odds are 1/2000 per turn, and the risk could be eliminated by keeping 2 defenders in there. I'm no authority on flipping, but 60 shields sounds an expensive insurance policy to me (nearly 2/3 of a marketplace and over 1/8 of Magellan) for a tiny risk. However, if you have 2 pikes already, we can cover the wall. (see point 3) Discussions on this continue on our forum - what do you guys think?
3. Sea wall and unit maintainence costs : our wall is complete and we have a few units spare. The original idea was that you could make your own wall out of cats, but as we don't need those GS units up there ourselves yet, and see no likely use for them for the forseeable future with the tech push for ToE our current target, how do you feel about switching to marketplaces then banks, and leaving our units on the wall, to save your unit costs and increase, rather than decrease, your commercial output?
4. Magellans : Attention in GS is turning to the eventual threat of Marines, following a post by H_E on the strat forum demonstrating how, in a PBEM, Tiberius opened the save to find his civ had gone doughnut following a marine assault on one city and the same-turn unleashing of cavalry on an undefended core. An analsis posted on our forum shows how GS could awake to find its entire civ destroyed in a single turn if we fail to defend effectively against Marines. We feel that denying Magellans to all opponents by either GS or RP building it would be an important part of our mutual defence. We could build it in Bolderberg in around 40 turns - which would time well with your research into Navigation. If you were then to build the Oracle we could loan you BB for a turn to trigger your GA. The feeling is that sacrificing a warrior for a GA would not be accepted by all teams, but it would also allow Lego to follow suit and time their GA to perfection.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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My response to Cort Haus:
quote:
quote:
On the second point - in addition to wishing to do what we can for our allies, we'd seek some share of the GA profits - were it to be economically viable. We would face loss of commerce during the one or two turn transition. It might only be worth it if your cities are all high in pop.
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No problems there. The whole point would be to help you guys make a little more money on behalf of the alliance.
quote:
Initially, we were thinking of offering a unit for your UU to kill, but it was felt that would not be acceptable to all teams, and Lego could use the same tactic to a greater effect with Vox triggering a Lego GA at the most favourable moment for Lego.
However, dicussion among GS of the "Magellans-lend once RP built the Oracle" idea has raised the possibility of city-swapping for GA purposes being seen as foul by other teams too. I think it is unique, though, and unlikely to be done often in games because of the volume of investment in wonder-size cities that would usually be lost in a city swap.
What do you guys think?
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I think other civilizations are likely to complain about it regardless.
Have we considered that because until Amphibious Warfare, there's ZERO chance that anyone can invade us that we could do the following? ...
We land a force somewhere on Bob before the advent of RR. As long as GoW/ND can't kill the stack upon its landing and we can use at least one conquistadore to run 9 tiles across Bob and whack an ND or GoW unit (perhaps use multiple conquistadores to ensure eventual success), we get our Golden Age. Hell, because conquistadores are so friggin' FAST, we could literally just land a stack of a few of them on the southern edge of Bob and race them 9 tiles to a suitable location where we could find any vulnerable ND or GoW unit and whack it. Instant GA!
Then, because GoW/ND have no ability to invade Stormia, we just say that we'll sign peace whenever they're ready for it. They'll probably wait 5 turns just so they can keep the happiness bonus, but there's little reason for them to remain at war... afterall, WW is going to hurt them a lot more than us in the long run.
That's as fair as it's going to get for starting RP's GA, I'd think.
That said, I'm not opposed to building the Oracle and swapping Magellan's at all. If we're actually going to sink the shields into the Oracle, that should be good enough to satisfy people (it probably won't for some of them, but it should be).
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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My response:
quote:
Well, to avoid setting the precedent for Lego, you just ensure that the use of our conquistadores is in a valid war conflict. Conquistadores may not have much survivability, but they can travel 9 tiles across enemy terrain, regardless of that terrain. If they find a weak unit anywhere along their route, they whack it and start our GA.
Obviously, that means we'd have to get lucky to find such a unit, but that could be done.
The real value of conquistadores, however, is that the enemy will have a tendency to underestimate just how far they can penetrate behind their lines. So if they move a bulk of their forces to counter a GS landing somewhere and they think they see all of the forces, we could hide some conquistadores a stack back and penetrate 8 tiles into enemy territory to tear up key tiles of road/RR or even raze cities in the area.
Once we're inside their empire, any surviving conquistadores just keep moving 9 tiles each turn to find new spots to pillage or new underdefended REX towns to raze. Especially if a number of conquistadores are landed (and they're relatively cheap), we could wreak havoc and force a good portion of their military go running around chasing us down while your military marches forward far more slowly (but with far less resistance).
It's an idea, at least...
The other use would be to have conquistadores move 5 tiles forward and 4 tiles back each turn (meeting 1-move units moving forward), giving us a much better ability to scout enemy formations and territory ahead of our stacks. The only liability, of course, is that we can't stack Spanish conquistadores with GS SoD's.
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02-01-2004 18:18
Heck, it's Spain they all want back, not so much GoW's land.
I lost 300 shields of units 
in a flip to Japan - details on the UU forum later 
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