15-02-2003 13:40									#61
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it would seem so. Although it is possible to have a score like that if they got that second city real, real early.

	16-02-2003 01:39									#62
	Got spare money?

Have got the save and playing it.

	16-02-2003 03:33									#63
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1700bc turn played.

Both cities produced temples. Both The Voice and Miller Town will expand in four turns.

The Voice is on track now to produce a settler in 5 turns, and grow to pop size four in 5 turns.

Miller Town is somewhat more complex. The settler would have been produced in 8 turns, but pop growth to size 4 only in 9 turns.

So, what I did is move the production to spearman, and moved a citizen working a 2f1s tile to the 1f2s forest tile. This bumps shield production to 5 per turn for this turn, and gets a spearman produced in 4 turns. However, the city does not grow for another 18 turns. But next turn, the new mine is completed on the grassland square, so we can move the citizens around again to get the previous +2 food production, and still get 5 shields per turn. This will get us to size 4 in 9 turns, and 1 turn past size 4 when the settler is produced, and we will have another spearman.

OR- we can produce a settler in 6 turns with the modified production, and have the city fall back to pop size one, growing to 2 in 3 turns. Shield production will fall, so it will then take us a bit longer to produce the spearman. Comments?

The plus side of these scenarios for both cities is that they will be at size two after producing settlers - and can pump out two more settlers not long afterwards.

Dissidentville - the worker is now mining the wheat square. However, I moved the citizens around to the mountains, with the city producing 3 shields, and we still lost two to corruption. So having the wheat mined will not do much now. Connecting the city to the capitol will help. So - we can produce a worker next turn - and bump the city down to size 1 with growth to two in a few turns. A settler will take another 22 turns. (30 shields less the 8 produced already). The city is growing at 7 per turn, but will slow with the next pop growth as there are only jungle or mountain tiles to work with next. We would need to get it to pop 4, then do a pop rush on the settler back to size 1. That will likely take some 16 turns or so. Any suggetions? The extra worker would be helpful in taking down some of the jungle to get this city productive - or do we even try. Maybe we should put it to the settler production and concentrate our efforts further north.

GS offered up writing. But they did NOT accept the deal first at their end. Don't think they still trust us. I remembered to put up myst and wc. So we should get writing next turn.

GoW sent a note saying they would be two turns to math - but left mysticism on the table. I went out on a limb here and accepted the deal - contact with Neu D for contact with GS, Myst, and 15 gold. With math to come to us in two turns. Time will tell. Ghengis is eager to trash others in the public threads, so if he reneges on the deal, we will do the same. I suspect he won't.

And given the contact with Neu D., lo and behold, they do not have Mysticism. So I offered it to them, unaccepted, and will write a letter seeing what we can get in return. I would go for minimal cash and future trade credits at this point. Before GoW or one of the others trades it to them. In retrospect, I should've just gifted it to them as a sign of friendship - and haggled for something in return after the fact. Oh well.

That's it. The FA thread has the letters. Or will have shortly.

Last edited by Beta on 16-02-2003 at 09:08

	16-02-2003 13:16									#64
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well they didn't need to accept their turn. because once we put something up their accept automatically goes away. So they knew we were going to put something up, so it did them no good to accept.

although it is possible they just don't trust us

	16-02-2003 19:18									#65
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See my note in the FA thread regarding the GS deal and how I screwed up.

	16-02-2003 19:38									#66
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Hi - Diss. Looks like it is just you and me. I am off for a few hours - so if the save shows up - it is with GoW now - two teams away- we need to start philosophy - crank it to the max if you can - or whatever seems reasonable. GS says they will be finished code of laws in 10 turns.

And for Miller town - we need to re-arrange the citizens such that we are back to a plus 2 food situation, but still producing 5 shields. I think that means moving the forest and lake citizens to the two mined road squares. The southern one should be finished this turn.

For the worker - time to connect the luxury? May as well get it over with. And then maybe the irrigation project.

And I didn't get much feedback from anyone regarding a worker or a settler out of Dissidentville. I think you should go for the worker. The city will still grow to size two shortly. And the worker can start taking down some jungle to see if we can make something of this place.

Oh and please offer Mysticim to Neu D and ACCEPT. I am trying to get them to take it for minimal return but future considerations.

Cheers!

	16-02-2003 22:52									#67
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are we agreed on philosphy? We are verified that GS is working on code of laws?

Just want to make sure before we research it.

	16-02-2003 22:53									#68
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OK I' probably won't get the turn before I go to work.

Worker sounds fine for Dissidentille. But if we can get a settler soon, I would like to. We are behind on city building.

	17-02-2003 00:46									#69
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound 1700bc turn played. Both cities produced temples. Both The Voice and Miller Town will expand in four turns. The Voice is on track now to produce a settler in 5 turns, and grow to pop size four in 5 turns. Miller Town is somewhat more complex. The settler would have been produced in 8 turns, but pop growth to size 4 only in 9 turns.

sounds good to me

in the stage of the game we are in now

it is far better to have one more settler earlier, and waste a turn, than to have the settler later, and not waste production

we have enough workers, we have enough troops of every type but immortals and galleys

we need settlers, and we need them bad

so I vote no against anthig which will slow our settler growth

Jon Miller

	17-02-2003 01:17									#70
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I hear the sentiment in favor of settler production. Will comply.

I'm just not sure about Dissdentville. I will take a look at it again and map out the pop growth and shield production. Earliest is 22 turns, unless we can get 4 shields and hope the corruption is only 50%. Also - corruption will go up as new cities come on line between it and The Voice.

	17-02-2003 05:35									#71
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1675bc turn played.

The Voice culturally expands in 3, produces settler in 4.

Miller Town culturally expands in 3, produces settler in 5.

Dissidentville - well - not pretty. Settler in 21 turns. Pop growth in 5, but then we only have jungle (1 food) or mountain (1 shield) tiles to work with. And all additional shield production (at least up to 3 in total) is being lost to corruption. This may moderate when Elipolis goes in and it gets connected to the capitol. So - I opted for the worker - out next turn. We need to pare back some of the jungle to make this place work. I suspect if we do it right - we can still have a settler out in 21 turns from now, plus the worker out next turn, plus some jungle cut down and mines built.

Research at 100%. Losing 3gpt. (treasury is at 107). Philosophy in 14 turns. GS will not be happy. They are researching code of laws in 10, or so they say. eek. Our research rate will no doubt pick up when the new cities go in, so we may be closer to 10 when we are finished. I will let them know.

Received 8 gold from GS as their share of the myst/math deal with GoW. If you recall, it costs us 15. Their share was half of that.

And I sent Mysticism to Neu D with nothing in return. It was going to be a nothing deal anyway - and this may gain future favors. Or - I have been had and they just scammed me for mysticism. However, given the emotions over on the continent, I get a sense that everyone is now trying to keep a squeaky clean reputation. We will see.

So, in conclusion, we need to agree on the 5th city site!!!! I think it is time for a poll. And as Diss pointed out earlier - a better discussion map. Will see what I can do.

	17-02-2003 13:05									#72
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just glad you remembered to up the research rate

We'll wait and see what our research rate will be.

	17-02-2003 19:34									#73
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Oh - and one thing I forgot to mention - I considered hooking up the luxury, but with both cities falling back to size 2 shortly - I thought he should start on the irrigation project to get water down to the Elipolois site. I started him on the road tiles, as that saves movement turns for the worker.

How many citizens can we have before disorder - it is 4 isn't it??

Also - my recommendation for the worker being produced in Dissidentville is to clear out the jungle to the north - on the tile between the wheat and fish tiles.

	17-02-2003 23:06									#74
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It's interesting all my games seem to be on chieftan except one. I'm not sure how he got the difficulty level up. My cities were hitting disorder at size 3. So I'm not sure what level that is.

I think we can actually go to size 5, but I'm not completely sure.

	18-02-2003 04:40									#75
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5 would be good. We can wait even longer before hooking it up.

	18-02-2003 08:37									#76
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Hi - Diss - it is time for me to crash here. The game has been with RP for the last 4 hours or so. Over to you.

Have a good evening. Cheers!

	18-02-2003 13:27									#77
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I take it you haven't played the turn then. I'll play it tonight

	18-02-2003 13:41									#78
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nothing much. Somebody offered us Mathematics. I forgot who it was . I really wish it would show the name of the leader during diplomacy. I have that problem in another game. I don't know who I'm dealing with. All I have to go by is the pictures.

Anyways I'm not sure what we wanted to start on in the new worker. I figured I'd start improving the tile around my city . Anyways there is so much jungle, I wasn't sure where to start. But we have to start somewhere.

So we now have mathematics. I fortified the one warrior. He isn't doing anything useful right now.

Dissidentville is producing settler. But that can be changed as the need arises.

As for new cities obviously chokepoint is first. And the next city should be close to the iron if you ask me. We should connect it soon. I propose that the worker who is now doing something on the wheat square (I'm not sure what he's doing ) move back north when he is free and start roading to the north iron source. Leaving a gap for the city to be placed in.

	18-02-2003 17:16									#79
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Also - my recommendation for the worker being produced in Dissidentville is to clear out the jungle to the north - on the tile between the wheat and fish tiles.

Diss - I suspect the mathematics was either glory of war - the guy with the fur hat (and this would be to conclude the previous deal) - or Neu D - the Arab guy. But yes - it is hard to tell.

The old worker is building a mine - as mentioned above. You can also tell by clicking on him - it the tells you what he is doing and how long to completion. The only trick there is to remember to hit the Carry On button, as opposed to the There is Something More Important For Him To Do button. Otherwise he stops what he is doing and you lose all the progress to-date.

I will do up a better city site plan later today for discussion.

	19-02-2003 05:15									#80
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I checked the save - it was GoW. You will note that it says Warmonger offers - which I forgot was their name - until you look up at the scoring summary and they have it posted there.

We also have agreed to send math thru to GS. Not sure if you did that or not, Diss.

	19-02-2003 05:22									#81
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oh yeah it does show warmonger offers. It only does that if something is on the table though.

In another game I have, the trade window was buggy for like 20 turn or so. It kept coming up with nothing on the table. I wasn't sure if someone was purposely putting it up there or what. But that problem has gone away thankfully.

	20-02-2003 04:12									#82
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OK. I am bringing the irrigation down to future Eliopolis with the northern worker. I have moved the middle worker to a spot to bring a road to the Iron source. The warrior accompanyed him in case of barbarian attack. I will have to check the city placement map/screenshot to see where the city is going to go. No need to road that square. The southerne worker is now clearing jungle. that will take 12 turns.

Also when we get our northern worker free I would like to mine that shielded grassland north of the Voice. I did not do it before because I wanted to road and mine the cows asap- as that square was being used often. But when the voice is size 3 we will utilize the shielded grassland. Might as well get an extra shield out of it. So whenver we get a chance we can do that along with connecting the luxery resource.

	20-02-2003 18:42									#83
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I just checked the savegame Diss sent to everyone. Why a GS warrior is fortified in the middle of our land?

	21-02-2003 01:38									#84
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I guess that is a lookout we agreed to way back when. I think they will move it when we fill in the spaces. Although I would prefer they move it now . We haven't really discussed it with them. I'm not too concerned with one warrior. But we will be putting two cities in the area soon. Although it will be north of where that warrior is.

	21-02-2003 07:39									#85
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Playing the turn now.

	21-02-2003 08:42									#86
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you know we really should have built granaries . After reading the intersite DG analysis of researching pottery first . Oh well. It still might benefit us to build a granary in the city that is building settlers. I think the voice and millertown should have granaries.

	21-02-2003 09:05									#87
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Speaking of Granaries....I wonder if the other teams have started The Great Pyramid yet?.....Just food for thought.

	21-02-2003 09:08									#88
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I was just thinking the same thing. Miller Town could build one in eight turns with its current shield production (5pt).

OK - turn played. screen shots sent.

Cultural border expanded.

Settler is up in the capitol next turn, and Miller Town the turn after.

My calculations show we could produce another settler in 6 turns with the Voice, but will need to wait for seven for the pop growth.

Miller Town - will need to wait and see - necessary pop growth in 16 turns. See Diss' comment above regarding granaries.

Math sent to GS. I forgot they wanted communications with Lux. We can do that next turn. I know what we can do - I contact Lux - say we will provide contact with GS for most of their remaining treasury. If they survive - we will give it back - less say 10 gold. Sort of like Holland storing its gold here in Canada during WWII. Then again - Holland is still around. Lux may not be.

Anyways - Philosophy in 11 turns. You can play with the citizens (eg move a shield producing citizen from Miller Town to working the lake and hence more gold) and get it down to 10 turns, but this impacts settler production. So I left it as maximized for settler production.

The northern worker finishes his next irrigation tile next turn, and should move and do the next one I think. I agree with Diss that we should mine that enhanced grassland north of the city - but lets finish the irrigation.

We are also going to have to work the grassland square due east of Elipolis. It need a mine and a road, as it is the only 2 food tile for the city to work with. This should be a priority - AFTER the next irrigation tile. When Elipolis is in place - he can get ther in one turn - which wastes less time on movement of workers.

OR - we can use the southern worker - on the east coast - under the warrior - he is building a road for a new city site - still to be determined. Done in 4 turns.

The other worker will be clearing jungle for awhile. But this needs to be done if Dissidentville is going to amount to anything, and be able to use that +3 food production. We should consider getting some pop rushes out of it before we move to a republic. That is quicker than waiting on its shield production. Will be interesting to see what happens to the corruption level when Elipolis completes the road connection.

OK - so the next city? See the other thread, please.

	21-02-2003 09:10									#89
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WOW

I think the whole team is around tonight. Let's have a party!! Celebrate that we are not Lux!

	21-02-2003 09:17									#90
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millertown should probably build a granery for sure after building the settler. The voice will be size 2 after the settler, so I'm not sure about that one.