22-02-2003 06:49									#91
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save received - playing the turn.

I will sit on it for a bit - please see the city planning discussion. The settler in the Voice can be at Y this turn. The next settler out of the voice is in 7 turns - or do we go for C. Please let me know.

Last edited by Beta on 22-02-2003 at 06:55

	22-02-2003 09:28									#92
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1575bc turn played.

I may be shot for this. I moved the settler from the Voice to site Y to build there next turn. Here was my logic.

I mapped out the next 22 plus turns with the various city options.

With this option - Y gets built next turn, and will grow to size 3 by turn 22 and be able to produce a settler. There should be no corruption at this city. It should also boost our research rate considerably.

This settler or the one from Miller Town would both make it to Elipolis at the same time. The Voice is one full move from Miller Town. Elipolis gets built on turn 4 with the settler from Miller Town.

The next settler is produced by the Voice in 7 turns, 5 move turns to site c, and site C built on turn 13.

With the option of building site C first - it would get built on turn 6. Y would get built on turn 9 with the next settler from The Voice. However, C will not grow at all (all jungle and mountain tiles) and will have higher corruption.

This plan delays us getting iron by 7 turns, but gives us 9 extra turns of good production and growth from Y. I am convinced this is the better approach.

If GS was pushing us on the southern border, I would not hesitate to build there first - but I believe growth is the primary goal right now, and Y will work well.

It will also give us some time to debate the 2 vs 3 border town issue (ie c vs #4 and #5).

I am willing to be shot - but I do believe this to be the better move. We are somewhat committed now - as to backtrack the settler would be very wasteful. Hope you guys agree.

Other points - The Voice will produce a settler in 6 turns, but not grow until 7. I can't think of anything else to do with 5 shields of production. We could delay the settler by either 1 or 3 turns and pump out a warrior or spearman respectively, but this has been give a lower priority in the past. I am willing to eat the one turn of production. Any ideas?

Miller Town's settler is out next turn. Then we need to think about a granary.

The worker in the north moved down the road one and continued irrigation. That tile east of Elipolis and the one SE of city Y are the next high improvement priorities.

The southern road worker can maybe do Elipolis. He is finished the road in 4 turns. The jungle cutter has another 10 to go.

I offered contact with GS to Lux, but did not accept, and made my pitch about their gold reserves when I sent the save. Will see what they say. If it comes around unaccepted next turn, we should give the communications to GS and accept, as they have asked for such.

That's it.

BetaHound stands quietly blind-folded - waiting for the shots to come...

	22-02-2003 12:38									#93
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*shoots BetaHound*

Sounds fine. In fact I was wondering when we wanted to fill in the northern continent. . We might as well do it now. I'm assuming site Y is in the north if we can build next turn. Sounds fine with me.

What about the next settler? I vote Eliopolis on the chokepoint.

	22-02-2003 15:50									#94
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It's a shame we dont have horses. We could use them to build a Chariot and send it to do some exploring.

	22-02-2003 18:49									#95
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Hi Diss - thanks for your support. I was feeling uneasy about this becuase all we had really dicsussed was another southern city. Regarding Elipolis, both the new settlers would get there at the same time. The Voice's settler was out a turn earlier, but in that one turn, he would only make it as far as Miller Town. So yup, Elipolis gets built with Miller Town's settler. That was a constant in any of the scenarios I ran. The debate was really between a northern city and a southern one to get the other iron.

Eli- not sure where we would go exploring. We have reached an agreement with GS not to explore south. Now - once we get across to the next continent - that may be a different story. On the other hand, we will run into the same sensibilities there. That was one of the things that has prompted the current NeuD, GoW, Lux conflict.

	22-02-2003 21:45									#96
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we need to exchange maps with GS

Jon Miller

	22-02-2003 22:54									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller we need to exchange maps with GS

Y'know, why not?

	23-02-2003 00:26									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller we need to exchange maps with GS Jon Miller

Jon - pulllleasssssse - just a few more words. We need to exchange maps with GS because .......


...you were chatting with them.

.... they asked.

.... you think it is a good idea because.....

A bit of the background would help. Thanks.

I'm not opposed - just curious as to why now.

	23-02-2003 00:47									#99
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I, for one, would like to trade maps just to see how large our continent really is.

Jon, Did you find out any info from your chat?

	23-02-2003 05:37									#100
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Yes - that would be very useful. I suspect we are getting hosed in the territory sharing thing. That is not a criticism in any way of past decisions, just a matter of where we ended up.

	23-02-2003 08:23									#101
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I would like to know more about there half

and be sure that we are not getting totally screwed


Jon Mill.er

	23-02-2003 08:29									#102
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I would go along with that. And from Witt's post, I would say he agrees.

BTW - they are still asking me for contact with Lux. I am holding off until I get an answer from Lux regarding their gold reserves.

	24-02-2003 08:08									#103
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OK - 1550BC move played and sent.

We have done a good thing today. And we have new neighbours.

Diss played the turn before me and ran through all the steps. This was very helpful as we only had one turn to get it right. Thanks Diss.

-accepted the 150 gold from Lux, and provided Gs contact with them - a moot point now. BTW - our treasury is now some 250 gold.

- Miller Town produced a settler who moved down the road to the chokepoint. He will be there next turn. Miller Town is now building a granary, as discussed - 20 turns. will speed up with the next pop growth. (4 turns I think).

- produced a new city on the point to the west of Miller Town - site Y. I have called it Luxview for now. We can change this. I like BetaBurg or BetaCity. Or leave it as Luxview. Will grow in 10 turns. Put it on barracks for now - 20 turns. A cultural build would help to project its influence across the straight - but that is not that big a deal. We could also start working on a wonder.

- research stays the same - Philosophy in 9 turns at 100%.

- The voice builds a new settler in 5 turns, but will not grow to pop 3 until turn 6.

- moved spearman out of Dissidentville to wheat square.

- left worker clearing jungle to his task. 8turns I believe. This was agreed to with Trip. It will help them get the city going sooner - which is in everybody's best interests. Althogh we could use the worker elsewhere...

- renamed Dissidentville to Portia - so it will not be identifiable in the F11 key - or wherever the cities show up. Fairly neutral name - but not without meaning. Which was brought to Trip's attention.

-gave contact with Neu D to GS and Accepted.

- and last but not least - gifted Portia to lux and accepted.

I made sure Trip got the save OK, and that everything worked as planned, before I posted in the Game Save thread. We burned through a bit of time, but we had lots.

- and also wrote nbarclay of GS. See correspndence thread.

Cheers! Good night. I am exhausted. Who knew saving a refugee civilization would be this tiring.

Last edited by Beta on 24-02-2003 at 08:29

	24-02-2003 22:39									#104
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We could use some discussion and analysis of what we should build next with the three core cities, and soon-to-be Elipolis.

You will see in the post above what they are currently building. But that is based on minimal discussion here. I would suggest that as soon as Elipolis is built - two turns - a copy of the save go to everyone for review and tinkering with, to see what you think, and to further explore pros and cons.

One comment I will make is that there is merit to building cultural improvements (ie temples) in the new cities. I know a lot of folks see this as a waste of early effort - but culture is the only way a city's borders will expand, and in the case of Elipolis, get to use more than just the one immediately available 2 food tile. Also - there is forest just north of the chokepoint we could use to aid the project. I ackowledge that libraries would be cheaper. Still can't build them yet.

And we should not forget our earlier discussion on pop rushing - although IMHO, that will be restricted to The Voice, and only after settler production. And this will soon be a moot point when we change governments.

	24-02-2003 22:56									#105
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I have the turn. I'm not sure what we want to do with the northern worker. I really want to mine that shielded grassland. WE may as well connect the luxery while we are up there.

But we also need to chop down the forest. I was hesitant to chop down that forest with no city built yet. I know the city will be built when we are finished, but I didn't want to risk losing out on the shields. The only reason to chop down the forest is to get irrigation to the southern half of the continent.

	24-02-2003 23:06									#106
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I'll leave the turn for you Beta.

Here is what I propse. Move the warrior on the mountain to the mountain on the south of Portia. I don't trust that GS warrior . They may have just moved him there to make contact- even though they may not realize they already have it now.

I also suggest moving the spearman on the worker as more show of force.

I suggest moving the northern worker up towards the Voice to mine that shielded grassland and connect the luxery. He can also mine another grassland near Luxview, and may need to do one more.

I know we do want to chop down that forest, but like I said I want to make sure the city is in place and get credit. Because we want to get irrigtation down to the southern half of the continent eventually.

	25-02-2003 04:04									#107
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Hi Diss. Thanks. Played as suggested except for the northern worker. I moved him to start cutting down the forest. That will take 5 turns. The settler is now on the chokepoint and Elipolis gets built next turn. So we will still get the shield credit for the forest. We should think about Elipolis' first build. There is another forest there we can use later when we need it as well.

I have produced screenshots and will send out. Note the GS warrior on a new position on a mountain overlooking the new Lux city of Portia. I will confirm with GS that he is there as an observer. But I took Diss' advice regarding our unit moves. If GS moves next to the city, we will have a tough call to make. I doubt it will come to that.

Philosophy in 9 turns still, which means that at 100% we are still researching slowly. The new cities and accompanying pop growth should help soon.

You can get all the other relevant info off the screenshots. And as mentioned above, after Elipolis is built, Diss or I will send around the game save so we can all tinker with the city build queues and citizen arrangements and have a good discussion about what we should be doing next.

In retrospect, I am thinking we should have built two granaries earlier on instead of temples. We are doing well culturally in the score - but not expansion wise. We can still pump out a granary in the capitol in 10 turns.

Also in retrospect, I think we should change the name of Luxview to something else - if Neu D or GoW move there, we don't want them to see this as gloating or taunting in any way. I didn't do it this turn.

So who's up next - Wittlich City!

	25-02-2003 04:10									#108
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And BTW, I attached this note to the save went sent to Lux:

Trip and BFM,

We will need to keep an eye on the GS warrior who has moved close to your territory. Let's hope he is just observing. If he moves to the tile next to the city, we will be forced to act. Our position is that technically it is still our city. I suspect he is just an observer to ensure we are not up to anything. We actually have as part of our border agreement an accompanying observer agreement to ensure compliance.

So, welcome to Estonia. That is the continent's name. You are in South Estonia, and as previously discussed, just north of the GS-Vox border. I hope it will be more peaceful here than your previous home.

Trust all is well. We left the beer fridge full. ... Beta.

	25-02-2003 07:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound So who's up next - Wittlich City!

Either that or you can name it after yourself if you like...what was your choice? Betaville or was it Betatown?

If don't want that city named after you...then sure, I'll accept Wittlich City!

	25-02-2003 14:07									#110
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yeah just do Betatown or Wittlich city. Either way.

Yeah Luxview is obsolete since they don't exist over on that side any more.

and they may have moved their warrior to that spot to make contact. Because they may have not realized that we gave GS comm frequencey (smac talk ) to Lux. Giving Lux GS's frequency should autmatically give GS Lux's right? I think so. But GS may have not noticed it on their diplo button.

	25-02-2003 19:15									#111
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Diss - good point. I just assumed they would realize they have it. But you are right - there is no notice of deals accepted or when a 'comm frequency' has been granted.

	26-02-2003 00:41									#112
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1500bc turn played.

Elipolis built!!!

Building temple or granary - I can't recall which. This needs to be dicussed.

The Voice - Settler produced in 3 turns, but pop growth to 3 in four turns. Or we go over to the production of a granary. We can produce it in 8 turns as prodcution goes up in 4 turns. And then produce a settler 5 turns after that. This may be the better option. So:

A - settler in 4, with pop dropping back down to size 1.

or

B - granary in 8, settler in 13, possibly 12, leaving pop at size 3, but then growing every 4 turns.

I suggest we go with B. (and as I said earlier - we should have done this ages ago. And used the worker to cut down forest to rush the job. Oh well, live and learn.)

Miller Town - granary in 18. Will be less than that as the city grows.

Luxview renamed to Wittlich City!!! Producing barracks. 18 turns. It will also be less than that as the city grows.

Workers - northern worker finishes woodchopping in 4 turns. Should then irrigate that tile to get it to 2f1s.

SW worker still clearling jungle for Lux. 8 turns to go. We should get them to produce a worker asap and take over this function for us so we can move on to improving more important tiles.

SE worker will be done the road in the jungle in 1 turn. We need to decide on city placement asap, as his next roading assignement depends on that.If we are going with the 3 border city arrangement, then he needs to move down one more tile on the coast and keep roading. After that, the iron mountain tile.

An now that I think of it - this lends fiurther support for option B above. If we get the settler out now - and the priority is to link up the iron in a 3 border city arrangement - then that settler settles tile#5, the lone grassland tile on the point surrounded by the three mountains. Starting him there in 4 turns will take a lot longer as the last tile will still not have been roaded. And getting him there before the iron mountain tile is roaded will still not get us iron.

So - we need confirmation on the city site plan.

Philosophy in 8 turns. Hopefully that will start to accelerate somewhat as the population increases. (It sure would have been nice if they had produced a beaker bin for keeping track of this, similar to what each city has for food and shield production.)

Warrior and settler fortified down south.

Northern warrior back to Miller Town now that GS looks like they are strictly in observer mode.

Will send the save around for others to look at and tinker with. To tinker with our civ only, though!!

Last edited by Beta on 26-02-2003 at 02:23

	26-02-2003 04:23									#113
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I can't believe Eliopolis has such corruption. it is so close to our captiol. irritating.

Because I built the city and put the worker on the roaded forest square. one commerce is lost to corruption .

I don't think we will be able to get philosophy any faster.

	26-02-2003 09:29									#114
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Hi Diss - if and when you play the turn - 75 gold to GS, and Writing to Lux.

jon and I hammered out a deal - not a bad one - with GS tonight.

More on it tomorrow morning.

	26-02-2003 18:11									#115
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I thought the deal still needs to be agred upon

that they were taking it back?

Jon Miller

	26-02-2003 18:50									#116
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Yes - I guess you are right. How about we put the 75 gold up as accepted, which will be an encoragement for them to think quickly. And we hold off on the writing to Lux for a turn.

Besides - I still need to write Lux and tell them the deal - hey - what about a joing Vox and Gs letter to Lux - that way there will be no misunderstanding on anybody's part as to expectations. And it will discourage Lux from trying to cut side deals and disrupt the status quo.

What do you think?

	26-02-2003 19:12									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I can't believe Eliopolis has such corruption. it is so close to our captiol. irritating. Because I built the city and put the worker on the roaded forest square. one commerce is lost to corruption . I don't think we will be able to get philosophy any faster.

I hadn't looked at. Despotism sucks.

We may need to get to 3 shields to get two. I would have thought it would be better as well. We only have four cities - and it is fairly close to the capitol. Again - despotism....

Yes - I think we are stuck with the number of turns to philosophy. Gs was not impressed last night with our research times. Oh well. We had to wait on them for writing IIRC.

The next few turns may boost research a bit as the pop in The Voice and Miller Town grows. Using the lake tile for Miller Town makes a big difference I found - but it cuts into shield production.

	27-02-2003 08:48									#118
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edited and updated...

Turn played.

75 gold sent to GS. I have also sent nathan a letter asking if GS has approved the deal with Lux. I will write up that deal later in the foreign affairs column.

I got Philo down to 6 turns by some tweaking. I had tp slow pop growth in Elipolis, but felt it was worth it. I could have gotten it down to 5 by moving citizens up north - but that had serious impacts on pop growth and production times. I did not feel it was worth it for one more turn of research.

Besides, Miller Town grows this turn, and the Voice in 3 (I think - I am updating this by memeory at work without the save handy). That should bring more research on line as well.

I have informed GS-nathan by PM of our reserach timing. They indicated the other night that they are completing code-of-laws in the next couple of turns.

Witt City is still on barracks. The Voice and Miller Town on granaries. And Elipolis on a temple - which could just be a shield bank for a harbor for when we get map making - which should be soon as Gs is working on a trade for MM using Code of Laws and 15 gold.

As we may get MM sooner than later - we should start thinking on a strategy for settling the other side of the straight. I have some ideas and can post them in a new thread to get the discussion going.

Moved warrior out of Lux terr. and back to his mountain look-out.

SE warrior finished road and moved down one tile to start roading the next jungle tile. He is right next to the iron mountain.

I twisted trip's arm for them to produce asap a worker to take over from our worker clearing jungle. He said in a couple more turns. We need that other worker for improvements up north.Lots to do. especially with granaries and increased pop grwoth coming.

I think that is it. Will draft up later the GS-Vox agreement regarding Lux.

Cheers!

Last edited by Beta on 27-02-2003 at 19:03

	01-03-2003 07:03									#119
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1450bc turn played.

Not much action. No trades.

Philosophy in 5. Could've gotten it lower at the expense of production, but did not.

The Voice grows to pop 3 in two turns, Granary in 7 but will be in 6 when production increases with the pop growth.

Miller Town grew to size 2 this turn. Granary in 12 turns.

Wittlich city is still producing barracks (16 turns to go. Barracks is a 40 shield build). 8 shields banked so far. Growth in 6 turns. Barracks will actually be produced in 13 turns given pop growth.

Elipolis is now producing two shields per turn. Citizen is working the forest-road tile. 2 shields banked. And two turns to forest being cut - 20 shield boost (I believe). This is probably our best bet for a galley (30 shields). We could also use Wittlich city - but I propose that we need at least one set of barracks.

Southern workers - SE - building new road - 5 turns.

SW - 5 turns to jungle clearing.

That's it.

	01-03-2003 13:21									#120
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The forest gives a 10 shield boost.