15-02-2003 20:21									#181
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Tamerlin, I bet you to it!
Very nice attacks from the Azzuri. Mircea Bergamasco in paticular as a full back was very offensive, the third row was excellent, and Mauro Bergamasco as a winger played quite well. I think the welsh fly half will remember him.
Now on to Twickenham, hoping the blues will be as successful as the other blues.

	15-02-2003 22:52									#182
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England 25 - France 17
Good game from the English. 1 try, 1 drop, penalties.
The French made many fouls, were weak in defense in the center (probably because Garbajosa isn't used to playing with Traille and Merceron), and missed lots of kicks but scored 3 tries (the first one lucky).

Well, at least the Italians won.

	15-02-2003 23:47									#183
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And just about a fair result I think? Not perfect from England but they did enough to overcome the Grand Slam holders.

They pushed us hard in the first half but in the first twenty of the second half we controlled the game completely and took it beyond them really.

Having said that the second half tries were well taken. The first half one I choose to skip over as Hodgson messed up big time.

let me just say that the margin of victory was higher than France achieved in Paris last year when they got praised to the rafters worldwide. Can England expect some acknowledgement from the international press now having beaten the other four of the top five
sides in the world in just three months? Somehow I suspect not.

It's up to the boys not to choke in Dublin now. Wales were truly awful in Rome and they must be concerned about our arrival in Cardiff next weekend.

Still a win is a win - and our destiny is in our hands now.

	16-02-2003 00:37									#184
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Yes the game was England's. Where France missed several kicks, England messed one or two tries by forgetting players after having made the difference. The French lacked discipline and suffered too many penalties from entering rucks/mauls from the side, which proves the pressure from the English was very important.

	16-02-2003 02:55									#185
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LDicesare you have summed up the weaknesses of the French players, the Defence was rather good (to the exception of the central defence in the first half) but the attack was terrible.

The English players displayed a solid game and deserve their victory. In my opinion the French team is no more the top level team it was last year. Very worrying actually.

	16-02-2003 04:01									#186
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The England -v- France game started at 3am my time and there was no telecast! As luck would have it, I happened to be awake listening to the BBC World Service, as is my wont when I can't sleep. I heard the broadcast of the first 15 minutes of the match. Heard the England half fumble the ball and the French going over for the try. The excitement sent me straight to sleep! I woke up this morning to hear the dread result.

Still, as LDiCesares said, at least Italy won. I heard the BBC report on the match. Delivered by a Welshman. He was, um, depressed, calling it a new low.

	16-02-2003 13:05									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Can England expect some acknowledgement from the international press now having beaten the other four of the top five sides in the world in just three months? Somehow I suspect not.

There's that dang lack of self esteem again. A healthy self esteem wouldn't give a hoot what anyone else thinks. Methinks therapy is called for.

	16-02-2003 21:04									#188
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Yes but for me or for the team?

It was a strange game - but it was a win. I don't think the french lads need to get too depressed about the result, all modesty aside they lost narrowly to a damn good side.

LDiCesare was right btw - in particular Hodgson failed to look right after a clean break and missed giving Greenwood a straight run in. Silly errors abounded (e.g. Gomersall pinged for feeding at the scrum leading directly to the second french try).

But it is the first game of a tournament and we should improve. I doubt anyone is looking forward to playing us now.

Oh and Ireland are stuffing Scotland 16-3 as I write...

	17-02-2003 05:03									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes but for me or for the team?

Go for the bulk discount rate.

quote: It was a strange game - but it was a win. I don't think the french lads need to get too depressed about the result, all modesty aside they lost narrowly to a damn good side.

From my reading of various reports, it seems England did pretty much what they did against the Wallabies and ABs - get into a good position and not go on with it for whatever reason. Can't keep doing that.

	17-02-2003 06:41									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes but for me or for the team?

The English team has exhibited a solid game and has constantly harassed the French defence which is the only satisfaction of the game (though not in the first half). The English players have played as they were supposed to, no surprise as far as the tactic is concerned, they have played as they were expected to which should have helped the French team. I must admit I am very angry against the French players and especially the attack. Too many handling errors and a lack of support from the 2nd and 3rd raws have aborted all the occasions. In spite of a try Olivier Magne has played like a as**ole and has commited some serious mistakes Wilkinson has instantly used to score points. Olivier Magne can be one of the best players in the world but he is forgetting he is playing a game called Rugby most of the time. Merceron was in a bad day and missed the penalties he was in charge of scoring.

Even if the English team largely deserves its victory it should be noted that the English try has been scored after Jason Robinson quickly played a ball kicked out of the field by a French player by sending the ball to another player in a direction we can not decently call straight. The referee should have stopped the action and ask for a scrum (introduction France) as it is the case when the ball is not thrown straight in a lineout. At the very least he should have interrupted the action and ask for a lineout (English throw). But Mr Honiss is already well known for its leniency.

I am angry not because of the referee but because of the french attack, really... not a decent performance as far as it is concerned. The mountain has given birth to a mouse.

quote: Oh and Ireland are stuffing Scotland 16-3 as I write...

Bad day for the Scottish Rugby:

Ireland 33 - Scotland 6

As usual, Brian O'Driscoll has been nominated Man of the Match.

	17-02-2003 07:17									#191
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Finbar, I am online and we can test ICQ if you want.

	17-02-2003 07:29									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin You will find the patch here: http://hometown.aol.com/cedricgreene/mge.html Download the 2.42 to MGE.exe to upgrade a Classic Civ2 updated with the 2.42 patch. It might be possible to update from FW with the MGE Zips file.

Kudos. I'll give it a try. If it works though it'll be the first of at least 3 attempts.

quote: And still no excuse from Ravagon...

Uh oh. You'll have to enlighten me on that one... To which of my infractions are you referring (there have been so many )?


Hehe. Another suggestion. Great Wall ---> Fortress Twickenham.
I'm sorry I missed it by the sounds of things. Seems to have been quite entertaining. I'm rather surprised that France failed on the offense though. Traditionally (from what I've seen anyway) they have a reputation for a good attack but poor defense...

	17-02-2003 07:49									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Even if the English team largely deserves its victory it should be noted that the English try has been scored after Jason Robinson quickly played a ball kicked out of the field by a French player by sending the ball to another player in a direction we can not decently call straight. The referee should have stopped the action and ask for a scrum (introduction France) as it is the case when the ball is not thrown straight in a lineout. At the very least he should have interrupted the action and ask for a lineout (English throw). But Mr Honiss is already well known for its leniency.

Mmmm. I expect Havak will apply the Luger Convention - bad luck, it's on the scoreboard.

	17-02-2003 07:51									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Finbar, I am online and we can test ICQ if you want.

Let the world know that the SH is communicating directly with the NH.

	17-02-2003 07:55									#195
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Kudos. I'll give it a try. If it works though it'll be the first of at least 3 attempts.

You give a software three chances, fair enough. Sometime I just throw away the whole thing when it does not work the first time.

quote: Uh oh. You'll have to enlighten me on that one... To which of my infractions are you referring (there have been so many )?

This is a story about a great amount of beans as far as I remember... Ask Finbar.


About Jason Robinson one:

A french player kick the ball outside of the field in the english side, Jason Robinson (in the first half as far as I remember) received the ball and throw the ball to another player in the field. He was perfectly entitled to do so as the ball had not touched someone of the crowd but he does not throw it straight as he is still required to do so under the law of the game, and the fault is really obvious.

I am angry because England could be beaten as the defence managed to repell the English attacks (though it was far from easy). The whole French attack was deficient.

quote: Hehe. Another suggestion. Great Wall ---> Fortress Twickenham.

quote: I'm sorry I missed it by the sounds of things. Seems to have been quite entertaining. I'm rather surprised that France failed on the offense though. Traditionally (from what I've seen anyway) they have a reputation for a good attack but poor defense...

Many handling errors and no support from the 3rd and 2nd raws.

	17-02-2003 08:33									#196
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*bows his head over the defeats of Wales and Scotland*

Dark days indeed for these teams

	17-02-2003 09:47									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Bearcat *bows his head over the defeats of Wales and Scotland* Dark days indeed for these teams

True but losing against Ireland (though Scotland was at home), certainly the best team after England and France in the NH, is not as hard as losing against Italia.

	17-02-2003 10:26									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin is not as hard as losing against Italia.

I won't take that personally!

	17-02-2003 10:50									#199
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I won't take that personally!

It was not meant to be.

And before you ask, yes I am still awake...

	17-02-2003 11:14									#200
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Still awake!? Good grief! I thought you'd gone to bed and woken up again!

7.20am - feel like a morning latté? I could whip one up on my new espresso machine?

	17-02-2003 14:17									#201
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quote: Can't keep doing that.

Does it really matter as long as they gain the result? I’m not convinced myself. World cups have been won with the most boring stuttering performances after all.
I can understand Tamerlin being upset with Magne. And Betson too. The back row really lost out to their England counter parts which much be disappointing. Magne’s try did not save his game because it was our stupid mistake rather than his good play that gained it. Too many Gloucester and Sale players on the pitch really.
Seriously Gomersall lacks that fraction of a second that makes the difference between him and Dawson.

quote: The referee should have stopped the action and ask for a scrum

yeah yeah – and Magne came from an offside position to claim the first try. The second resulted from an incorrect call from Honiss at the scrum. If wishes were fishes… I really do have to invoke the Luger convention

Regardless of where Robbo came from he scythed through your defence very sweetly?

Will Greenwood replied when the silly BBC girl said “if they had kicked their penalties they would have won” : Yeah and if they had scored four more tries they would have won. But they didn’t.

It's worth pointing out again that we missed a fistful of chances once the line had been broken through poor vision - I hope Hodgson in particular sharpens up for next week.

quote: But Mr Honiss is already well known for its leniency.

He had a very poor game as always. He didn’t like your loose head much did he?

quote: As usual, Brian O'Driscoll has been nominated Man of the Match.

He had a towering game again – as did the fly half Humphries. They scored a late penalty to make it 36-6 in the end.

Ireland will offer both France and England a real test in Dublin. However both of us will exploit the holes in their defence the way Scotland singularly failed to. I would imagine Scotland are looking at a fifty pointer in Paris next weekend? Did you spot the Tiger who came off the bench and scored a beautiful solo try by the way? If only Murphy was English.

So England visit Cardiff on Saturday. Can’t wait.

By the way can I say how sad I was to hear of Nick Duncombe's premature death at the age of 21. This young Quins scrummy was a regular A team candidate and possible future senior player. Meningitis took him within 48 hours. It's an evil disease - it doesn't matter how fit you are with it.

	17-02-2003 16:21									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Does it really matter as long as they gain the result? I?m not convinced myself. World cups have been won with the most boring stuttering performances after all.

Not often. Certainly not on the way through the various stages.

quote: By the way can I say how sad I was to hear of Nick Duncombe's premature death at the age of 21. This young Quins scrummy was a regular A team candidate and possible future senior player. Meningitis took him within 48 hours. It's an evil disease - it doesn't matter how fit you are with it.

I read about it. Very true, very sad. We've had spates of it here from time to time. The latest thing is meningococal - if that's how it's spelled - which can kill anyone of any age within a couple of days.

On a brighter note, I was watching one of Rick Stein's cooking shows on cable tonight - surprise, surprise - and he said the best bitter comes from Suffolk. Is this so?

On another bright note, did you happen to catch any of "The Office" when it played there? They've just run the two series back to back here. Quite stunning, sublime material.

	17-02-2003 16:42									#203
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Student populations here suffer the occassional flare of it too. Scary frankly.

Suffolk - well yes it's pretty decent. The Adnams and Greeneking breweries are there and there are some beautiful pints that come out of both - Broadside from the former and Abbot Ale from the latter being favourites of mine.

Actually I think Moorlands Speckled Hen is a Greeneking affiliate too - in which case Suffolk provides three ales I rate very highly. Very much recommended to you all.

More heresy from me I am afraid - I caught very little of the office. I keep meaning to buy the DVDs...

	17-02-2003 17:02									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Student populations here suffer the occassional flare of it too. Scary frankly. Suffolk - well yes it's pretty decent. The Adnams and Greeneking breweries are there and there are some beautiful pints that come out of both - Broadside from the former and Abbot Ale from the latter being favourites of mine. Actually I think Moorlands Speckled Hen is a Greeneking affiliate too - in which case Suffolk provides three ales I rate very highly. Very much recommended to you all.

Good grief. Presumably you have a "Havak's Guide To English Bitter" in the word processor?

quote: More heresy from me I am afraid - I caught very little of the office. I keep meaning to buy the DVDs...

Do yourself a favour. It ran here on cable because the ABC, unbelievably, turned it down. I taped it for various friends who don't have cable. Of course, given the enormous reaction it got on cable - leaving aside all the foreign praise and BAFTA Awards - the ABC have now decided to show it.

The style is nothing new - "People Like Us" (another sublime show), et al, did the mocumentary style ages ago - but the content is extraordinary. The way it treads the fine line between humour and painful observation is quite amazing. There are several moments in the last ep of the second series worthy of high class dramatists.

	17-02-2003 17:49									#205
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Pure fluke - you picked an area with two breweries I knew quite well.

I must make sure I catch up with the office. It's the same old story - so much to do, so little time.

	18-02-2003 02:12									#206
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quote: He didn’t like your loose head much did he?

I didn't want to point it out myself, but, indeed... At least in the end of the match he penalized your tight head once. However, depriving the French from their scrum made it very hard for us to put pressure on the opponent and resulted in poor conquest. Lineouts have traditionnally been one of England's good points, so losing balls in scrums, or not being to make these balls bad balls for the English average scrum half proved a hard hit.

The refereeing was quite awful at times, and the bad lineouts were in fact not straight at all, but players have to make do with the referee they get, so that is no excuse. Repeating the same mistake over and over in particular is a proof that the team is being dominated somehow. Also, France got several penalties and was unable to profit from them. I am almost certain Gelez will replace Merceron next week as fly half. He is such a good kicker.

About Italy-Wales match, what made me think the Italians could win was the catastrophic performance of Wales in lineouts. They couldn't keep their ball. I also think all this moving around in the lineout before the hooker throws is a bad thing. This nullifies the corridor between the teams, confuses the hooker (believe me, I hate it when the coach wants me to throw the ball to someone who is not only jumoing but also moving horizontally before). It also reduces the fight for the ball in lineout to a point where it is no longer interesting IMO.

Now I think Ireland-England will be the match to watch. If England wins, I can't see who can beat them in the Tournament.

	18-02-2003 03:53									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Pure fluke - you picked an area with two breweries I knew quite well.

Yeah, yeah. You know every cobblestone in every floor of every bitter brewery in the UK.

quote: I must make sure I catch up with the office. It's the same old story - so much to do, so little time.

Priorities! A bit less painting and wallpapering!

	18-02-2003 03:57									#208
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I also think all this moving around in the lineout before the hooker throws is a bad thing.

I agree completely. Players are so busy shuffling and reshuffling - trying to confuse the opposition - that they end up confusing themselves. As well as making a mockery of the tunnel between the lineouts.

	18-02-2003 14:12									#209
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quote: At least in the end of the match he penalized your tight head once

At least he was consistent because he got that one wrong too.

I think you are right in that the penalising at the scrum stopped you placing pressure on Gomersall. He can look very shaky when on the back foot. Add to that that not only were England winning lineout but Ben Kay was turning over the occasional one of yours (he is one of the best stealers in the business) and it undermined your set pieces quite thoroughly.

I thought Merceron’s tactical kicking was poor as well? He was popping it down the field to Robinson, but he was doing it with Robbo in space and he wasn’t turning him but putting it down the barrel – so it was coming straight back at pace all the time. And neither Ibanez nor Thompson were throwing straight – but apparently Mr Honiss was not calling that last Saturday?

Good points about Wales. It is scary to see them out muscled by the Italians at the set pieces. All Welsh rugby has had to fall back on this last decade is a strong front eight – and now Quinell has walked out on them it looks like even that is falling apart? Colin Charvis is a player I rate highly but he looked quite anonymous Saturday.

Even so I am not taking them lightly as it means everything to their season to beat England. They will throw it all at us early doors so if we can weather the first twenty and stay in touch I am sure we will then start to pull away.

quote: Now I think Ireland-England will be the match to watch. If England wins, I can't see who can beat them in the Tournament.

Not least because we play them in the very last match of the tournament (trust me on that – I’m going to it!). You visit them first (the next match after this weekends round). Ireland have Italy this weekend then you at their place, then Wales away and finally us at their place. If they beat you the Ireland-England game could be a Slam decider!

So here is my request – Tamerlin, LdiCesare please have a word with the boys and make sure they hammer Ireland? Just for me?

quote: Yeah, yeah. You know every cobblestone in every floor of every bitter brewery in the UK.

Well maybe not every cobblestone. Just the better ones.

quote: Priorities! A bit less painting and wallpapering!

Yes I must sort my life out.

quote: As well as making a mockery of the tunnel between the lineouts.

I actually agree with you both. But then I preferred lineouts when jumpers were unassisted and there was no gap – “elbows ahoy!”.

Strangely Mr Honiss policed the lineout gap quite strictly last weekend. Almost NH of him?

So this weekend? France by 40, England by 20, Ireland by 20? Any offers?

	18-02-2003 15:48									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I actually agree with you both. But then I preferred lineouts when jumpers were unassisted and there was no gap ? ?elbows ahoy!?.

Presumably you also preferred it when a chap in a top hat with a red flag walked in front of the new-fangled things called cars?

quote: Strangely Mr Honiss policed the lineout gap quite strictly last weekend. Almost NH of him?

I recall a game within the last 6 months reffed by Honiss for which you gave him at least a pass mark. Which one?

quote: So this weekend? France by 40, England by 20, Ireland by 20? Any offers?

Depends on which teams turn up. If you know what I mean.