07-02-2003 12:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You forgot rape is mostly about power, not sex. Hence, the victims, mostly women, are made to suffer and be humiliated. This is not a factor in most other crimes.

No, I haven't forgotten it. In fact, power is the key aspect of all violent crimes. When someone hurts you, it's becuase they are trying to demonstrate power over you. Whether the violence is sexual or not, the end results are frequently the same.

The fact that rape is seen largely as a crime of men against women, in my mind, leads to a paternalistic impulse to protect women, as if all violent crime isn't something especially horrible. Men are just supposed to suck it up, however, and domestic violene isn't as traumatizing to a woman as being rapes.

Violence is violence.

	07-02-2003 12:27									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger how does a woman rape a man? I can't wrap my head around that one.

It happened a few years ago here locally.

Apparently the duo (there were two of them) had a knife and waylaid a young man walking in an ally. They wanted satisfaction and threatened his life if he did not perform.

Damned if I know how he lived, but he did.

	07-02-2003 12:31									#33
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quote: I don't agree. When normal citizens start carrying handguns, bad guys will start carrying submachine guns. It's just an arms race.

It's an arms race up to easily concealable weapons. Once you get past sawed off shotguns and submachine guns, the race is over. And that means if you have to start carrying submachine guns for protection, then by all means do so.

But in any case, how are muggers going to afford submachine guns, and all the ammo they need? I guess they could take to robbing gun shops, but that's not a very good idea, and in any case, your average Uzi is more expensive than your basic Saturday Night Special. And once a few dozen muggers get shot up, then hopefully would-be muggers will look at the percentages and decide it isn't worth it - instead of a jail term IF they're caught, they're likely to get an INSTANT death penalty.

	07-02-2003 12:32									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Secondly, how does a woman rape a man? I can't wrap my head around that one. Thirdly, why would a hetero man rape a man? I can't warp my head around that one, either.

Power. It's all about power.

BTW, men being raped by women happens more frequently than people want to believe. These men are especially traumatized, since they are now seen as weaker than women, and their cases are often belittled by the police.

As for the how, I'm sure most of you will be surprised to know that, just as in women, you can be forced to have a sexual response. Women frequently not only lubricate during rape but also have orgasms (which leads to internal humiliation). Men can become sexually aroused against their will or when seriously frightened.

As for why a hetero man would rape another man, it's about power, humiliation, and degradation. A gay friend of mine was gang-raped by a bunch of heteros while he was in San Diego (if he was telling the truth and not making up another story). It's often used as a method of torture. Just cuz you can't rap your head around it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

	07-02-2003 12:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As for why a hetero man would rape another man, it's about power, humiliation, and degradation. A gay friend of mine was gang-raped by a bunch of heteros while he was in San Diego (if he was telling the truth and not making up another story). It's often used as a method of torture.

I seriously doubt you could call the rapists hetero.

	07-02-2003 12:53									#36
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Men who rape women are scum. And they should get life in prison.

But just to be clear there are cases of women having legitimate sex with a man and then later accusing them of rape. So it is possible for a woman to enjoy sex and say she was raped at the same time.

	07-02-2003 12:55									#37
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I seriously doubt you could call the rapists hetero.

They're not doing it for sexual pleasure. In fact, many rapists don't actually have orgasms. Rape is about power, not pleasure. Your general sexual orientation has nothing to do with it.

	07-02-2003 13:02									#38
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Really?

I've heard of the 'all sex is about power' crap. I don't buy it. I seriously doubt you could get hetro men to take another man up the poop shoot outside of serious deprivation.

Exactly how much 'power' does it give them?

Maybe I am seriously out of touch with the human condition, but I can't see it. Sorry. And if I were out of touch, why does this phenomena not show up in historical primary sources? Is this a new feature of human behaviour?

	07-02-2003 13:04									#39
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why do men get raped in prison then?

It isn't about deprivation. Sure they are deprived, but it is a show of power. Prison has its class system that is unique.

	07-02-2003 13:09									#40
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Bubba wants to get his rocks off. It's all about power relationships? NOT. It's about Bubba not wanting to use his left hand.

	07-02-2003 13:11									#41
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Really?

I once had a girl friend who I would fool around with. Once she got off, she'd pull away from me. One time I just lost my temper, and for a split second, I was gonna show her who's boss. Fortunately, I regained my cool, calmed down, and have been beating myself up over it for the last sixteen years.

	07-02-2003 13:13									#42
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why would a hetero have sex with another man?

I am pretty desperate right now. I havn't had sex for over a year. And I have a very strong sex drive. But I have never considered having sex with a man.

It's about power.

	07-02-2003 13:15									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident why would a hetero have sex with another man? I am pretty desperate right now. I havn't had sex for over a year. And I have a very strong sex drive. But I have never considered having sex with a man. It's about power.

Really?

If it's about some primordial drive for power, why have you not excercised you 'power' over those available to you?

If it is about 'power', wouldn't you use the 'power' you have to get laid?

	07-02-2003 13:17									#44
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I do have moral values. And I'm not very large person. Women and definately men would kick my ass.

	07-02-2003 13:20									#45
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And what the hell is the 'power' about anyway?

Some UniWeenie who could never get laid gets it in his mind that he does not have enough 'power' therefore he has not been laid since before the last century?

So now we have boiled all human sexual relations down to 'men exercising power over their victims'? Bull sheit! That's all there is to that. Period.

	07-02-2003 13:23									#46
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Just be glad you don't get it. It says you have a hard time understanding the dark part of the human psyche, which means it's rather more likely you're a decent person.

	07-02-2003 13:52									#47
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Back to the point of whether or not it is ok to make light of rape. Why was it ok for women to bring jokes to work making fun of Lorena Bobbit castrating her husband? If a man had brought in some joke about cutting off a woman's breast, he would have been fired and probably forced to seek counselling. Now there is that case in the news where a woman ran over her husband with her car three times. Again women are thinking this is the funniest thing.

	07-02-2003 15:45									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As for the how, I'm sure most of you will be surprised to know that, just as in women, you can be forced to have a sexual response.

If you can't get it up, you can't get it up. That's the part I don't understand.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Women frequently not only lubricate during rape but also have orgasms (which leads to internal humiliation).

Cite?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As for why a hetero man would rape another man, it's about power, humiliation, and degradation. A gay friend of mine was gang-raped by a bunch of heteros while he was in San Diego (if he was telling the truth and not making up another story). It's often used as a method of torture. Just cuz you can't rap your head around it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Sure, I understand the power part. The thing I don't understand is, a hetero just can't do it to a man, power or no power. His brain just isn't wired that way.

	07-02-2003 15:50									#49
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moses, its because women historicly have been victims of abuse/violence/rape from men, and this is sort of vindication in their eyes for past wrongs. its a double standard for sure, but its one that i dont think is that harmful to society.

	07-02-2003 16:40									#50
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Che is thouroughly correct here, though I do agree that rape tends to be more traumatic than most other assaults.

There are many verities about rape that are not well known, in part because of political pressure from both feminists and more conservative elements of society. Che is dead on about rape victims sometimes becoming unintentionally aroused, and feeling mightily guilty about it later. He is also correct when he says that some women aren't as adversely effected by a rape as some people are from even a threat of violence during a robbery.

Here's the key point of departure on this issue for most people. Most rape victims are chosen because they have already been raped and / or sexually abused in the past. Remember that over 70% of rapes are "aquaintance rapes", where the victim and the rapist at least know each other, and many times have or are dating. Those of you who are familiar with trauma, especially that which occurs during childhood know that a very common response is to split the person's psyche into two parts. One part remains more or less as it was, with no clear memory of the incident while the other suffers the pain, fear and humiliation. In effect what is created is a split personality, although rarely does this condition lack the subtlety of its popular portrayal in the media.

A person who has endured this sort of thing is a ready made victim. Not only have their boundaries been erased at an early age (which leads to a minimalization of sexual assault of any level in their eyes), but if one were to rape them it is very likely that they will shift their personality into victim mode. They might not even remember what happened, or they may ignore it. They aren't all that likely to report it unless they are urged to by someone close to them.

Most rapists can size these people up fairly quickly, in part because they themselves have experienced sexual abuse themselves, or are already skilled at rape.

If you want to fight rape, there is no better way to do so IMO than fight child abuse, because a high percentage of both victims and rapists were created by child abuse. The best way to take a bridge is from both sides at once, and the best way to fight rape is to detour both victims and perpetrators away from it as early as possible.

	07-02-2003 16:53									#51
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i sikander. spot on!

	07-02-2003 17:16									#52
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Of course, if you carry around a nice, loaded handgun, you can worry less about muggings and rape, and muggers and rapists can start worrying more about getting their brains blown out - this is how things should be.

Rapists don't think like that.

	07-02-2003 18:03									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 i sikander. spot on!

Do you have a Spanish character set enabled? I like the double exclamation points!

Oh, and thanks.

	07-02-2003 20:52									#54
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Che, I know of no woman who thinks forced sex is 'OK'. I see nothing wrong with life sentances for violent, forced sexual acts.

	07-02-2003 21:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 moses, its because women historicly have been victims of abuse/violence/rape from men, and this is sort of vindication in their eyes for past wrongs. its a double standard for sure, but its one that i dont think is that harmful to society.

I respect your opinion, but that is BS. Just because you see yourself as a victim, there was some truth to this, especially in the past, but US women are more than empowered now, this view is little more than feminazi propaganda, and it doesn't give women the right to ridicule sexual mutilation and murder. I don't know how many women I know who think it is perfectly ok to make references to castrating men.

Men like this view of themselves as the victimizers of women, as it feeds their own need for superiority. Men will always be the psychological subordinates of women. Men need the women far more than women need the men.

	07-02-2003 21:13									#56
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MosesPresley, you seem to be forgetting in the Lorena Bobbitt scenario that John Wayne Bobbitt was a rapist and she mutilated him after he had raped her (yes, men can rape their own spouses). He was an abusive dickwad, and frankly, he got what he deserved. Less, actually, since today he still has use of his penis and has even profited off of it. While I don't think what Lorena did was right, I see no problem in making light of John Wayne's predicament.

I haven't heard anyone making jokes about the woman who ran over her husband in a manner different than what late night talk show hosts do. Crass, yes, but hardly a sign of feminazism.

	07-02-2003 21:37									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Che, I know of no woman who thinks forced sex is 'OK'. I see nothing wrong with life sentances for violent, forced sexual acts.

It's not exactly that they think it's ok, but that they think it is normal and should be expected. He isn't talking about all women but there is a significant portion of females out there that think along those lines. When I was first confronted with it a few years ago with a girlfriend of mine I was confused as well. With her I was expected to take sex whenever I felt like it and in her mind her feelings about it was unimportant. In fact, like che stated, when I didn't force her into things I was somehow rejecting her and it would hurt her feelings. Before long she would actually do things to provoke me. Since then I have seen it with a lot more of the women I have been around. I believe this occurs with those that have been raped or attacked more than once. In her case she had been raped twice by an ex boyfriend and had a history of abuse by her father from an early age.

On the topic of weither rape should be treated more seriously than other violent crimes, I have no problem with that. But I do understand che's point. Violence is violence regardless if it's sexually motivated or for economic gain. One argument for treating rapists of all types more harshly than other criminals may be that because of the nature of the crime, rapists represent a greater chance of continuing their ways while muggers may not. Of course that means nothing to a person that was beaten for his credit cards. It's not a prefect world.

	07-02-2003 21:47									#58
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quote: It's not exactly that they think it's ok, but that they think it is normal and should be expected.

Maybe a decade or so back, but not anymore. No woman I've spoken to considers forced sex 'normal'.

	07-02-2003 21:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov MosesPresley, you seem to be forgetting in the Lorena Bobbitt scenario that John Wayne Bobbitt was a rapist and she mutilated him after he had raped her (yes, men can rape their own spouses). He was an abusive dickwad, and frankly, he got what he deserved. Less, actually, since today he still has use of his penis and has even profited off of it. While I don't think what Lorena did was right, I see no problem in making light of John Wayne's predicament. I haven't heard anyone making jokes about the woman who ran over her husband in a manner different than what late night talk show hosts do. Crass, yes, but hardly a sign of feminazism.

JWB was a "rapist". He did deserve what he got, if you think street justice, poetic justice or whatever you want to call it is the way one should conduct themselves in a civilized society. I disagree with that part. My problem is with the double standard. Forced sexual mutilation is abhorrent and is not a laughing matter. Maybe Monty Python in their heyday or somebody else might be able to spin comic gold from this, but that is besides the point. If a man was to make jokes in mixed company about how some soldiers, pick any war, or a serial killer (often they are victims of sexual abuse) sexually mutilated women, he would be villified and ostracized and rightly so. Excusing the women for this callousness plays into the hands of the feminazis. That is the point I was making.

	07-02-2003 21:51									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's not exactly that they think it's ok, but that they think it is normal and should be expected. Maybe a decade or so back, but not anymore. No woman I've spoken to considers forced sex 'normal'.

Aren't you guys confusing play-forced-sex and rape, which is real forced sex?