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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by redstar1
But sometimes we have to put ourselves first, the courthouse in Karina being a prime example. Has anyone modelled the corruption cut and the boost in production from this? |
Look here. Other, courthouse-less simulations for comparison are at the top of the same page. Basically, Karina has 60% corruption w/out the courthouse and 40% corruption with (both of those figures are post-Rep). Very much worth the gold, I'd say, though I don't know if it would make up for itself if it has to be built without a rush.
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
quote:
Plus gold to allow us to lower the tax rate and increase the science rate |
Increase what? We are at 100% research... if you mean we will have to knock down our research slider a bit after switching to Republic, to be able to pay for all our city improvements and units, then it is necessary to mention the EXTRA gold flowing into our treasury because of lower corruption and extra commerce. |
Well, if we have extra gold once in Republic, we could raise the science slider and run a deficit for a while. But that isn't a necessary move.
Overall, you've convinced me we should give Vox a loan. Just don't pay them too much money.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
I am not opposed to giving Vox a loan - but 200 gold right now is a bit too much right now in my opinion. |
I would have to repeat what I have already said several times. Your opinion is one thing - mine is another.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
How would 80-100 gold for the map be insulting when they have offered it to us for free? (from the Nimitz chat). I am sure they would understand that we could only afford 80-100 gold right now due to upgrade and goldrush needs in the near future. |
We are not talking about buying their map - they did say they'd give it to us for free. We are talking about supporting Voxian war efforts. 80-100 gold is going to make a small difference (less than half of what 200 gold would make  ). Instead of establishing ourselves as a truly helpful ally, we would look like mean bastards that look after themselves only, giving up only crumbs not really needed. An ally is someone helping even if it costs something, not someone generously throwing leftovers that are not needed "for his own needs".
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The sooner we are able to get the FP the better - it will benefit all of our southern cities greatly. |
That's certainly true. How does that relate to the war loan issue though?
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We will need to upgrade our units - I for one don't want to have very many warriors left by the time we change governments or soon afterwards. |
Even with a loan of 200 gold, we will still have ~400 gold left (even if not slowing down our research). That is enough to upgrade the remaining 4 warriors and rush the Courthouse in Karina.
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We will need to upgrade to med inf for our swordsmen - especially due to our delay in getting chivalry and upgrading to knights. We need something to counter the UU of our eastern neighbours - and for them chivalry is likely a major priority. Relying on our merc shouldn't be our only option. Getting 2 mercs in our northern cities asap should be another priority. |
As I said, I see no reason why we should upgrade our swords to medieval infantry prior to any threats actually emerging. Keeping them in barracked cities (Panama, Jacxkson), ready for an instant upgrade shall be just as fine. Also, speaking about this possibility, we're ignoring the fact that if our eastern neighbours (I suppose you are talking about Bobians, including GoW) were really planning to attack us, they would never trade Feudalism (and Chivalry) to us, making the upgrade impossible anyway.
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Vox defeating GS shouldn't be our #1 priority - we have enough problems on our own as is. It may be extremely useful to us in the long run - GS is/was our major commerce competitor - but the ND-GoW alliance probably easily exceeds our tech ability and can research 2 techs at once. |
Care to state these problem, Steve? Pretty please! All I can see is that we may have to stop researching for 3 turns to make the money we are talking about. That is - considering that we know of no other team researching along the Edu branch of the tech-tree - hardly a problem.
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And as for the 15 turns to switch to Republic, I wasn't aware that had been decided already - I still favor switching after we get Theology out of the way. |
See here. If you favour switching earlier, it may be a good idea to provide an analysis showing the benefits of such approach.
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As for Vox helping us tremendously - get serious, they haven't done THAT much - you are overstating their usefulness to us so far - GoW and even ND (by their map ) have helped us out much more - even getting Republic from GS will help us immensely. |
I do not believe I am overstating the usefulness of the current Voxian efforts to us. And if it sounds like I am not serious, then be sure I am very serious about all this. The importance of significantly slowing or stopping GS is magnitude bigger for us than what GoW & ND did for us combined.
ATTENTION, EVERYBODY
Steve indicated he wanted to hold a vote on this issue. And I agree this is a matter serious enough to hold a vote. Prior to posting one, I'd like to make sure I post a vote that will be "fair" in that it will include all options and will allow everybody to vote for a one he really supports, while leading to a meaningful and usable result.
Thus, I would like everybody to answer the following questions here now:
1) Shall we provide Vox Controli with a war loan of 200 gold, if they ask for it?
2) If not, then what is the maximum amount you would agree to?
3) What special requirements you'd condition the loan with?
4) Do you support our government switch right after Logville poprushes its Temple? (in 13 turns from now, I think) If not, what is your gov switch preference?
EDIT:
5) Shall we arrange the deal to get the Vox map NOW or after the war is over? Or both?
Just a feeling, but I imagine that if we provide them with the loan they'd need and explain we'd prefer getting the map of their continent when it is complete, rather than just a map of the Voxian current territory, they may throw the current map in as a free extra - as that is basically what they have already offered, their current map for free... we may wish to make the post-war map part of the loan deal.
If you can think of anything else that needs to be addressed, add your comments, please. Once I have input from the active members, I will do my best to post the poll covering the issue in detail.
Last edited by vondrack on 18-04-2003 at 06:23
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Sharpe
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Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:26
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quote:
Care to state these problem, Steve? Pretty please! All I can see is that we may have to stop researching for 3 turns to make the money we are talking about. That is - considering that we know of no other team researching along the Edu branch of the tech-tree - hardly a problem. |
Well our ally Vox is hardly doing any research. And what are we going to do during those proposed turns between the discovery of Theology and the completion of the poprushes? Also don't forget the lost beakers during the time we will be in anarchy. And don't forget that the other blocks are all religious and thus lost less beakers than us during their switches ...
...and on top of all this you are talking about adding 3-4 more turns with no beakers? We are losing enough turns of research as it is! Relatively to the other civs we lose more ground in research. Certainly our ally Vox can't compensate for us as they are probably at 80 to 100 % gold right now ...
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I would have to repeat what I have already said several times. Your opinion is one thing - mine is another. |
So we have agreed to disagree - fine - both of our opinions are equal and equally important.
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I do not believe I am overstating the usefulness of the current Voxian efforts to us. And if it sounds like I am not serious, then be sure I am very serious about all this. The importance of significantly slowing or stopping GS is magnitude bigger for us than what GoW & ND did for us combined. |
Well you are overstating it - the GoW trade catchup was immensely important - Vox has done little for us so far in comparison.
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The sooner we are able to get the FP the better - it will benefit all of our southern cities greatly.
That's certainly true. How does that relate to the war loan issue though? |
Well you were the one talking about having to accept only a 250 goldrush instead of Kloreep's 360 gold proposal - that's 110 gold right there...
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Even with a loan of 200 gold, we will still have ~400 gold left (even if not slowing down our research). That is enough to upgrade the remaining 4 warriors and rush the Courthouse in Karina. |
Uh, admittedly it is from the previous 690bc turn, but it shows there 489 gold currently (should be 497 by the current turn) - minus 200 equals 289-297 gold NOT 400 gold left - more like 300 - not even enough to do the courthouse rush alone and not including the warrior upgrades.
Last edited by Sharpe on 18-04-2003 at 06:46
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:26
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As I see things at the moment, I can't make decision on whether I would approve a loan or not because as of yet, I have not seen the actual details of a loan. That is, when will we be giving it, what will be the repayment plan, any other conditions, etc. The most important item, of course, is the timing. Speaking only for myself, I can solidly say I will not approve any loans until I see a plan, in writing, covering all of those issues. Then I can make a decision.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
Well our ally Vox is hardly doing any research. |
Voxes are researching Engineering at 10% (40 turns). Which means they are saving cash, while still researching a "blocking" technology they will be able to provide to us (whatever the deal is going to be). As we will not need Engineering prior to finishing Education, this is perfectly fine.
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And what are we going to do during those proposed turns between the discovery of Theology and the completion of the poprushes? |
I do not think I understand the question...  we can either start researching Education (maintaining our huge lead in the Edu branch), or we can stockpile money (making the 200 gold war loan to Voxes a non-issue even with all the proposed upgrades/rushes).
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Also don't forget the lost beakers during the time we will be in anarchy. And don't forget that the other blocks are all religious and thus lost less beakers than us during their switches ... |
Yet I still do not see anyone following us through Theology, being even remotely close to our progress there. So what's your point? Extra beakers are not relevant, if you do not use them for actually researching something. The religious civs are: RPers (we know their research capabilities are vastly inferior to ours, due to the bad city placement and absence of a solid core), NeuD (their research is also inferior to ours, plus they were losing few turns by finishing Currency on their own - thus we do not need to fear them catching up on us). And GS? Well... that's what all this is about. GS was SIGNIFICANTLY faster in researching than we were - they started with Feudalism (cost 32, 768 beakers) just one turn before we started with Theology. They have finished it last turn, AFAIK - that's 12 turns. That puts their research at 64 beakers per turn on average. Even considering the fact they had the advantage of their GA for the last 3 turns, it's scary. We are at 58 beakers per turn NOW (our average was about 44 beakers for the same time period). That's exactly why I consider supporting Voxes so important. GS started the game very well (considering economy) and we would have difficult times catching up peacefully.
quote:
...and on top of all this you are talking about adding 3-4 more turns with no beakers? We are losing enough turns of research as it is! Relatively to the other civs we lose more ground in research. Certainly our ally Vox can't compensate for us as they are probably at 80 to 100 % gold right now ... |
The fact that someone has a fine research potential (not that I would see anyone but GoW in that situation) is not helpful, if there is nothing to research... and starting to research a 16-17 turn project just 3 turns later means you need about 20% higher research output to be able to discover it faster. I do not see anybody else being that potent research-wise. And if there is nobody like that, then we are safe in our branch of research, since we would be able to finish all our projects earlier than anyone else, thus making their investment more or less wasted (by lowering its trade potential significantly).
Unless I am totally wrong, we have about a 12-turn lead on the research of Theology. As we do not plan to trade this technology until we are done with Education, I believe it is safe to assume we will get both Theology and Education and will be able to trade those techs for other techs (and maybe gold). All we need THEN is to start at the same time as everybody else, since with all our cities, libraries, and republic, we will again outresearch anybody else (but GS, if left unhindered).
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So we have agreed to disagree - fine - both of our opinions are equal and equally important. |
Exactly. Be so kind and post your answers, please, so that I am able to prepare a poll as soon as possible.
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Well you are overstating it - the GoW trade catchup was immensely important - Vox has done little for us so far in comparison. |
Read my post carefully, Steve. I am comparing the significance of GS leaving the game or being badly hurt to what GoW & NeuD have done for us so far.
quote:
Well you were the one talking about having to accept only a 250 goldrush instead of Kloreep's 360 gold proposal - that's 110 gold right there... |
Huh? Having to accept? I said there is no need to spend 360 gold on rushing a Courthouse in Karina. Kloreep was wrong, that's all - a Courthouse costs 80 shields, that's 80*4=320 gold even if rushed from scratch. And I showed there was a way to build the Courthouse in Karina at the same or shorter time using only 250 gold (the only difference is that we'd use a 2-pop rush instead of a 1-pop rush for the Temple build there - I haven't had time to check whether that may be a problem... but I do not think so).
quote:
Uh, admittedly it is from the previous 690bc turn, but it shows there 489 gold currently (should be 497 by the current turn) - minus 200 equals 289-297 gold NOT 400 gold left - more like 300 - not even enough to do the courthouse rush alone and not including the warrior upgrades. |
 For God's sake, play fair, Steve! Why do you present the data twisted in your favour? We are to receive 70 more gold from RPers and I would really be surprised if we do not disperse at least 2 more barb camps (2*25=50 gold). Even considering we will have to pay something for our city improvements and even if we make NO gold at all on the last turn of our research, that is still almost exactly 400 gold.
We cannot use more 4*40 gold at this very moment (warrior upgrades - and even those are impossible due to the deployment of our warriors far from barracked cities). Everything else will not be needed until we switch the government, which is at least 15 turns away.
I am not going to respond regarding this issue any more. I have explained my stance, reasons, and goals in great detail, running numbers, suggesting ways etc... Be so kind, everybody, answer the questions I asked above. I shall post a poll then and we'll hopefully be able to conclude this tiresome debate.
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Sharpe
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Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:26
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Thus, I would like everybody to answer the following questions here now:
1) Shall we provide Vox Controli with a war loan of 200 gold, if they ask for it?
No, the loan should be less than that.
2) If not, then what is the maximum amount you would agree to?
Preferably 80 gold, though I can support 100 gold too - absolute max would be 120 - though I would be reluctant to give that much.
3) What special requirements you'd condition the loan with?
Repayment conditions on that loan, their map and probably time to discuss the other loan (would be willing to wipe out part of that loan)
4) Do you support our government switch right after Logville poprushes its Temple? (in 13 turns from now, I think) If not, what is your gov switch preference?
No, I prefer the turn we get Theology still.
5) Shall we arrange the deal to get the Vox map NOW or after the war is over? Or both?
Both preferably - we can always use the "we want to see if we are within galley range of you to help and trade with us" excuse for the 2nd map if they conquer GS (plus they would get the Lighthouse wonder too)
quote:
Uh, admittedly it is from the previous 690bc turn, but it shows there 489 gold currently (should be 497 by the current turn) - minus 200 equals 289-297 gold NOT 400 gold left - more like 300 - not even enough to do the courthouse rush alone and not including the warrior upgrades.
quote:
For God's sake, play fair, Steve! Why do you present the data twisted in your favour? |
You talk about me twisting data in my favour ? Oh boy, that is really funny - it is not as though you don't twist data to your favour is it? Though I will admit that I did forget about the 50 RP gold on turn 102 - assuming we still get it - so my omission was purely unintentional in this case.
Last edited by Sharpe on 18-04-2003 at 07:57
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Sharpe
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Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:26
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Well perhaps that was a tad too harsh - I just found it funny that you accused me of something I think you do every once in a while.
I don't see the point of mentioning specifics ... there would be no point except winning or losing an argument.
I think that it is time to stop these accusations and "quote wars" between us and put the matter to a vote when possible to let the team decide. We simply don't agree on this matter at all...
Last edited by Sharpe on 18-04-2003 at 08:48
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lmtoops
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Dallas, Texas
Mar 2002
time: 23:26
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Both you guys are speculating on the future, so it's naturally to lean the numbers in your favor. So Sharpe takes the numbers as if they are frozen in time, which makes it look like much less.
Then Vondrack takes the number and speculate that we will get barbarian villages and the numbers come up fine. Whatever.....it's a side argument.
The questions:
1 and 2) The key is...if they ask. I think it would be a great compromise to settle for less than 200 g. Sharpe says 120 max (and he is not happy with that). Sounds like 120 g is a good compromis.
3) No special requirements. They need to repay; but that could take many forms.
4)Govt switch after Theology
5)Get map after the War. Other than curiosity, we don't need it now. If they throw it in...fine, but this is not important.
6) Oh...there is no 6. I was against it anyway
I'll close out by saying that whatever we loan out; we cannot count it as ours until it is repaid. When I loan money to friends, I don't plan on getting the money back. I expect it back, but you never know. If I must have the money back, then don't loan it out.
So I argree we don't need the money now. I also think that if we lose the 320 g loan (200 + 120), then we will be OK. It's a lot of gold, but can be made up. It is a worthy risk that may eliminate our nearest tech rival.
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:26
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Ok, let me hit you guys with my loan proposal: What is the one thing we can all be sure of in this game? The answer: that things change. So, with that in mind, I propose that we split any loan into two sections.
1. When Vox asks us for a loan officially, we give them 100 gold on the spot, and at the same time they give us their current map.
2. Later (by about 10 turns, I'd imagine), a turn before we go into Republic, we check with Vox again. If the situation remains that they still need cash, we loan them another 50-100 gold. This second half will be dependant on what has happened in the meantime. If we feel Vox are going to be blown out of the water, we probably won't want to throw our money away. If we think they're going to clean up, maybe we'll throw them some extra to help speed it up. Basically, we re-evaluate the situation.
3. Immediately upon conclusion of the war, Vox gives us their map again. Then, they pay us a lump sum down payment on the loan, maybe 50 (or more, if they can spare it), followed up by per turn payments of 10 to 15. This too will be re-evaluated as the situation calls for.
So, that's it. Pretty simple, I think. We help Vox now, we weigh the benefits later, we assess our needs and their needs based on the current situation, not on any formulas or anything ahead of time.
Furthermore, my understanding is that Vox is researching Engineering. I, for one, would like to get my hands on that. They have said they still owe us for the whole c+c/RP thing, so I think getting Engineering from them would be payment enough, yeah? With that being the case, it's in our interest to make sure Vox stays around long enough to give it to us. I'd imagine, with the war and all, probably at least 20-25 turns, which is quite reasonable. So, in the best possible scenario, we spend 100-200 gold, get engineering for free, get a world map, and get our money back! You can't beat that. Even in a worse scenario, we'll still at least get the tech and the map, and probably some cash.
So, there you have it. What do you all think?
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by lmtoops
4)Govt switch after Theology |
Leo, just checking... speaking to ZargonX about an hour ago, we have found out that we meant the same, while he was favouring an "earlier switch", while I was for "finishing the poprushes first".
After Zargon re-read the analysis here, he realized we were actually in agreement. The difference between switching immediately after the discovery of Theology (Turn 103) and switching after the Logville Temple poprush (Turn 108) is 5 turns.
These 5 extra turns would allow us to 2-poprush Temples in Logville and Dye Fields (and most probably in Sharpehaven, too - depends on what the number of wasted shields will be for connected Sharpehaven producing 3 raw shields... if it is 2 wasted shields, then we'd be short of 1 shield - if it is just 1 wasted shield out of the 3 produced, we would be able to 2-pop rush a Temple there as well). Two 2-pop rushes are worth 2*2*20*4=320 gold. We would certainly not gain that much by switching to Republic those 5 turns sooner (and the pop loss is not worth mentioning as thanks to The Pyramids, we will have pop more than enough).
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
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First, the answers:
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Thus, I would like everybody to answer the following questions here now:
1) Shall we provide Vox Controli with a war loan of 200 gold, if they ask for it?
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Yes. I'd go even further and offer it.
quote:
2) If not, then what is the maximum amount you would agree to? |
Irrelevant question for me.
quote:
3) What special requirements you'd condition the loan with?
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their WM and 100 gold when the war is over, but not later than [TBA] turns
quote:
4) Do you support our government switch right after Logville poprushes its Temple? (in 13 turns from now, I think) If not, what is your gov switch preference?
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Yes, absolutely. That will be the best use of our Pyramids, using pop-rushing.
quote:
5) Shall we arrange the deal to get the Vox map NOW or after the war is over? Or both?[/i]
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After, hoping that they will provide us with one soon, just for fun
Now, my tiny little opinion: 
I find this dispute, I apologize, but totally irrelevant. I'm not sure if that's the right word, so let me explain: we either agree that we help the Voxes win the war or we decide that we don't help them. What possibly difference can make 100 gold (since Sharpe already agreed on 100, while Radek asks for 200) for us in the next 15-20 turns? Sharpe, do you really think that if GoW + ND decide to attack us with their UUs 100 gold could help us better than 10 immortals landing near Imperial city?
So the real question is: do we consider that GS losing and Vox winning is important for us or not? If yes, then 100 gold shouldn't be a problem, really. We won't win this game with a 100 more gold in our account. It is a question of perspective: do we want to invest some money in a big business/deal, or save some cash instead, to be sure that we will be able to pay the next month bills? I personally think that playing this game "by the book" is a sure loser. A loser who will last longer than a bad investor, but still a loser.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by ZargonX
Ok, let me hit you guys with my loan proposal: What is the one thing we can all be sure of in this game? The answer: that things change. So, with that in mind, I propose that we split any loan into two sections.
1. When Vox asks us for a loan officially, we give them 100 gold on the spot, and at the same time they give us their current map.
2. Later (by about 10 turns, I'd imagine), a turn before we go into Republic, we check with Vox again. If the situation remains that they still need cash, we loan them another 50-100 gold. This second half will be dependant on what has happened in the meantime. If we feel Vox are going to be blown out of the water, we probably won't want to throw our money away. If we think they're going to clean up, maybe we'll throw them some extra to help speed it up. Basically, we re-evaluate the situation.
3. Immediately upon conclusion of the war, Vox gives us their map again. Then, they pay us a lump sum down payment on the loan, maybe 50 (or more, if they can spare it), followed up by per turn payments of 10 to 15. This too will be re-evaluated as the situation calls for.
So, that's it. Pretty simple, I think. We help Vox now, we weigh the benefits later, we assess our needs and their needs based on the current situation, not on any formulas or anything ahead of time.
Furthermore, my understanding is that Vox is researching Engineering. I, for one, would like to get my hands on that. They have said they still owe us for the whole c+c/RP thing, so I think getting Engineering from them would be payment enough, yeah? With that being the case, it's in our interest to make sure Vox stays around long enough to give it to us. I'd imagine, with the war and all, probably at least 20-25 turns, which is quite reasonable. So, in the best possible scenario, we spend 100-200 gold, get engineering for free, get a world map, and get our money back! You can't beat that. Even in a worse scenario, we'll still at least get the tech and the map, and probably some cash.
So, there you have it. What do you all think? |
Well, I do not think this is what I am trying to arrange. This deal doesn't guarantee that Voxes will get the second half of the gold if they need it (we may - for whatever reason - decide we do not want to give them the second half of gold and that would be it...). This makes it difficult for them to plan, as the gold from us would not be guaranteed. OTOH, the idea of getting Engineering basically "for free" or in exchange for waiving a moderate part of the repayment is fine with me - if we are generous enough to forget some of our needs in order to accomodate Vox on gold, they should be generous enough to not try squeezing anything out for us for Engineering which we might have been able to get for C+C, if they hadn't messed in (though we should keep in mind that our deal with RPers was FAR from even "likely").
I would be perfectly okay with arranging a "loan frame" for them, up to 200 gold. They would be allowed to ask whenever they'd be in need of gold, loaning up to 200 gold in total. Repayment scheduled to start once the war is over or once they decide to, to be completed in no less than 20 turns, but no later than 40 turns from using the frame up (to make them more likely to use the loan frame only if really needed and not just taking all at once "just for sure"). Instead of an interest, we'd ask for their world map once the war is over (hoping they'd throw their current map in as a free extra, but not really asking for it, as it is of little value to us ATM). I would first just politely indicate we would "appreciate a lot" getting Engineering in some way as part of the deal... I believe they would be happy to throw it in (as they are undoubtedly going to sell it to Bobians, making some money out of it, while spending very little on the research). If not, we can then push them a bit, making it a request. But let's start carefully... whatever either party does without being pushed into is fine. Whatever either party does after being pushed into results in worse relations. And fine relations with a good ally is what I consider most important now.
Conditioning part of the loan (even if just "for ourselves") upon how Voxes do in the war within the next 5-10 turns is tricky. I don't think we'll have info enough to be able to determine who's likely to win. Not as early as the gold would probably be needed.
I don't think it is a good idea at this moment to mix in the first loan re-negotiation - that loan was clearly defined as far as the repayment period was concerned and it was also clear what it was for: Monotheism... btw, I would like to remind everybody that it was thanks to this deal we got 80 extra gold from GS for C+C, effectively making our "immediate price" of Monotheism 50 gold plus 70 gold loan (and there's still a very good chance we shall get 150 more gold back later on, effectively getting back more than we paid) - if that was not a bargain... it is not correct to bring this deal up again now and point at it saying: "look, they have already got a loan of 200 gold from us." That deal was made under conditions fine for both sides and didn't imply either party would "owe" anything special to the other one - beyond the timely repayment of 150 gold.
Oh... and btw... Tibi seems to be able to formulate my thoughts and approach better than I am. It is the grand scheme of things we shall consider now. Thanks, Tibi, I am getting too involved in arguments and counterarguments, forgetting that they are more or less totally irrelevant.
As for the amount itself... 200 gold is an amount that BetaHound mentioned (dunno if it was in a chat with Nimitz or me) as sufficient to ensure Voxes would be able to upgrade all of their warriors they will be able to build during their GA (which is the period they seem to believe will be enough to break the GS neck - and it sounds quite right to me). It is at the same time an amount I see as big enough to be considered a "major support"... appropriate to how Voxes approach and treat us now (did they need to tell us what the plans of the GoW+ND+Vox coalition were? did they have any need to offer us their world map for free? nope, all they needed to get the money was to trade Monotheism and now maybe the map & Engineering to us... and they would not have to pay anything back, at least for the second part, as we'd be happy to buy the map and Engineering for 200 gold).
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:26
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quote:
Well, I do not think this is what I am trying to arrange. |
I know this isn't what you're trying to arrange; nor is it what Sharpe is trying to arrange; that's the entire point. It's called a compromise.
It is quite clear that there is strong division over this issue, and I don't think that either side is going to back down very soon, hence we need to look for a solution that will satisfy everyone (or, at least, most people). Not everyone is going to get what they want, but that's the way things work in a compromise.
Let me put it another way; if this issue comes up for a vote, which seems highly likely, I would vote against your plan. I would also vote against Sharpe's plan. A vote would ultimately probably prove indecisive, with maybe a 1 or 2 vote victory on either side. That would solve absolutely nothing, as the losing side would feel unfairly treated and that would just lead to more trouble down the line.
If you look at the situation, we have incredibly good things going on in this game for us. We have a good solid tech lead, great land, a strong military, and a great industrial base. And yet, here we are arguing over this ****ing loan issue for almost two weeks now: that is pathetic. Everyone involved needs to suck it up, shut up, and start reaching a compromise. I don't mean to sound like a hard-ass, but I'm not going to let this team get any more divided over this. We have too great a potential to waste it over something as stupid as this.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Realizing we are discussing deal conditions without Voxes (which may be a waste of time if the conditions were not acceptable for them), I sent a PM to BetaHound, asking for a chat - and was lucky enough to catch him online later on. What I initially planned to be just a simple "only a couple of questions/clarifications" chat turned out into a lengthy discussion on various topics, including very long term plans. Unfortunately, I do not have time to comment on this today... add your comments first, please, I will add mine after I come back from the holidays. I need some time to think this over, too, anyway.
Part I
quote:
Session Start: Fri Apr 18 15:42:53 2003
Session Ident: BetaHound
vondrack: Hello, BetaHound!
BetaHound: Hiya.
vondrack: glad to catch you online - would love to chat a bit
vondrack: u have a couple of minutes?
BetaHound: Sounds good. How's life at Lego?
vondrack: Ahhh... turbulent times, you know that better than me...
BetaHound: Yes
vondrack: but we keep building peacefully...
BetaHound: which we envy
vondrack: yes, I understand - how's your war going on?
vondrack: I noticed a significant decrease in the amount of GS trash talking
BetaHound: So far so good. But ..
BetaHound: we are not yet into the thick of it.
vondrack: how long before you strike the first city?
vondrack: I noticed that even great Velociryx started to post... and in "little bit" different manner than his mates before... as if GS spotted more than just few of your immortals...
the session got interrupted here, because of Beta’s machine going off
Session Start: Fri Apr 18 15:55:13 2003
Session Ident: BetaHound1
vondrack: found you
BetaHound1: Sorry about that.
vondrack: hehe, no problem
vondrack: happened to me many times
vondrack: what was the last thing you heard from me?
BetaHound1: We have a wonky power supply - and everynow and then when the furnace kicks on the computer dies.
BetaHound1: And then when I got back on mIRC, BetaHound was still there - but it was not me. 
BetaHound1: You were asking about the war.
vondrack: so, how long to the first city?
BetaHound1: Turn after next.
vondrack: woo hoo, that's close
BetaHound1: But it will likely be two cities which go that turn.
vondrack: even better
vondrack: well
BetaHound1: One we raze, one we keep.
vondrack: things to talk about :
vondrack: we have been discussing the loan we were talking about before in our Lego forum
vondrack: and there seems to be a couple of issues we'd like to clarify before committing
BetaHound1: yes?
vondrack: first, let me explain our situation
vondrack: we do have some gold saved, but we will also need quite a fair amount of it to upgrade our military
vondrack: and to gold rush some key city improvement once we switch to Rep
vondrack: so, it's not like we could throw gold right and left...
BetaHound1: understood
vondrack: do you have an idea of how much gold you are going to need?
vondrack: perhaps even better - how much and WHEN
BetaHound1: We are generating a pretty good cash flow now for Immortal upgrades. It allows us to do one per turn - but we are pumping out warriors at the rate of two or three per turn.
vondrack: impressive
BetaHound1: 200-300 gold would allow us to hit GS with another sizeable stack - and take out more cities before their economy can really get into high military production.
BetaHound1: That would be required in about 2-4 turns. Maybe out as far as 6-8.
BetaHound1: Our entire economy right now is producing strictly military units.
vondrack: do you have any other source of gold you could use?
vondrack: if we were able to provide, say, 100 gold immediately and 100 more gold within a couple of turns?
BetaHound1: That would work as well.
vondrack: oh! that would be great... we have some needs we shall address first... but splitting the loan a bit would make it easier...
BetaHound1: The other sources we have are selling engineering to NeuD and RP, but both will be GPT sales - and won't be starting for 5-10 turns. But they will help cash flow.
vondrack: I understand, we would be the only non-gpt source
BetaHound1: yes.
vondrack: well, as I said, we'd probably be able to put 100 gold together at once
vondrack: and more 100 gold within about 7 turns
BetaHound1: But I do have a suggestion.
vondrack: yes?
BetaHound1:
BetaHound1: Your loans to-date have been interest free - which is greatly appreciated.
vondrack:
BetaHound1: And we both understand the world situation and why this is in your interests to help Vox.
vondrack: yes
BetaHound1: But - we can provide some form compensation.
vondrack: go ahead
BetaHound1: Vox will commit to giving you are world map this turn. I suspect you already know a lot about Bob, but this will outline Estonia to the extent that we know it. And it includes the GS territory currently discovered.
BetaHound1: We would also provided update maps as both Vox and GoW push into GS territory.
vondrack: that would be great - we would be able to "watch the war"
BetaHound1: Well - it doesn't have units on it, but we have discussed the matter within Vox, and we would also be willing to provided screenshots of the front.
BetaHound1: That has more of the action on it.
vondrack: if I understand it correctly, it effectively means that once the war was over, we'd have the map of you continent, right?
BetaHound1: yes.
vondrack: that sounds interesting...
vondrack: Legos are curious creatures
vondrack: not that we would plan to go there, but we like to know
BetaHound1: understood.
vondrack: ok, this sounds pretty fine - especially the updates part
BetaHound1: And yes - you would have a map of our continent.
BetaHound1: btw - we are NOT proposing a map trade here.
BetaHound1: We are not asking for Lego's map.
vondrack: yes, I understand - that would be not an option
vondrack: since we do not trade maps
vondrack: ever
BetaHound1: understood
vondrack: that also means that you can be sure your map will never get to anyone else (through us)
BetaHound1:
vondrack: now, what about your idea of the repayment time schedule?
vondrack: I know I am asking you to guess from a crystal ball...
BetaHound1: That depends on the war. If it goes as expected, we should be able to start turning cash to other purposes in the 20-30 turn range,
vondrack: yeah... that's is roughly what I expected
BetaHound1: btw -
BetaHound1: what got cut off when we were talking is why GS got quiet lately.
vondrack: aha?
BetaHound1: The larger stack of Immortals just showed up on the scene - I think it was a bit of an eye-opener for them.
BetaHound1: Up until then they figured the silly Voxians were coming at them with 5 Immortals and a handful of spearmen.
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: I would happily pay 50 bucks to be able to see their faces
BetaHound1: Their timing on feudalism was awkward - but our plan holds.
vondrack: yes, their research was a little bit faster than both of us would prefer
BetaHound1: Also - we figured we did everyone a favour by forcing them into producing the great lighthouse.
vondrack: oh, yes! )
vondrack: The Lighthouse! ))
vondrack: that was awesome
BetaHound1: I figure they wanted SunTzu's.
vondrack: or another of the fine early medieval wonders
vondrack: yes
vondrack: well, back to our business
BetaHound1: Ok - back to the loan.
BetaHound1: Another point.
vondrack: yes?
BetaHound1: Vox is willing to provide Engineering to Lego when it is complete.
BetaHound1: No charge or trade.
vondrack: oh, that sounds great
BetaHound1: That is in recognition of your support, as well as cementing future plans.
vondrack: I am actually happy you said that
vondrack: there were some sentiments related to a deal we lost (C+C with RPers)
vondrack: and this would be a very fine compensation - certainly a "relations cementer" ))
BetaHound1: Understood.
BetaHound1: Yes - we felt awkward about the C+C thing as well.
vondrack: well, I guess this pretty much covers our concerns
vondrack: I actually was not fast enough to type the whole line about
vondrack: us being somehow able to finance our plans even with providing the loan to you
vondrack: on one condition: not having to buy techs
BetaHound1: yes - makes sense.
vondrack: and if we are able to secure Engineering this way, it should work
BetaHound1: Great!
BetaHound1: It is still 30 turns out though. Low research rate.
vondrack: yes, I know - not a problem for us
vondrack: we follow a different branch
vondrack: well, fine... I shall report all this to my fellow Legos and I hope to be able to get back to you very soon
BetaHound1: Regarding the war - I forgot to mention that GoW's galleys start moving into position this turn as well.
vondrack: oh, that's great! so they are sticking to their promises... great
BetaHound1: yes - so far - although they are also gearing up their military.
BetaHound1: As are RP and NeuD
vondrack: hmmm... any idea which direction they all are staring at?
BetaHound1: The Bobians? Well - that is a good question. Shall we discuss world politics for a bit?
vondrack: that may be a good idea
vondrack: the medieval times are going to be violent, no doubt
BetaHound1: yes - the game will not last too long I figure. |
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Part II
quote:
BetaHound1: OK - here goes.
vondrack: ok, listening
BetaHound1: GoW and NeuD were clearly on-side with us attacking GS. They played along with the ruse - and GoW will be aiding militarily.
BetaHound1: btw - we have traded maps with GoW.
vondrack:
vondrack: so you can see us now
vondrack: at least a bit of us
BetaHound1: yes
BetaHound1: And the long term goals of the 'lesser' civs was to bring down the stronger civs, in this order:
BetaHound1: GS
BetaHound1: RP
BetaHound1: Lego
BetaHound1:
vondrack: the first two ones are fine
BetaHound1: understood
vondrack: the last one sucks
vondrack:
BetaHound1: agreed
BetaHound1: And I suspect they may actually be happy of GS and Vox just beat themselves to pulp in this war.
BetaHound1: Which may happen.
vondrack: hmmm... that is a possibility (that they would like to see it)
vondrack: as much as we would like to see THEM do the same
BetaHound1: Now - I think GoW would like it best if they and NeuD took out RP.
BetaHound1: The original plan was that that would occur after we had finished off GS, and could help.
vondrack: yep, that's what I thought was the plan
BetaHound1: But GoW is not 'rushing' to help us. In fact they paid GS 200 gold for feudalism
BetaHound1: Which we knew about.
vondrack: bummer
BetaHound1: yes. But if we want GoW's help - they need to get something out of it. They are opportunistic.
vondrack: yeah, I can imagine that
vondrack: they are mercenaries, after all
BetaHound1: yes - they are.
vondrack: will they at least give it to you?
vondrack: or trade
BetaHound1: in 10 turns. They want to respect the deal with GS. ???? Noble but misplaced if you ask me.
vondrack: Jesus... that really is a twisted sense of honour )
BetaHound1: So - I suspect you are safe for awhile - but I would not spend too much time worrying about cultural improvements.
vondrack: yep
vondrack: you suggest that we may be next, instead of RPers?
BetaHound1: no - RP is next. Pretty sure of it.
BetaHound1: But be prepared.
vondrack: understood
BetaHound1: And - I would like to propose a possible end-game scenario.
vondrack: oh, yes, let's bring it on ) End game scenario - I love that...
BetaHound1: Well - we get the upper hand with GS and hopefully put them away -
vondrack: that's what we both hope for
BetaHound1: Then the plan is NeuD and GoW and Vox go after RP.
vondrack: hmmm... I can already hear RPers screaming for our help...
BetaHound1: Which - depending on the timing - we will assist.
BetaHound1: sort of
BetaHound1:
vondrack: yeah... like GoW is helping you with GS now, right?
BetaHound1: Because - what I can see then is Vox turning its military towards Bob, as would Lego - and just when GoW and NeuD have crushed RP and hopefully beat themselves up in the process - we crash into them and finish the game!!
BetaHound1: It's beautiful.
vondrack: it is
BetaHound1: With two civs left - you will no doubt be stronger - we let you finish in first place.
BetaHound1: And we turn BOB into a wild-life sanctuary.
BetaHound1:
vondrack: wild-life sanctuary!
vondrack: yes!
vondrack: you seem to be happy enough with taking out GS...
vondrack: but I understand that
vondrack: and this grand plan will forever be yours
BetaHound1:
BetaHound1: Thanks - I'm a tree hugger.
vondrack: LoL
BetaHound1: Save the pandas!
BetaHound1: And the amazon rain forest.
BetaHound1:
BetaHound1: Besides, with only two teams - the game will lose players and interest. Better to start a second one then.
vondrack: yes, agreed
vondrack: well, all this sounds great... but I suspect we will see cavalry until it is over
BetaHound1: Likely.
vondrack: perhaps that would be the best moment
vondrack: get ahead research-wise
vondrack: get cavalry first
BetaHound1: Yes - to avoid them having the UU advantage.
vondrack: and hit Bob with a technically superior military
vondrack: yep
vondrack: now, tell me one thing
BetaHound1: yes?
vondrack: why do you want to ally/win with Lego? and not, e.g., GoW or ND?
BetaHound1: A couple of reasons.
vondrack: Ah, fine... I was afraid there would be just one
BetaHound1: One is you.
BetaHound1: Vox trusts you.
vondrack: oh, this is an honour
vondrack: thank you
vondrack: I mean it
BetaHound1: A second is that we figure GoW and NeuD will not be happy with two civs left standing. Even if one of them is willing to concede first place.
vondrack: hmmm... yes, they are no tree-huggers, admittedly
BetaHound1: A third is geography.
vondrack: makes sense, yes
BetaHound1: We have the advantage of having Bob in between us - which allows this opportunity.
vondrack: yeah... whomever they attack, they will have the other one attacking their rear
vondrack: two front wars
BetaHound1: And a fourth - is the way the political situation in this game has evolved.
vondrack: ?
BetaHound1: We do NOT trust RP - but we work with them. BTW - Vox is going to convert to catholicism to help seal a deal.
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: you will be a catholic tree-hugger then...
BetaHound1: NeuD is almost unreadable which is scary.
BetaHound1: GS - is well - GS. Enough said.
vondrack: yes, our impression as well (ND+GS)
BetaHound1: And GoW - well - as you put it - they are mercenaries.
BetaHound1: I respect the way they have played the game.
vondrack: agreed about GoW
BetaHound1: But I wouldn't want to climb into bed with them.
vondrack: while you want to climb in bed with us? )
vondrack: j/k
BetaHound1: Tiberius - yum...
vondrack: LoL
BetaHound1: It's the dog in me.
vondrack: I will have to cut this out... or he would not vote for the plan
BetaHound1: LoL!!!
vondrack: well, thanks for all this
vondrack: I am now having a much better idea about what, when, where, and WHY
BetaHound1: yes - thanks. Good chat. Hope this helps with where Vox is at in the short and long term.
vondrack: I think this is a lot of information and plans
BetaHound1: yes - a lot.
vondrack: and I shall better pass that to my teammates before going any further
vondrack: there is more than One Voice in Lego )
BetaHound1: And we cannot get too far ahead of ourselves - as we do have GS to contend with - and damn, they're good.
BetaHound1: yes - understood.
vondrack: are they?
vondrack: well, they better should be...
vondrack:
BetaHound1: well - they think a lot.
BetaHound1: I don't think they ever really figured out that this is a MP game.
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: yes, we often get the same impression
BetaHound1: Just another SP game with slightly smarter AI.
vondrack: very slightly, yes
BetaHound1: But not that much smarter.
vondrack: LoL
BetaHound1: LoL
vondrack: well, I won't keep you any longer - business stuff calling for me as well
vondrack: wish you good luck
BetaHound1: OK - yes - please discuss with your team.
vondrack: and hope to chat again soon
vondrack: take care, Beta
BetaHound1: And you too.
vondrack: talk to you soon (leaving for Easter holidays though)
vondrack: bye
BetaHound1: bye |
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Sharpe
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Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:26
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Ok, I have read through the Betahound chat.
Beta seems reasonable and I get the feeling that he seems to have a grasp on some of the concerns that I have been raising.
Vox does seem to want us as an ally and it is in their best interests that we are strong. I really like his proposal re maps now and screenshot updates and map after the war.
That being said - I would prefer 200 gold at max over time - unless they run into real trouble. 300 gold is probably out of the question given our needs.
Also, I don't believe for one minute about his long range plans - if they see a chance to win, they will go for it - Lego or no Lego alliance. So I would be a little wary about totally trusting Vox - they can easily backstab us - especially when they see how big our landmass really is - however, Beta did seem thrilled when Nimitz told him that we have 11 cities (Yee haw, was his reaction IIRC ).
Re: the long range plans of the RP war (assuming that my info isn't correct that we are in fact next) - I am not sure whether we should let GoW + ND completely destroy RP before intervening. In fact, I would almost suggest that we should intervene when they are deep in RP territory but RP is still relatively intact - but damaged, perhaps badly damaged. Then we either hit the ND+GoW core areas or join with RP to drive GoW + ND back. RP would still be devastated by the war and would surely ally with us against the other Bob civs making the destruction of GoW and ND that much quicker. But would be way too weak to challenge the Vox-Lego alliance and we could gain control of Bob. We could always finish RP off later...
So in summary, my view of Vox trades:
1) 100-120 gold to Vox when they ask for it and they give us their map in return (if not sooner)
2) up to 100 gold later (say in up to 10 turns or when we have received the 50 gold from RP)
3) Get screen updates of the war from Vox
4) They agree to repay the loans when the war is nearing its end or at its end and within 20 to 30 turns.
5) They give us Engineering when they research it
6) They give us a complete Estonian map when available.
7) We can discuss trading them tech to keep them up to speed at a later point.
8) We should build up more defenses and units to be wary of possible GoW + ND action against us.
Yes, good job in discussing it with Beta, Radek - it did clear up some issues.
Last edited by Sharpe on 18-04-2003 at 21:36
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
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I'd like to step in, this time as the minister of science and economy, if that is worth something. As such, it is my duty to judge, and judge well trade proposals. If this doesn't worth anything, than as a simple Lego citizen, even though lately I don't feel so good being one.
I'd like to apologize from the very beginning, should I offend someone, but these "negotiations" (between us) are starting to bother me more and more.
Think a little bit what Vox are offering to us, what they did so far and what are we are offering to them:
We:
- 100 gold now
- 100 gold (max) in 10 turns, as a loan
They:
- destroying/weakening GS, our greatest tech rival
- forced GS to abandon a wonder, maybe one that we will build in the end
- give us their WM now, when the war is over again, plus war updates/info
- offered us a grand alliance and seem to be honest about it, something that no one offered to us until now (the RP did, but we know how much it does worth)
- they are offering to repay the loan
- they'd give us Engineering for free
I don't count the previous deal, because that was a separate deal for Monotheirm. Besides they don't owe us with the C&C deal, that was GS's fault, they were the one who didn't include a no-whoring clause, so legally Vox didn't do anything wrong.
Do you feel this right? Do you feel OK with it? Because I feel ashamed that we are trying to profit from them as we are. Remember how GS tried to rip us off with the C&C deal and how offended we felt about it? Do you still remember how much are GS asking for Feudalism?
Think a little bit. Just imagine how much would GS ask for what Vox are offering to us. 100 gold + a 100 gold loan??? One must be extremely naive to believe that they wouldn't ask for at least the double or triple that sum. When forming an alliance with GS, do you think they would accept us as even partners, or treat us like their slaves?
We can obtain here an alliance that could lead us in the end game, with only 2 strong teams left, we and Vox. Isn't this our goal? To survive until the finish, and then win, if possible not by military means? This is a chance to win the game and I don't really remember when did I have last time the chance to win a game with a few gold extra. I'm not saying that everything will be perfect, but this is a very good chance, we shouldn't let it pass by arguing over a few gold.
I don't agree, I repeat: I do not agree with such a treaty, because it is so unfair to our trading partner, that it would seriously hinder our reputation as good traders, and I can't accept that.
I still don't understand what the problem is? With GS gone, we can lower our tech research and use the gold to build our infrastructure and finance our military. We have 500 gold. What are we going to do with it in the next 10-15 turns, until we switch to Republic?
None of you argued against trading Theo+Edu with GoW for Feud+Chivalry, even though the difference between the techs is 480 beakers. Why didn't you argue then that we need that money? Why didn't you push for a gold compensation from GoW?
You were complaining that we are losing friends, and now you are aginst gaining one? Gold is not as important as the frienship and gratitude of our allies, so let not throw it away.
I will make shortly my trade proposal, and I hope it will be accepted, because otherwise I will "not sign" it. Since I am the minister in charge, no trade proposal will go through without my approval, which means that either I accept/approve it, or I resign.
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
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Here are my proposals.
These proposals are not even slightly as advantageous to Vox as our proposal to GoW, so please, comment it thinking not only on how much money we are giving away. All the money we are offering is worth 3 or 4 turns of research stop from us.
Besides, if we want Vox to win the war, we have to finance them, or we might very well lose all of it. We may gain 50 gold on the short term and lose 300 on the long run. This is a unique chance to get rid of our bigest economic competitor, and this was our goal from the beginning, to be the most powerful economical power around, was it not? So we either help them with full steam or better stop now and don't help them at all. This isn't a good moment for compromises.
quote:
Lego-Vox trade proposal
1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.
2. Lego pays 100 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns
3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 100 gold now. Vox starts repaying it in 20-30 turns from now, in an amount of 5 gpt, for 20 turns.
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Alternative proposal:
quote:
Lego-Vox trade proposal
1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.
2. Lego pays 150 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns
3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 100 gold on turn 102. (when we we get the money from RP). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after they get the loan, in an amount of 6 gpt, for 20 turns.
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Note: The sum is bigger with the amount we get from RP, and Vox is supposed to pay back 120, instead of only 100. This is my personal favourite, because we give them enough money now, some more in a 7 turns, which is within Vox's timeframe, and we get more money back
Yet another one:
quote:
Lego-Vox trade proposal
1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.
2. Lego pays 120 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns
3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 120 gold on turn 102. (when we we get the money from RP). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after they get the loan, in an amount of 6 gpt, for 20 turns.
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Some issues are of course open to debate, like when to start paying the gpt (in 20 turns, or when the war is over, etc) or do we want only gpt ...
I'd let them choose between the proposals.
If I was playing alone, I'd sacrifice more money for such an opportunity, so take these proposals as a compromise from me.
Last edited by Tiberius on 19-04-2003 at 14:23
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
1) We don't give Theology to them until after we get Engineering - Though truthfully they would probably be MUCH more interested in Education due to the universities. Don't forget that they OWE us for the RP C&C situation |
But not too much. They didn't sign any no-whoring clause when they bought C&C. It was GS who didn't respect their part of the deal; they should have included the clause in their trade with Vox, which they didn't.
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4) Repayment - the lower payment would be for the map, the higher payment would be a loan - Don't forget that they sold their world map to GS for 95 gold - why should we pay much more than that? |
Because they are giving us 2 world maps, one now and one again when the war is over, plus the war updates and screenshots. (all these worth ~120 gold, IMHO)
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We should get 20 gold in interest on the loan (1 more gold per turn) that we can refund later back to them if we want as a sign of good faith - or as part of a later tech trade. |
We can ask for 1 or 2 gpt as a profit for us, but only if we grant them more money. Giving them a loan of, say, 200 gold would be a bigger risk for us, plus we should stop our reseach for 3 turns, thus we could ask for a small interest. But I already mentioned this when I favoured the 2nd proposal.
Please everybody speak up, so that we could decide this in 1 or max. 2 turns.
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:26
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I propose an alternative version of #2 (addition italicized, removals struck out):
quote:
Lego-Vox trade proposal
1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.
2. Lego pays 150 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns
3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 100 gold on turn 102. (when we we get the money from RP). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after they get the loan, in an amount of 6 5 gpt, for 20 turns.
4. Lego agrees to gift Theology to Vox upon request, urging Vox not to request it until they need it for Education, in order to make it difficult for any other team trying to research it on their own. Vox agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel, and to not trade it to any team unless that team also agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel as part of the trade. |
Basically, I want to ensure our Sistine dominance as much as possible. If you think the added conditions on Theology are too much, remember that Vox can request Theology at any time, and is also in a better position to trade it around due to no no-whore clause after that - we will merely request some Sistine dominance in return.
Edit: And I forgot - Happy Easter.
Edit: Also, Sharpe just said in chat he'd prefer 120 as the payment. This would be fine with me; the Sistine clause is more important to me than the specific money/loan variant we use.
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
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The no-Sistine clause is a very good idea, Kloreep  However I insist that now, with us asking even more from Vox for a small loan, to grant Vox a bigger loan. It'd agree on 120 gold on turn 97 (for the map part) and 120 as a loan on turn 102.
Man, think: we are accepting a tech trade with GoW with a difference of 480 in their favour, asking only for a no-Sistine and no-Bach's clause, and yet we fail to give Voxes the half of it, not even as a loan, in better conditions for us ? Why?
quote:
Lego-Vox trade proposal
1. Vox agrees to gift Engineering to Lego on the turn it becomes available for Vox. Lego agrees on a 20 turns "no-whoring" clause.
2. Lego agrees to gift Theology to Vox upon request, urging Vox not to request it until they need it for Education, in order to make it difficult for any other team trying to research it on their own. Vox agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel, and to not trade Theology to any team unless that team also agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel as part of the trade.
3. Lego agrees to pay 120 gold to Vox on turn 97 (Vox receives it on turn 98). Vox gifts Lego their WM on turn 98, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports and screenshots every 3 (??) turns.
4. Lego grants Vox a loan of 120 gold on turn 102 (Vox receives on turn 103). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after turn 103, in an amount of 6 gpt, for 20 turns.
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18-04-2003 02:27
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