26-03-2003 04:55									#31
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Well, perhaps we can reach a compromise. What if we were just to give them a map of a section of Bob? Say, I don't know... maybe just ND's territory? As the RPers don't seem to really be behind this war, I don't think we should hand over a map of their territory just yet. And, on a more basic level, right now we are the only team with a a full map of two continents. Once we give it to Vox, it's out of our hands; GS could get it. I don't think that's really a strategic advantage we should give away so quickly. This is an issue that could still use some discussion, I think.

	26-03-2003 05:27									#32
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I'm afraid it IS out of our hands. Here's an excerpt of the chat we just had in IRC:

quote: Sharpe> Sigh, if you insist , I will call for a vote vondrack> vote on me? Sharpe> vote on map vondrack> or on the deal? vondrack> ok Sharpe> if we get invaded, then you... Sharpe> vondrack> you better call the vote on me, Steve Sharpe> sigh Sharpe> I don't want to call a vote on you, I want this map idea scrapped Sharpe> or at least delayed until we see how things are going vondrack> seeing only you opposing the map part in the forum, I have already sent the map to BetaHound as a sign of good will - that's why you should call the vote on me

I must say I'm very unhappy with this. We gave the map to Vox without even signing the treaty, WHICH HAS A NICE SECRECY CLAUSE. Until we sign, they could give the map to anyone, tell anyone, and not disobey the letter of the treaty when it is signed. This is NOT good.

Edit: Can't get the names to show.

	26-03-2003 06:10									#33
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I agree - this is very disturbing.

As I said in the post, I wanted to call a vote on it - but clearly it would now be a moot point. I was so opposed to trading the map that earlier on in the chat, when Vondrack insisted on trading the map, I said that I would resign as MA as I can't support that decision on such a major issue. Besides of which, we didn't trade the world map so the other civs can even accuse us of cheating.

Kloreep brought up a good point in that chat - what happens if Vox is destroyed and then joins the other civs as refugees ? Our double-crossing of the Bob civs would not be appreciated. The tech issue is minor - we are simply trying to get Monotheism from Vox to take advantage of their scientific trait - likely so are the other civs. But the map is a matter of security for the Bob civs as much our map is for us - this would be no laughing matter to them.

Clearly a vote on the map is useless now as Vondrack has sent it to them "as a sign of good faith". Without a treaty signed it seems to me that Vondrack has exceeded his authority in doing that as I didn't even get a chance to call for a vote on the map issue.

For the moment I am NOT resigning as MA, but I will have to think about it and other matters.

Last edited by Sharpe on 26-03-2003 at 06:20

	26-03-2003 06:34									#34
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Well... seems like the map, which I considered just a nice little touch to the whole Mono deal, is actually stirring a lot of emotions. Let me clarify a couple of points I was considering when sending the map ahead of signing the deal:

1) it is vitally important for Voxes to assess their situation as soon as possible and as accurately as possible. With the map, they can do it very well, possibly withdrawing from Bob, if they come to the conclusion their position is untenable. This would undoubtedly save everyone a big headache... and us a lot of money, as we will shortly have 150 gold deposited with them. If Voxes get eliminated, there go our money. The map very much improves the chances of Voxes to assess the situation and act accordingly & appropriately, just like it improves their chances to make the life of Bobians more difficult.

2) you do not make this kind of deals to abuse them by "spreading the map around", saying "the deal has not been signed yet, your fault you gave it to us before signing". I made it very clear to BetaHound he was supposed to keep the source of the map as secret as possible. There is a certain fundamental level of mutual trust needed to even propose a deal like that. This level of trust implies - at least for me - that it is ok to do what I did without having to fear Voxes revealing the deal, "because of having it not signed yet."

3) All the Bobians have this map, so the only team that might actually be interested in acquiring it would be GS. I see absolutely no reason why Voxes should ever share the map with GS... but even if! Do you think that GS would EVER let Bobians know? Throwing away such a CRUCIAL strategic advance? Nope! This map, when in the hands of Voxes and even GS, serves us a great purpose: makes Bob a juicy target for Estonians, a target much more viable than the totally unknown Lego.

4) As one of the arguments I heard later on was "what if Voxes are eliminated, their members join other teams and this deal "leaks out", I would like to point out that eliminating Voxes is at this point very difficult - only GS may actually be in a position to do so... but trying to seize a single-tile chokepoint shall be so costly against immos that I can really see no real threat of that happening. And if it happens in 50 turns? By that time, all the other teams will have much more important reasons to side with us or against us.

That said, if majority feels I did more than I was allowed to, exceeding my authority, and wishes me to step down, I am ready to do so. Knowing how much troubles this thing brought in, I might have waited a bit before sending the map off, but I would have still insisted on providing it to Voxes, as I strongly believe it is in our best interest to do so.

	26-03-2003 06:52									#35
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I do agree that the map might cause Vox to reassess things and withdraw seeing how much they are outnumbered.

However, the smallest and probably most vulnerable cities of GoW and ND are in the east, nearest to the Vox city - they could decide to go after those cities - and if they do so it is very likely that the Bob civs will figure out that Vox has their map. Since none of them has traded it to Vox or GS, but has to us, and since it is definitely in none of their interests to trade the Bob map with Vox, they will know it was us.

It seems as though ND is seeing blood, so unless Vox turns the city over to them, I doubt the war will end - admittedly both GS and RP seem reluctant at best. GoW likes war so it hard to tell where they truly stand ...

Radek, none of us want you to resign but there has to be more consultation with the rest of us. As I said in the chat, I didn't want to vote against you, just against that map idea.

Just because 2 people who are in the chat agree with you doesn't mean that the rest will and it is possible that one of those not present at the chat would make an observation or two that could change everyone's minds. We have to have more discussion in the thread and actual votes on things - we have hardly any at all right now.

As for the urgency of the situation, I would be surprised if even GoW's horses could reach the Vox city in less than 2 or 3 turns.

EDIT 11pm est:
regarding Vondrack's comment about the unlikelihood of Vox being eliminated. If the 3 civs remain at war with Vox - Vox will be eliminated - immortals are not invulnerable, neither are our mercs. Plus we are approaching a new era where knights and soon med infantry can easily match up with immortals. Plus Vox is the smallest civ in score by a big margin - numbers may be on the Bob civs side.

The only thing that Vox has going for it is that there is a lack of ports facing their side and probably no or few galley to transport the troops.

Last edited by Sharpe on 26-03-2003 at 09:10

	26-03-2003 07:05									#36
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I would also like to say that I am upset about the map being given away without a full discussion, for the reasons I mentioned above. More than anything else, it was a tactical advantage that we have now shared with another team without fully analyzing it fully.

That being said, I do not think it is necessary for you to step down, Vondrack, nor would I support any call for you do to so. You do an excellent job as president, and that is certain. However, I am worried about the breakdown of our system of negotiations. Too many negotiations are going on in imprompteu chats that many in the team are not aware of. We have ambassadors and a Foreign Minister for a reason; currently those positions are not being utilitzed properly. I think it may be time to re-establish our diplomatic system, and start dealing and communicating via ambassador only. Information slips out here and there in random chats, and while it may seem like idle chatter, it can be things that that not everyone on the team would like divulged.

I would propose the following:

-First of all, the FA establishes a list of "approved" items that anyone can discuss with other teams. That way if someone from a team messages you or meets you in a chat, you don't have to be completely silent with them. If they broach a topic not on the list, simply say "I cannot comment." They will understand; every team does it.
-Deals should only be discussed by appropriate ambassadors or the FA. If you are not an amb, and someone mentions a deal, just tell them the amb will contact them shortly.
-I know the issue of time is important, so I might suggest that we re-assign ambassadors to people who know they can be available almost all of the time. Everyone knows there availability, so we may need to re-assign some positions.
-NOTHING is sent to other teams without team approval. If no one objects, that equals approval. If even one person objects; convince them. If they aren't convinced, hold a vote. That's worked for us for many other areas, why not this one?

That's my thoughts on the subject. I know they may seem a little stringent, but I feel it is very important we deal with this issue now.

And if the map issue comes back to bite us in the ass, well we'll deal with that when the time comes.

	26-03-2003 07:43									#37
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I agree with Zargon that the diplomatic system does need to be revised - it does appear that the system of ambassadors and the Foreign Minister is not being used properly or is out-of-touch with what we need to use.

To be honest, I felt that way about most of the ministerial positions - that's one of the reasons I ran for office this time. Because the game is getting increasingly complex, the powers and work of the ministers have to increase - if for nothing else than to keep Vondrack sane with all of the work to be done (I mean that list of suggestions of what to do each turn is just getting longer and longer) That is not to say that the ministers weren't going to increase their workload anyway of course.

I also agree with Zargon that we need to have open discussions and votes if even one person opposes it - the team has shrunk enough that even one person is a significant minority here... We especially need votes for issues that are external since they can't be reversed like internal matters can.

	26-03-2003 11:29									#38
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Unbelieveable, after I posted a thread reminding Vondrack that this is a democracy he goes and makes the deal. Maybe he thought we were the RP team. From the tone of the chat log, I was afraid something like this would happen.

Bobians will find out that we gave Vox the map. That is my fearless prediction. Either someone with Vox or one of us will have a side discussion (purely confidential of course) and it will all come around. That's human nature; we want to show off our secret knowledge. I just hope it's not for a few centuries and it won't matter anymore.

This a serious breach of our democracy, but is forgiveable. My ranting is over and I support Vondrack as president.

	26-03-2003 12:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Too many negotiations are going on in imprompteu chats that many in the team are not aware of. We have ambassadors and a Foreign Minister for a reason; currently those positions are not being utilitzed properly. ... I think it may be time to re-establish our diplomatic system, and start dealing and communicating via ambassador only.

First of all, I am the ambassador to Vox and I was in the chatroom. Second, this is not always doable: I for instance don't have that much "online time", so to speak, hence our arragement with Vondrack: I handle the PMs with Vox and he handles the chats. There are deals that simply cannot be achieved via PMs. Chats are a very-very good tool to prepare treaties and break the ice; obviuously we have to finalize the final drafts later offline and make them official in PM exchanges.

quote: Information slips out here and there in random chats, and while it may seem like idle chatter, it can be things that that not everyone on the team would like divulged. ... First of all, the FA establishes a list of "approved" items that anyone can discuss with other teams. That way if someone from a team messages you or meets you in a chat, you don't have to be completely silent with them. If they broach a topic not on the list, simply say "I cannot comment." They will understand; every team does it.

This is a good idea. The FA should prepare a guidline, what is secret, what is not, etc. Kind of like my Enlightened thread, where I have in the first post a list of the active trade clauses we have to follow.

quote: -Deals should only be discussed by appropriate ambassadors or the FA. If you are not an amb, and someone mentions a deal, just tell them the amb will contact them shortly.

The ambassador, the FA or the President. I think all of these should have negotiatopn rights.

quote: -I know the issue of time is important, so I might suggest that we re-assign ambassadors to people who know they can be available almost all of the time. Everyone knows there availability, so we may need to re-assign some positions.

Good idea. Candidates?

quote: NOTHING is sent to other teams without team approval. If no one objects, that equals approval. If even one person objects; convince them. If they aren't convinced, hold a vote. That's worked for us for many other areas, why not this one?

I agree.

	26-03-2003 12:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops Bobians will find out that we gave Vox the map. That is my fearless prediction.

So what? Where does it say that we can't give it? We didn't break any treaty, what's the problem?

	26-03-2003 12:29									#41
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The map is a huge advantage for Vox and this is good. This is why we gave it to them. We need the small teams to survive. We can't win this game fighting against one strong warmonger team, I hope you know that? Civ3 is just better suited for a warlike approach. I know that from my games. I am always more succesful when I go and fight instead of just build; always.

We are a builder team in this game and if we want to win it we need to keep a balance between teams as much as possible and as long as possible, because otherwise we won't win! We might have t take some risks from time to time to help the small ones, but this is what we must do. We need the small teams, we need a balance of power, I can't emphisize this enough. We also need to keep the world divided and not united against us. This is why we wanted to help Lux and this is why we prefer to help a bit GoW and not RP or ND

This being said, probably Vondrack should have waited our approval to give them the map, but I'd have fighted to give Voxes the map.

	26-03-2003 14:14									#42
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Guys I say we calm down here. All we have done is shared intelligence with a civ in trouble and trying to catch up with the rest of us. I have intelligence sources who tell me things that help us, like what teams are researching and even what they are building in their cities. I couldn probably get a map of Estonia if I asked nicely.

The way I see it, we are handing Vox a lifeline. If they get sent back to Estonia without a fight then that only strengthens GS. If they remain on Bob then that only stunts the 3 Bobians. Either way it helps us.

Lets be clear about it. We haven't given away any resources, we haven't put ourselves in danger. It can't be tr\ced back to us unless Vondrack wrote 'From Lego with Love' in 5 foot letters all over the map. Perhaps we should have had a vote, but afiak noone called for one. I'd have done the same myself in Vondrack's position. Remember we don't actually have any tech deals signed sealed and delivered yet. The map was a sweetner in an already good deal for us.

As for the changes to procedure... perhaps something needs to be done. Certainly I've been conduction diplomatic discussions and I have no official role. I don't mind but I feel its not fair on the relevant ambassador who probably feels left out.

Almost everything done by this team has majority support of the team. I beleive the map deal is one of them. Maybe we should have had a poll about it but its a bit late now. I suggest in future that if anyone has any doubt over an issue, call for a poll. That gives 3 days more discussion on it before the votes are needed.

	26-03-2003 14:26									#43
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Well said, redstar.

	26-03-2003 15:07									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As I said in the post, I wanted to call a vote on it - but clearly it would now be a moot point. I was so opposed to trading the map that earlier on in the chat, when Vondrack insisted on trading the map, I said that I would resign as MA as I can't support that decision on such a major issue. Besides of which, we didn't trade the world map so the other civs can even accuse us of cheating.

Cheating? Why would anyone want to accuse us of cheating? Trading maps is completely legal - it was from the very beginning (minimaps) and I see absolutely no reason why trading partial maps should be "cheating". There is no rule saying that if trading maps, it must be world maps, that I am sure of.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Kloreep brought up a good point in that chat - what happens if Vox is destroyed and then joins the other civs as refugees ? Our double-crossing of the Bob civs would not be appreciated. The tech issue is minor - we are simply trying to get Monotheism from Vox to take advantage of their scientific trait - likely so are the other civs. But the map is a matter of security for the Bob civs as much our map is for us - this would be no laughing matter to them.

This is certainly a valid point that needs to be addressed. I have already explained I do not really see Voxes wiped out any time soon, but even if... let's try to see things clearly: trading Mono with Voxes for a war loan of 200 gold in the moment they can use it to upgrade 5 warriors to immortals (hope I do have my numbers right here) would certainly be perceived as "siding with Voxes", no matter what. Or, at least, as unscrupulously ignoring the matters of Bobians' security in an effort to strike a good deal of our own. If we throw in the map of Bob, which we were perfectly free to throw in, as no clause has ever bound us to keep it for ourselves, this would hardly change how Bobians would feel about our involvement in this incident. Our relations with them would suffer, that's for sure. The only difference might be the actual level of the deterioration of our relations - and that, I believe, would be small to negligible.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I do agree that the map might cause Vox to reassess things and withdraw seeing how much they are outnumbered.

I believe it was in the chat with BetaHound where he mentioned that Voxes are very well prepared to wage war and even if they might have look "off balanced", they were in fact very well aware of what they were doing. Actually, I believe that the map will tell them to KEEP pushing for their Bobian settlements. The map in fact shows that neither of the Bobians civs is actually able to wage war against them effectively - Spaniards are badly overstretched, plus having free land enough. GoW is stretched in the W-E direction as well, just like ND. All of the Bobian teams will/would have difficult time traversing the continent with their units - unlike Voxes that will be reinforcing their military across a single-tile strait, having their capital four tiles away.

Voxes do know that they are behind in the number of cities and total territory. What they did not know was that in fact, this had very little to do with what their chances of waging war with Bobians were. Now they know.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe However, the smallest and probably most vulnerable cities of GoW and ND are in the east, nearest to the Vox city - they could decide to go after those cities - and if they do so it is very likely that the Bob civs will figure out that Vox has their map. Since none of them has traded it to Vox or GS, but has to us, and since it is definitely in none of their interests to trade the Bob map with Vox, they will know it was us.

Sorry, this is just plain paranoid, Steve. Voxes landed on the easternmost tip of Bob. They have nowhere to go, but to the West. So seeing them heading West would hardly be any sign of "having a map". The only thing that might lead Bobians to even remotely think about whether it could be possible for Voxes to have a (partial) map would be if they went straight for the iron resources. But even then, Luxes would be the very first to become suspected - their affair with Voxes is well known (since Voxes did so much for them in the beginning... who knows what the ACTUAL price of that lifesaving belt might have been...). The lack of Map Making was actually not a problem, they were able to provide an outgame image... just like what we did now. And Luxes knew PERFECTLY where the key resources were - they warred over them.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe It seems as though ND is seeing blood, so unless Vox turns the city over to them, I doubt the war will end - admittedly both GS and RP seem reluctant at best. GoW likes war so it hard to tell where they truly stand ...

Who says the war should end? Yes, ND is keen to fight Voxes, But as you said, GS & RPers are very reluctant to intervene and GoW is actually trying to make the most of this situation, negotiating peace for a valuable compensation (GF PMed me, offering to trade Mono to us, which they were "probably supposed to get together with resale rights for not wiping Voxes off"). Both GoW and RPers would like to see ND weakened, there is little doubt about it. Ceding the easternmost part of Bob to Voxes in exchange for having ND leave the scene would certainly look like a viable deal to them... that's why I strongly believe the war will not be short at all and that Bobians are highly unlikely to truly unite against Voxes.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe As for the urgency of the situation, I would be surprised if even GoW's horses could reach the Vox city in less than 2 or 3 turns.

It is not the threat of GoW horses reaching the Vox city (for that, Voxes do not really need any map). It is the urgent need to know what the military capabilities and geographical distribution of GoW, ND, and RPers are - this is invaluable in considering whom to appease and whom to fight. And this is what is being decided during these very turns.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe regarding Vondrack's comment about the unlikelihood of Vox being eliminated. If the 3 civs remain at war with Vox - Vox will be eliminated - immortals are not invulnerable, neither are our mercs. Plus we are approaching a new era where knights and soon med infantry can easily match up with immortals. Plus Vox is the smallest civ in score by a big margin - numbers may be on the Bob civs side.

I do not see how 3 civs remaining at war actually affect things in any way... 3 civs ACTUALLY FIGHTING might be a different thing, but I do not see that happening. And you certainly realize that the score is far from accurately depicting your actual military strength. Imagine Voxes have a couple of Warriors waiting for upgrades (that's quite likely what they need our money for). One turn and their military changes from "weak" to "strong"... Plus, as you correctly pointed out, Bobians would need navy to carry the war over to Estonia. And they do not have it - GoW has most probably just one galley ready to be deployed in the area... that is certainly less than enough... mounting an attack on Fortress Estonia would be extremely costly and not guaranteed to succeed.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX However, I am worried about the breakdown of our system of negotiations. Too many negotiations are going on in imprompteu chats that many in the team are not aware of. We have ambassadors and a Foreign Minister for a reason; currently those positions are not being utilitzed properly. I think it may be time to re-establish our diplomatic system, and start dealing and communicating via ambassador only. Information slips out here and there in random chats, and while it may seem like idle chatter, it can be things that that not everyone on the team would like divulged.

Well, in this very case, the ambassador (Tibi) WAS present (and FAM was invited to be there too, although not present eventually), even if just listening "behind the doors", and approved the idea. I fully understand your concerns, but it is technically quite difficult to "get back to the team" every time a new idea appears - sometimes, there is too little time to do so... additionally, I do not believe that it was the very idea of the map deal being proposed to Voxes that is causing some of you to disagree. It is the fact that I sent it on while not having the treaty signed yet - and regarding that, see my comment later in this post.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I would propose the following: -First of all, the FA establishes a list of "approved" items that anyone can discuss with other teams. That way if someone from a team messages you or meets you in a chat, you don't have to be completely silent with them. If they broach a topic not on the list, simply say "I cannot comment." They will understand; every team does it.

Now, this is something I support 100%.
Nimitz, will you start working on this?

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX -Deals should only be discussed by appropriate ambassadors or the FA. If you are not an amb, and someone mentions a deal, just tell them the amb will contact them shortly.

Respectfully, I would appreciate being also considered as a person authorized to at least propose and discuss deals.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX -NOTHING is sent to other teams without team approval. If no one objects, that equals approval. If even one person objects; convince them. If they aren't convinced, hold a vote. That's worked for us for many other areas, why not this one?

Well... ok... let's try it and see if it works... how long we wait before sending anything off? I mean... how long we wish to wait for the one that may not agree? 24 hours? I do not oppose the idea, I just want to know the rules we are setting.

Also, keep in mind, that if we make it a rule that once one of our members disagrees (and keeps disagreeing) with something, we hold a vote, we will most likely need up to 48-72 hours to move on with things... that's 2-3 turns. Just thought I would point that out.

quote: Originally posted by lmtoops Unbelieveable, after I posted a thread reminding Vondrack that this is a democracy he goes and makes the deal. Maybe he thought we were the RP team. From the tone of the chat log, I was afraid something like this would happen. [...snip...] This a serious breach of our democracy, but is forgiveable. My ranting is over and I support Vondrack as president.

Well, actually it was just the very opposite. I sent the map shortly after midnight my time, at a moment where I was convinced the deal was supported by me, redstar, Tiberius, yourself (judging from the posts in the forum), and not questioned by Nimitz, ZargonX, and Kloreep (all of them showed in the chatroom in the meantime, not objecting it). I felt like I had input enough to go on and send the map (considering how urgent I felt it was to provide the map to Voxes at our earliest convenience), as Sharpe was the only one vocally objecting... so I feel that even if I might have "misassessed" the situation, I hardly breached our democracy... as it's currently being used (very few polls, most often just "gauging" team's opinion - which is actually not beacuse we would be lazy to do it the "right way", but because 1-3 day polls are often not sutiable to do things in a game that often plays a turn in 24-36 hours). So far, this has been working quite nicely, this is the first occasion where a problem arose.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius The map is a huge advantage for Vox and this is good. This is why we gave it to them. We need the small teams to survive. We can't win this game fighting against one strong warmonger team, I hope you know that? Civ3 is just better suited for a warlike approach. I know that from my games. I am always more succesful when I go and fight instead of just build; always. We are a builder team in this game and if we want to win it we need to keep a balance between teams as much as possible and as long as possible, because otherwise we won't win! We might have t take some risks from time to time to help the small ones, but this is what we must do. We need the small teams, we need a balance of power, I can't emphisize this enough. We also need to keep the world divided and not united against us. This is why we wanted to help Lux and this is why we prefer to help a bit GoW and not RP or ND

I could not have said it better.

Helping the underdogs to keep the strong teams busy and not thinking of us is our primary concern, at least until we settle all of Legos, railroad every single tile and produce 200 arty pieces. Only then, we will be able to afford the luxury of not caring any more...

quote: Originally posted by redstar1 Almost everything done by this team has majority support of the team. I beleive the map deal is one of them. Maybe we should have had a poll about it but its a bit late now. I suggest in future that if anyone has any doubt over an issue, call for a poll. That gives 3 days more discussion on it before the votes are needed.

Another something I fully agree with. Let's make THIS our rule from now on. If anything proposed makes anyone feel very strongly about it, let he say "I want a vote held upon the issue". No need to actually post any rushed polls immediately, but it will be clear that I or anyone else actually making the decision is supposed to wait until things settle down completely, not just relying on a (possibly only seemingly) overwhelming support or lack of disagreement shown in the forum and chatroom.

	26-03-2003 20:46									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius So what? Where does it say that we can't give it? We didn't break any treaty, what's the problem?

Just a prediction....I did not mention any problems.

	26-03-2003 21:01									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Spotting BetaHound online earlier today, I thought I would talk to him briefly, emphasizing our concerns about the map security issues one more time and urging him to approve our Mono deal... surprisingly, the chat went in a bit different direction from what I anticipated and I learnt a good deal of interesting information... much more than I would have hoped for - here is a slightly edited version (I left out the chit-chat part in the beginning and some parts not related to our common busines... ISDG etc.):

quote: BetaHound: hehe - let me tell you vondrack: yes? BetaHound: I got in some heat for the deal vondrack: oh? really? LoL, me too BetaHound: many saw it as 50 gold for mono - and thought I had sold too quickly BetaHound: and ironically - no one thought the map of much value BetaHound: until it actually showed up vondrack: LoL vondrack: and now? BetaHound: now they seem OK with the deal BetaHound: vondrack: great BetaHound: what can I do to help vondrack: well, maybe if you can approve the deal? vondrack: ...or help make it happen in the near future vondrack: generally it was supported on our side BetaHound: eeek BetaHound: mono will happen as soon as as your GS trade happens BetaHound: and I will get the deal back to you today vondrack: yeah, that's great vondrack: we will have 100 gold ready for you on the next turn, one turn earlier BetaHound: sorry - it was paperwork - and we have been really busy with Bob vondrack: I understand, no problem BetaHound: great – thanks BetaHound: btw - when is your republic-curr-const trade suppose to happen vondrack: keep this to yourself, please BetaHound: lips are sealed vondrack: no later than on turn 84... but it is not signed yet BetaHound: what's the hassle with the price - GS want more? vondrack: well, ATM, it looks like they are thinking of something like Rep+40g for Curr+Constr BetaHound: vondrack: once we are able to get 50gold or more, we strike it vondrack: since it will effectively mean, we get what we wanted from the very beginning vondrack: but GS will not know and we would prefer leaving it that way vondrack: let they think how smart they were ripping us off, no problem BetaHound: they are fun to deal with aren't they? vondrack: yeah... ) BetaHound: that air of superiority... you should be their neighbors - a lesson in humility vondrack: LoL vondrack: are they in a position to do any harm to you? BetaHound: nah - fortress East Estonia vondrack: BetaHound: but - we keep an eye open just in case BetaHound: but I think they understand it would be costly vondrack: a question... if you do not answer, I will know what it means BetaHound: ok vondrack: do you have an agreement on sharing all techs with GS? BetaHound: had vondrack: oh? it has expired? BetaHound: Since their research has surpassed ours - and I think they have tired of us somewhat - it has gone more to a trade for trade relationship. vondrack: hmmm... that's interesting BetaHound: In the beginning - we had a huge advantage over them. vondrack: certainly opens up more manoeuvring room for both of you now BetaHound: We had met Lux and GoW and had BW and IW. We could have really gotten them behind early. BetaHound: We let them off the hook - started trading with them - and then opened the floodgates by providing contact with the others. vondrack: hmmm... another story of... sort of "ungratefulness" vondrack: many teams were/are wary of dealing with your teams, as they view yourselves and them as one vondrack: it may improve once you detach from each other... BetaHound: hmmm- that is interesting vondrack: yes, it is pretty much what Bobians believe, especially GoW BetaHound: hmm- thanks for the insight vondrack: you are welcome BetaHound: OK - well I will get the deal back to you today. Thanks again for the map. It is appreciated vondrack: ok, thanks a lot BetaHound: Let your people know we feel at our end that we are cementing relationships. BetaHound: That is clear from our folks. Your team has a great reputation vondrack: has it? BetaHound: yes vondrack: that's surprising... we haven't done too much yet vondrack: and sometimes we feel like everybody thinks we are dumb vondrack: trying such foolish tricks... dunno BetaHound: Anyway - cheers. Work beckons vondrack: ok, take care

	26-03-2003 21:46									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hmmm, VERY interesting indeed.... if only they had republic

	26-03-2003 22:24									#48
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As I have stated, I have less a problem with the actual trade of the map, and more with the breakdown of our system.

-The reason I did not include the president on the list of deal makers was that, at the moment, you are our primary dealer, Vondrack. That is all well and good, but what happens when you are out of office? The other teams will be used to dealing with you, and have a hard time adjusting to a new person. By keeping it with ambassadors, we don't have to worry about that too much. An ambassador is supposed to build a close relationship with a team, so no matter how the government around them changes, they still have that link.
-As for delays in deals; we are a small team, and I don't think I've seen any issues that have taken us more than 24 hours to resolve. We don't even need to hold polls most of the time, we can just discuss it until we reach an agreement. Therefore, I don't think it is that unreasonable to take a little time to address everyone's concerns. All of the points raised above by Tibi and redstar are valid, but they are all after the fact. If this discussion had gone on before you sent the map, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

So, that's my view. The trade itself is a very good one for us, and yes, helping Vox is in our interestes. We can deal with any reprecussions diplomatically in the future. The restructuring of our diplomatic machine is what I see as the major issue.

	26-03-2003 23:58									#49
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX -The reason I did not include the president on the list of deal makers was that, at the moment, you are our primary dealer, Vondrack. That is all well and good, but what happens when you are out of office? The other teams will be used to dealing with you, and have a hard time adjusting to a new person. By keeping it with ambassadors, we don't have to worry about that too much. An ambassador is supposed to build a close relationship with a team, so no matter how the government around them changes, they still have that link.

Well, yes... I understand the concern - OTOH, the fact is that different people are available online at different times and for different amounts of time. It is somehow logical that the greatest deal of "live" negotiations fall upon those that are most often online.

That said, you probably have no idea how much I'd love to have all interteam communications handled through ambassadors only (and I truly believe once we get out of this ancient-to-medieval combined with leaving-the-isolation mess, we WILL be able to handle diplomacy mostly this way). Believe me, my life in the last couple of days (maybe weeks) is a weird mixture of business, DG stuff, and lack of sleep... I just long for times when it will be less hectic.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX -As for delays in deals; we are a small team, and I don't think I've seen any issues that have taken us more than 24 hours to resolve. We don't even need to hold polls most of the time, we can just discuss it until we reach an agreement. Therefore, I don't think it is that unreasonable to take a little time to address everyone's concerns. All of the points raised above by Tibi and redstar are valid, but they are all after the fact. If this discussion had gone on before you sent the map, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

As I have already pointed out before... the Vox Mono deal (chatlog) was posted first for review and comments by the team and then there were almost 24 hrs before I decided I had input enough to go ahead with the deal, sending the map to Voxes. Yes, I considered the matter very urgent and I acted as soon as I felt there was input enough. I am sorry that this decision of mine has been perceived as rushed and exceeding my authorization.

On a rather humorous note... and this is not meant as an argument supporting the decision of mine that is now questioned so much, as I had no idea about it when sending the map off... have you noticed that until the map was sent, our deal with Voxes - however generous and beneficial it looked to us - was certainly less than guaranteed? Sometimes it is quite funny how parties involved in the deal feel about the value of items included...

	27-03-2003 10:55									#50
	Support Apolyton

I have one major point, I want us to keep a great reputation it will serve us well in this game team want someone they can trust if they can trust you they will hopefully be less likely to attack you and more friendly so please keep things on the up and up in diplomicy. Oh, vondrack I'll get on that list first thing in the morning.

	27-03-2003 22:40									#51
	Put an end to popups!

This has come from BetaHound:

quote: Vox-Lego Monotheism Trade Agreement of 1050BC Hereby, Vox Controli and Legoland agree upon that: 1) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 gold at its earliest convenience (no later than on its Turn 81, so that Vox Controli receives the money on its Turn 82). 2) Vox Controli will provide Legoland with the "free" technology granted to scientific civilizations upon entering the medieval ages (most probably Monotheism in this case) on the very turn Vox Controli receives it. 3) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 more gold immediately upon the receipt of the "free medieval" technology mentioned in the previous paragraph. 4) Vox Controli will repay 150 gold back to Legoland within 30 turns of receiving the second part of the "loan" (see the previous paragraph). 5) Both teams agree that it may be possible to negotiate using a technology to repay part or whole of the 150 gold "loan". 6) Legoland will not be allowed to resell/trade/gift the technology received from Vox Controli, unless expressly authorized by an amendment to this trade agreement. 7) Both teams agree to disclose no details of this trade agreement to a third party. Signed BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, and Director of the Voxian Economic Council, Vox Controli. 1050BC

After receiving the signed treaty, signing it and sending it back, I played our turn, sending Voxes the first part (100 gold) of money as per this treaty.

Monotheism secured.

	01-04-2003 16:31									#52
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Shouldn't we ask the Voxes if they need another loan? We have plenty of money and no use of it for more than 20 turns (we will have to upgrade our horses and to rush some building in Republic, but both these will happen well in the future).
We could offer 150-200 gold and ask for 200-250 gold in 20 turns (max. 30). That's 4-5 immortals They must do something now with them , or face elimination soon after. So anyway, our money is idling, I thought we must invest it somehow.

	01-04-2003 17:29									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have mentioned this possibility to BetaHound recently. He said he would keep it mind and ask in case they would be able to use the money.

	07-04-2003 04:50									#54
	Inflate your Upload Space

OK, big news today. Nimitz talked to BetaHound. Here is the chatlog:

quote: Session Start: Sun Apr 06 15:13:23 2003 Session Ident: betahound Chat with betahound Waiting for acknowledgement... DCC Chat connection established - Nimitz: hello betahound: Greetings! Nimitz: so hows Vox betahound: the sun shine todays - so Vox is fine. And you? Nimitz: very well betahound: one sec - plse. Nimitz: k betahound: k - I'm back. Nimitz: so what you think of GS betahound: Ah - our 'friends' to the south. Nimitz: things going that badly betahound: No - let me put it to you this way. betahound: You probably have some sense of what it is like dealing with them across the ocean - try living next door to them. betahound: betahound: Nimitz: yes you see there latest offer betahound: I hear feudalism is making the rounds. Nimitz: they think there right on everything betahound: Yes - the business with C+C, republic, and mono was messy. Nimitz: yes it was betahound: Sorry you guys got caught up in that nonsense. Nimitz: we still aren't happy they didn't do the NDA betahound: NDA? Nimitz: not to let others trade it betahound: North Dakota Acadamy? Nimitz: lol betahound: ah - OK. betahound: Ok - here is the trade situation with us and GS. betahound: Let me chat for a bit - and then I will say finished- OK? Nimitz: k betahound: In the early days - we had them over a barrel. We had both IW and BW, and contact with Lux and then GoW. betahound: We could have kept them in the dark for awhile. And maybe we should have. betahound: But we reached a very progressive trade arrangement - which clearly favoured them in the start. They got contacts they would not otherwise have. They got techs cheap that we had traded for. betahound: As time progressed, their economic 'might' passed ours. betahound: They had all the contacts. betahound: We really weren't need much any more. betahound: The trade arangement gets modified in their favour. betahound: I just did a recent calculation of the total beekers traded - and we are still 20 to the good. In other words we have 'provided' them more that they have 'provided' us. betahound: And that does not count the contacts. Nor half of the Luxian treasury they demanded even though they did nothing to help . betahound: So - that is us and GS. I'm finished. Nimitz: so you feel they owe you and they don't care Nimitz: they used you and threw you away betahound: Yes - something along those lines. A friend once needed is quickly dropped. Nimitz: yes well to bad Nimitz: legoland is not like that betahound: And we are certain they screwed us in the early land division of the continent. betahound: Yes - I agree. Lego have been great to deal with. Nimitz: we have had our share of betrayal betahound: betahound: And btw - thank-you for the recent deal/loan. It does help. betahound: Have you checked the military advisor screen recently? betahound: Nimitz: nope betahound: Does someone on Lego do it? Nimitz: the others have but not me Nimitz: the MA mostly Nimitz: Military Arcitech betahound: lol ... So - who do you think has the largest army right now? Nimitz: RP betahound: nope Nimitz: ND betahound: nope Nimitz: you betahound: yup betahound: And 80% immortals. Nimitz: hmm my theory could be right betahound: which is? Nimitz: when you go to war it will be RP Nimitz: and not ND betahound: nope Nimitz: well I don't expect you to say who, so don't worry there betahound: I will. Vox trusts Lego. Nimitz: ok betahound: And you should know. Nimitz: speak betahound: GS Nimitz: this is interesting betahound: two turns time betahound: scary Nimitz: they wont get Fue. Hhahahahhah Nimitz: is GoW helping betahound: ?? Nimitz: they are reseaching Fuedilism Nimitz: I'm saying they wont get it betahound: yes - that is our hope. Nimitz: GoW will help or they don't get Fue. betahound: GoW wants to walk the fine line between helping us, and forcing GS to give them feudalism betahound: Nimitz - are you on Poly right now? Nimitz: yes betahound: can I send you a pm, plse Nimitz: sure why not betahound: but stay here - OK Nimitz: I will Nimitz: you know we were trying to delay a deal with GS so the prise would drop betahound: yes - understood. Did you get my PM- and can you respond please. Thanks. Nimitz: ok let me check betahound: hello Nimitz: got disconected betahound: yes - also looks like poly went down Nimitz: great.... betahound: did you get my pm Nimitz: no lost the connection first betahound: Ok - I was just concerned - and bear with me here - as I know ony enough about mIRC and chats to get myslef into trouble ... betahound: how do I know you are Nimitx - and not some one from GS. betahound: betahound: That's why I sent the PM. Nimitz: because my nick is registered Nimitz: and passworded betahound: That's what i figured. betahound: Thanks - sorry for being so paranoid. Nimitz: and would kick me if I didn't write the pass betahound: Ok - back to the feudalism deal. betahound: I suspect you may get it for great price eventually. Nimitz: once GoW gets it, it will drop betahound: I don't think we will be able to prevent them from getting it - but hope to make a big enough dent before they do. betahound: yes - it will. The bargain basement crew. betahound: So - we are researching engineering. Nimitz: we know betahound: But slowly. Nimitz: 200 gold is to much Nimitz: RP cheated you betahound: ?? betahound: ?? on what? Nimitz: they would of given us engineering for Con= Curr betahound: OK - but I'm not sure how we got cheated. betahound: Maybe I am missing your point here. Sorry. betahound: point Nimitz: never mind Nimitz: you did mono betahound: yes betahound: Nimitz - help me here. What are we talking about? Nimitz: war and engineering betahound: OK - yes. betahound: and? betahound: But if you give them cash - it goes right to their war effort and upgrades. betahound: Nimitz: we aren't trading Nimitz: we will wait betahound: Bless you. Bless you. Nimitz: we can wait betahound: Nimitz: 200 is way to much betahound: yes. betahound: Care to put that to a good cause? Nimitz: well we were wondering about loanes betahound: The ABGS fund. betahound: Anyone But GS. Nimitz: Gow if we trade for it most likely betahound: Yes - I think GoW will come through on it. They have proven trustworthy so far. betahound: They are helping with the attack. betahound: Galleys with horsemen for the behind the lines stuff. betahound: They held us to ransom for engineering - on Friday evening - but by then they knew too much - and could cause serious issues if they pulled out. They knew it and stuck it to us. betahound: betahound: Nimitz? u there? Nimitz: yes betahound: oh -ok Nimitz: still talking with GS finishing up Nimitz: got them to wait 5 turns betahound: So - thank-you for the insights on feudalism and timing. Wish it was more like 15 turns. But every little bit helps. Thanks! betahound: btw - we traded world maps with GoW as art of the engineering deal where we got rooked. betahound: We can see the coast of Lego. betahound: Nimitz: oh bad GoW bad Nimitz: we should not of let them look Nimitz: lol betahound: yes. You are not a big fan? Nimitz: we like our privicy betahound: Yes- understood. betahound: So here's the plan. Just so you know. betahound: There will be some public sabre rattling between us and GoW and talk about us going back to Bob. Nimitz: ok betahound: Two turns from now we take out a GS observer that is parked on a road south. That means declaring war. Some 5 turns later we hit their first city with a large force of immortals. Nimitz: ok be careful betahound: We have a plan to continue to pump out immortals and wear them down. It will require cash. We may be in touch. betahound: If it looks like it is going to flop completely - we will cut our losses and see what kind of peace we can make - but for now - we are committed to eliminating them. betahound: Yes - we will be. Thanks. Nimitz: well gtg bye cya later betahound: do you have 3 more minutes - something else to talk about. Nimitz: ok Nimitz: what is it? betahound: long term - you should be aware that Gow's plan is for GoW and NeuD and Vox to take out GS, RP ,a nd Lego, in that order. betahound: I think we can agree to the first two. betahound: Nimitz: we have had our guards up to that betahound: We have already committed to the attack on RP. Nimitz: I thought you would attack RP betahound: And I believe that once that is underway - there will be a prime opportunity for Lego and Vox to finish the whole thing and turn Bob into a wildlife sanctuary. Nimitz: lol betahound: As NeuD and GoW attack RP from te north - and we will have troops landed on the souther coast - we wait a sufficient # of turns for them to beat each other up ... Nimitz: you sent 2 PMs betahound: and the we sweep in from the north, and roll up GoW, NeuD and what is left of RP. betahound: yes - double send. Same note. Sorry. betahound: That is the long-term plan which we are envisioning. betahound: It will make the game shorter. Nimitz: well gtg now bye talk later betahound: We will chat soon? Nimitz: if you want betahound: yes - it would be good - will be in touch betahound: bye betahound: thanks!! Nimitz: bye Session Close: Sun Apr 06 16:28:36 2003

I will think this over and add my comments in a little while. Right now, I feel a very strong urge to help Voxes in every possible way - because of both rational and emotional reasons.

Voxes are apparently very much on our side - they would not tell us something THIS important just to look "friendly". It is obvious they see us as their ultimate ally (note the part of the chatlog about the future plans to attack Legoland). It would be extremely nice if Voxes eliminate GS, who are our only notable scientific match ATM (and probably for the whole game). Losing the main competitor, while gaining a trustworthy ally would be great... but this is just a very early reaction of mine - I will think this over and elaborate in details tomorrow.

	07-04-2003 09:41									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree, Voxes still deserve our support, both because they are productively weak (and thus we won't create a superpower) and because they have been a fair and friendly team, unlike most. I'd definitely support them against GS; knock out some competition.

But I don't want to throw the RPers to the wolves, and the idea of eliminating them worries me. A war with ND to blunt their growth would be a good thing - they do have nice territory, and we don't want any powerful team in the future - but their elimination would create a superciv out of ND, especially if ND got most of the spoils.

Hopefully, GoW will backstap ND as the speculation goes. But what if they don't? And even if they do, they could crush ND between themselves and the RPers, leaving super-GoW. However it's cut, a two-civ Bob is way too powerful. If the RPers do face extinction, either from ND now or GoW later, I think we need to prop them up. They aren't the top team on my "save their butts" list, but we need to keep Bob's power relatively balanced.

	07-04-2003 11:04									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm all for supporting Vox in this war.

First of all, they seem very friendly, honest and trustworthy. Actually I'm quite sure they are, not just "seem to be". (besides I wouldn't help GS even if they were the weakest team around)
Second: they are far from us and not a threat.
Third: Having a powerful civ next to Bob can be only good for us, as Bob will be be looking eastwards not SW, and we can continue our rexing and build our infrastructure and military, preparing for the inevitable final war(s).

In reaction to Kloreep's speculation about eliminating RPs: well, eliminating any civ on Bob is worrying. Should the RPs become too powerfull by eliminating ND for ex (with the help of GoW) is not any better than ND eliminating RP. Besides GoW has almost nothing to gain from conquering RP, they are far to far from them, so most likely they will turn against ND at some point. I'm sure that in the end there will be one strong team on Bob, one strong team on Estonia and us. That will be the decisive turning point, when we no longer can stay aside and watch.

Anyway, first things first: I would propose a very advantageous loan to Vox, because they need the money ASAP, before entering their golden ages, when they will have plenty of gold. So my proposal would be something like this: a 200 gold loan, given by us now, and they would start a gpt return (11gpt) once they entered their GA (the repay could be negotiable: it could be 5 gpt and 150 gold at the end of their GA).

PS I checked last night the mil. adv from the latest save and I was preparing to tell you today that something big is happening because the Voxes now have a strong military compared to us. Well, I'm a little late to say it, I think

	08-04-2003 08:02									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, so much for Voxian honesty (although I think they mean the northeast portion of the continent not the northwest) - At least we know why they nearly took the full 24 hours to complete their turn:
_______________________________________

Vox Public Announcement - Operation MacArthur


Operation MacArthur

This is to advise the world's nations that Vox Controli has returned to the continent. We have tried to negotiate a mutually-beneficial agreement with the continental nations, but as of yet have not reached such a comprehensive agreement.

We come in peace. But we come in force.

Our claim is to the small portion of the north-west corner of the continent. We can discuss this rationally, and we will explain our needs for a maximum settlement of five cities - fairly tightly packed. We can even agree on city placement, and we will sign an agreement that this will be the extent of any claim we have on the continent. We would also ask that the city of Wittlich West be peacefully returned to its rightful owners - the Voxian people. We are willing to come to any reasonable agreement on this matter.

However, we are willing to defend our claim to this land. In fact, the operation is so named as the last Vox leader to leave the continent after our earlier expedition claimed "People of Wittlich West - I will return". He is committed to staying this time. And Vox Controli has ensured that he has the military backing to keep that commitment.

If war is the path chosen, such a war of attrition will only serve to weaken all the nations involved - at the expense of those involved. So, I plead for reason to prevail in this matter. Let peace and prosperity carry the day.

We are open to discuss this matter at any time. Please contact any member of our team if you wish to talk.

Peace.

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

______________________________________

Well, either things have changed or they have LIED to us. Or they are being really stupid by trying to attack GS and land on Bob at the same time.

Are you sure that we should support these guys anymore? Let's see if GoW or another Bob civ is on their side this time before we make any committments now...

You know that ND will not support any Voxian claim to any of their part of Bob - this will undoubtedly mean war... If Bob unites against them again, Vox will be finished as GS may not stand for it or may try to take advantage of it.

	08-04-2003 08:27									#58
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Well, I guess another possibility is that this is all part of some bizzare plan between them and GoW. Use the Bob landing as a feint to get ND to commit some forces to the east, and then Vox goes after GS and GoW goes after ND. RP involvement too? I dunno. We might want to clamp down the diplomatic hatches for a bit and see what develops.

	08-04-2003 09:49									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

Why are so quick to judge Sharpe?

Didn't Beta say that there will be a public rattling between them and GoW in public? So, there it is.

We know nothing yet. Let's see first what they're doing and in a few turns we will know.

	08-04-2003 09:53									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, of course, Tibi is 100% right - just found a PM from Beta... this is just a ruse to deceive GS and lead them into believing Voxes are actually going to invade Bob. Nothing has changed, everything proceeds as planned and announced before.